if you cant get to a dyno and dont have a wide band kit does it do any good to data log everything else and send it to mike.i think i know the answer but thought i would ask anyway.

 

As you already seem to know - datalogging without a/f's is not gonna do you any good.... assume you have XC1 or XC2.
If you send it to Troyer it'll probably get tossed.......

Check out - www.tuneyourengine.com - which is Inovate Motorsports site for wideband O2's, etc.... I'm sure ther are others.
I purchased the LM-1 a/f logger with the XD-1 guage from Troyer, and they are very nice.
My goal is to do complete datalogging at my convenience.
The guage is a pricey little option, but it was too cool for me to pass-up.

 

I was wondering the same thing. I don't know of any places with a dyno machine here in Arkinsaw. So does this mean if I can't find a dyno to get my A/F ratios I might as well quit saving my pennies for my XCal 2? Seems like I saw a dyno locater link on here some where but I can't remember where.

 

Blyoth: Unless you have some MAJOR mods done to your truck, there isn't much need for the A/F datalogging to be done against your truck. Some things that make you a candidate for needing A/F and full datalogging for custom tunes for your truck (05 F150) are non-standard/verified intakes (anything that Troyer doesn't sell I believe), forced induction, anything major engine wise (cams, etc). I have JBA headers and MagnaFlow exhaust and currently I do not need A/F datalogging, however if I want to add my 3rd party CAI and use it (safely) then I need to datalog to make sure I'm not overly lean and if so, have Troyer accomodate for that.

Edit: I see Mike Troyer has actually started suggesting people do datalogging if they have any concerns because of the variations they're seeing in these trucks in stock form. I still somewhat stand by what I said above, however Mike has seen some stock trucks that are borderline or overly lean and unsafe, in complete stock form, so take my comment with a grain of salt I guess. I'd trust Mike over me most any day!

 

Here are some Dyno jet facilitys in Arkinsaw http://www.dynojet.com/maps/autodynos/ar.htm

 

Thanks Chucks. 3 of those 5 shops are motorcycle shops. The central located one in Bryant appears to be shut down. That leaves me the one last hope in Springdale. It is ove 200 miles one way but I guess I could make the trip if absolutely needed. I will give them a call if Mike says it is a must. What say you Mike? Was DevilSun way off base to say that if you have a lightly modified late model 5.4 3V data logging is not a must. The only thing I have done or plan to do to my truck other than XCal 2 is a flowmaster single in dual out. Yeah I know you prefer the magnaflow but I didn't at the time of instalation.

 

Blyoth, I was just reading this other thread (more specifically start at post#10) and Mike talks about the datalogging and may help clarify some stuff for you. I had never even read that other thread, so it informed me a little. I believe that most of the A/F problems revolve most all around changing the intake tract because of the difference in the MAF sensor systems prior to these newer vehicles. Intake can much more severely affect the end result of combustion compared to exhaust because of the direct effect it has on the combustion, and more so with these 3-valve engines since they have 2 intake valves and 1 exhaust valve. See, exhaust is a result of the combustion, and the only real factor in exhaust is the amount of unburnt gas...thus O2 sensors and "cats". However, intakes directly affect the fuel mapping vs. the amount (cubic volume) and flow of air, therefore the results are much more dramatic. Although Mike's tuned who knows how many of these trucks both on and off the dyno, I'm going to go ahead and say that 9.999 out of 10 (if not 10 of 10) times, people only doing exhaust related stuff and an X2 will not see a problem nor will require datalogging with A/F (however this is cheap to do if you're willing to mod your truck IMO). As soon as you touch the intake side, I'd be a little skeptical of "out of the box" guaranteed perfect stuff...Mike has seen too much variation (and passed on the info to us) for me to even be close to satisified just replacing my intake especially since I have a 3rd party one. Maybe Mike will back me up, change what info I've posted that might be wrong, or just generally add some info here. Needless to say, I love my X2, even without an intake

 

I modified the exhaust on my 2004 6.0 PSD and the whistle of the turbo spooling up was enough to cause me to sell it and get the 2005 FX4 Supercrew. My wife was pretty pissed. I am afraid my wife would kill me if I modified the intake on the new truck and she heard any thing close to a whistle. So I am pretty much stuck with the stock intake. I can't believe she let me put the duals on the screw. I don't want to put my motor at risk by running lean but I would love to get some extra power out of my truck especially towing my 4000lb race trailer with the xcal 2. I am very limited to dyno machinces in my area.

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Hi GP & everyone,

Datalogging without obtaining the A/F's is worthless for the purposes of evaluating engine tuning, or making any engine tuning changes. So the wideband A/F's are a must - whether the parts on the vehicle came from us or not.

It's funny how what I refer to loosely as "long term odds" can bite you sometimes - I say that simply because in the past couple of months, we are seeing more and more bone stock 2004 & up vehicles with 3-valve engines (2004 & up 5.4 3V F-150, 2005 & up 4.6 3V Mustang, etc.) that have A/F's that are far too lean in showroom stock condition. We haven't seen much of that before. I'm beginning to feel that I'd like to see datalogs on every darn vehicle ever made that uses the new MAF system that all 3-valve engines use, as well as for all ETC (electronic throttle control) vehicles from Ford. Of course, that's a bit of silly & unrealistic nonsense, I'm just thinking out loud here.

At a bare minimum, we want to see ALL vehicles that we have tuned be datalogged, so that we can really do our job properly - and that is nothing new, remember, as the only way *any* custom tune is completed is by datalogging and making any adjustments if needed. We might find no significant changes are needed, but overall, the newer the vehicle, the more tuning changes are needed with simple bolt-on modifications, and THAT is something that is very new overall in the typical FoMoCo vehicle ownership experience - which is why some of you have seen us discussing this more and more here of late.

No, I do NOT feel that it's a waste to get an XCal 2, you simply need to datalog at some point after installing it - and the XCalibrator 2 is capable of datalogging everything we need with the sole exception of A/F ratios - so drag your XCalibrator 2 & a Windoze XP PC (or laptop) along to the dyno with you and you can record everything else while the dyno guys get the A/F's for you - (or come to one of our Dyno Days and we'll do it all for you). And even when you have to go to some dyno to get A/F's while you record everything else, well that only costs you maybe $75 for 3 pulls at many places - so datalogging is NOT any kind of significant additional expense.

Here's the bottom line - the only vehicles that present a problem with not achieving the commanded A/F (meaning those that end up running lean) with performance tuning are ONLY those vehicles that are running too lean in BONE STOCK trim, too!!!

And THAT is what we are starting to see more of as more time goes by with the 3-valve FoMoCo engines - as many of you read, at our last dyno day we had a TEM7 that nailed perfect 12.0:1 A/F;s, while another TEM7 could barely manage 15.0:1 A/Fs in bone-stock trim - THAT* is what I'm talking about, is those seemingly inexplicable variances that we must correct in tuning - your Ford dealership certainly can't correct it, as it's in the Mass Air Sensor's Transfer Function.

And by the way, for GP (Gil) - I hear you'll be making it down to our dyno day, good for you! It'll be nice to get a chance to see you!

I hope that brief info get the point across - remember, it's only those vehicles that are running lean BONE STOCK that are causing problems and thus needing to be datalogged when tuned, no matter whether they have any other modifications done or not - this is something that starts with the F-150 in the 2004 model year, and does not affect the 2003 & earlier trucks, basically. So don't even think it's in our tuning, or about tuning as it's really not at all - it's in the vehicle STOCK right from the factory, and only affects a few of them overall.

 

Is obtaining A/F ratios something that all dyno guys should be familiar with? When I call them what do I ask? Can you measure A/F ratios? I just figured all they were there for was to measure rear wheel HP. Is one trip to the dyno all that is needed to data log?

 

you asked my question for me i've never been around a dyno or know much about them.. i looked up a couple places that have them around my area. i keep reading about hooking up a laptop, which i think i could get my brothers if i had to, but if i go to a dyno arent they going to get me all the numbers i need and some sort print out with them?

 

What can be done to correct a truck that is running lean BONE STOCK?

 

I bet they're running lean in stock form because that helps the gas mileage and Ford wants to push that envelope to be able to put up gas mileage number a little better than what they can do.

 

my guess would be that if you know for sure it is running lean then take it to the dealer and have them fix it.

 

Mike said...
...this is what he's talking about. Unfortunately, you need A/F #s along with the normal datalogging for Mike to really help you correctly here if this is in fact your case. As far as A/F, all people running a dyno should know whether or not if they can monitor A/F, and I'd be surprised if they can't -- however, they'll only give you the A/F based off RPM...and I believe in conjunction with that, Mike needs certain information from other modules/parameters/values of the vehicle at those same RPM points to adjust things correctly, such as the MAS transfer function. I'm sure he could make the tune "better" with just A/F, but it might take a few tries being that he'd only have partial information. Give him the whole gamut of information and let him tune it right the first time (or as close as possible) I think is what he's getting at. Sounds like Mike loves and hates the MAS transfer function