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Funny, these new PCM modules have only been around a YEAR and have lots of new stuff... so threads from 1990 are worthless to me and the information does not apply. My older Ford models never varied this much.

I still don't get how a fresh tune steals .5 a second off my 0-60 times yet give noticable more grunt off the line...

MGD - I started with 6psi over stock. I think this is what stock should feel like. Firmer shifts but little to zero impact on the daily comfort driving factor. I might up it to 10psi and see what it feels like. From what the 'superchips' setting was, it felt like it maxed out the shift pressure. I'm really bummed you can't tell it you want the neck-snapping shifts at WOT ONLY... and give me the squishy shifting all other times.

 

edit: I have mine set on the Superchips setting
I kinda like the way my truck shifts. If I stomp on it, it shifts pretty hard and if I don't it is smooth. It's not going to get rubber into second at 1/2 throttle, but who cares. I don't like the idea of having harsh shifts in a tranny that hasn't been modified. Seems to me like there's only so much the computer needs to do.

As for adaptive learning, I think it's a necassary evil. People used to have to stop and adjust the timing and all kinds of crap when they drove to different altitudes. And as far as the tire shredding power...dude it's a freakin $30,000 screw!! Go buy you a $3500 stick mustang and dump the clutch and burn em all day. Or do what I did...got a job with an '05 Chevy work truck. Anything will lay some rubber doing a neutral drop-down from 5 grand.

 

I can't believe I'm on the only one wonder why on earth there is mucho amount more torque after a fresh tune and yet after a couple tanks I can't even get the tires to CHIRP from a standstill. WTF is this crap? What is going on that causes such a power loss? 1-3% my ****. Yet I'm obviously gaining power elsewhere as the truck gets faster in its run to 60. It's not that I want to roast the tires constatnly... but I DO want to really understand WHAT is happening... simply saying "Durrrrr... the PCM learns stuff to save on gas 'n stuff" doesn't cut it. I'm guessing nobody but the fine folks at FoMoCo can answer this one...

 

Maybe you should take the computer off and put on a carburator

Didn't you say that on the old tune you did a best of 8.75 and on the fresh tune on a best of 9.3? Seems to me like tire slippage is not the best indication of hp and torque. I do think that if we had the Troyer tune the throttle response would better and make it seem to have more snap off of the line. Like I said...I think it's just a necassary evil. You wouldn't want to drive it without it. If Troyer, Superchips and all these other tuners haven't done a way with it, I'm sure there's a reason for it to be there. Otherwise I guess you could get you a datalogger and software and tune it yourself.

 

Hi. Yah, I guess I'd wonder about it if it was happening to me, but it's not. But then again, I'm running custom tuning created by the best.

And soooo - the next advice is: Perhaps it's time to flog the 1714 in the classifieds, and invest in an Xcal2 with custom tunes by.... well, need I say?

Sure looks like you are not real happy with it as it stands. There is a way to quickly ( ok, maybe not quickly, but like 2 weeks) get ya REAL happy - you have a beautiful truck there, it deserves the best.

Cheers!
Grog

 

So the adaptive strategy has no affect on *custom tuning* yet it does on the other tuners mentioned?

Or is it so minimal that only a few notice? One way or the other?

To be honest, I never could tell a difference in ride from Monroe's and Blistiens. But some people claim they can.

 

Well from what's been said... it doesn't matter what kind of tune it is, the PCM will still adapt and screw stuff up. But maybe with that extra oompphh the custom tune gives you it may or may not be as noticeable. IMHO, my 91+ tune with the 1714 afer a few tanks feels very stock-ish. No more tire squeeling and funky shifting. Fresh tune feels like a monster off the line but less top-end HP and overall a slower truck until it 'learns'. See the catch-22 here? I want that rip-roarin' power off the line like when I first load a tune, yet want those extra top-end ponies it unleashing during it's learning phase...

So... why can't I have both?!

 

I think this PCM is a slow learner... several runs, driving like an animal to teach it my wicked ways... and I'm running anywhere from 9.3 to 9.5 in the 0-60. ¼ is done in the high 16s a tad over 80mph. Still .75 seconds or so off my pre-re-tuned times... my PCM rides the short bus... great...

 

Not that anyone cares... but apparently I hurt my PCMs feelings and it decided to learn a little faster. 60 miles or so more on the odo and it now rips to 60 in 8.8 seconds and ran the ¼ in 16.5 at 83mph or so. Darn close to HEMIville. Well, the 0-60 is nearly a second behind a Hemi thanks to the PCM killing the power down-low as usual.

All this leads me to believe the PCM doesn't really give a crap about your driving style and adjust to you. I ran this thing like a raped ape and the PCM still decided I didn't need any punch off the line. No more tire spin... maybe a chirp if I'm lucky. I also lost 2mpg's thus far... and suspect it will take 3 or 4 more tanks to get back to the mid-15s.

We'll see how the other mods effect this behavior...

 

We need an adaptive strategy disable switch! It should have 2 settings: Normal and Crazy Go Nuts!

 

Yeah, but the problem is you get off the line grunt but no top-end HP pre-AS. My poor truck is slow as a dog after a fresh tune, with more low end torque. Then that AS crap kicks in, steals the torque and gives to the HP... stupit PCM.

 

There are no "stupid PCM's" - only people who don't understand don't' datalog anything, and thus want to blame the PCM for all the things they don't understand. Heck, 20 years ago even I used to say some of the same things back when PCM's first came along and we really didn't understand them well!

There ARE in fact many posts here via SEARCH that DO apply to your vehicle, dzervit - every post discussed adaptive applies to you and far more. I seriously doubt that adaptive has much to do with your situation - adaptive can only affect power by 3-4% at the most anyway - so no, that is not your real problem, it is only a tiny contributing factor, I'd say.

More likely is the fact that there is no data whatsoever - no ambient or Inlet Air temperatures whatsoever - no humidity levels - no barometric pressures - no calculated elevation #'s - in fact, there is no datalogging whatsoever - so you have no idea what the operating conditions really were/are, and of course no idea whatsoever just what the powertrain itself was doing in response - and *that* is the info that must be had in order to be able to make any meaningful comparison. Every time you make a pass you are putting *tremendous* heat into that vehicle.

When we dyno vehicles we have HUGE high-speed fans that produce airflow well in excess of what road speed provides, so that we cna stabilize all powertrain temperatures & other operational conditions, so that we can actually get proper back-to-back comparisons. Now even doing that, any time you flash that PCM you are going to lose 10+ HP for a few hundred miles or more, no 2 ways about that in thee PowerPC-based PCM's that are in the 2004 & newer F-150's, and almost that much effect in the older EEC-based PCM's, too. So never think you can do anything back to back like you are trying and expect it to be meaningful - it doesn't work like that - you're probably boiling the fuel in the rails, cooking the engine oil and the tranny fluid, as well as the differential fluids, etc. And all of that affects power and performance - significantly.

We explain all of this in great detail to all of our Troyer Performance *custom* tuning customers in our Datalogging instructions - and the people who use that data get a very good understanding of this and realize what's actually going on.

Pounding on the truck run after run only causes all powertrain temps to soar, and you quickly hit oil temp & other temp caps that reduce power in various areas, and I suspect that is more of what's going on here - along with normal changes to ambient, humidity, & baro - than anything else. You can't possibly stabilize those temps just in the time it takes to flash the PCM, or even in TWICE the time it takes to flash the PCM, etc.

It really gets down to having proper data, gentleman - and just measuring 0-60 times is only 1 piece of data that tells you NOTHING - other than what the 0-60 time was. It tells you absolutely nothing about WHY it was what it was, or what the powertrain was really doing, how much timing was being delivered to the engine (and WHY), how power was being limited, and from which of the 18+ different torque controlling sources, and on and on.

Plain and simple, this is just a lack of understanding how the PCM really works, and a failure to properly datalog - that's all. And it's a mistake that most of us make - until we get a better understanding, this is why we provide that information to all of our custom tuning customers, so they can provide us with the data we must have to evaluate the need for any tweaks to our custom tuning.

I seriously doubt that there is anything "wrong" with this vehicle, or that "adaptive " has anywhere near as much to do with this as is being currently blamed on it.

What would really be nice for dzervit is if he could dome down here and attend one of our dyno days, to see just what all we look at and how this really works. If you can dezervit, drop us an email to salew@troyerperformance.com and let us know where you are, etc., so we cna see if we can fit you in for a dyno day session. If you are too far away, then there are inexpensive datalogging packages that will allow you to properly monitor exactly what the powertrain is doing so you can understand exactly why it does what it does, and thus have a better grip on how the performance of your truck varies - and most importantly - WHY.

Remember, without knowing the ECT/CHT. timing, EOT, TOT, Ambient temps, humidity level, baro pressure, elevation, and other data for each and every run, and doing them under properly controlled conditions, you really don't have anything to make relevant comparisons by.

This is just a little quick FYI stuff to try to help you understand why you are seeing some of whats going on there, dzervit - don't hate your truck, or it's PCM, or adaptive strategy, they help you far more than you know, my friend.

Best of luck,

 

Ahhhh.. I figured as much as I mock what I do not understand. I'm looking at it from a knuckle-dragging end user at the very highest level... But I want to understand what the heck is going on. I want to know why I lose the bottom end and gain speed, regardless of engine temp.

Sooooo... what datalogging packages do you suggest? And any good books/online tutorials/etc to aid in truely understanding & interpreting the data? I wish I was close to 'ya, but alas I live in Michigan. I guess it's off to the search button to find some more answers.

 

Attaboy, Search King!

Check out:

http://www.troyerperformance.com/cgi...ory=Appearance

http://www.troyerperformance.com/cgi...catalogno=9400

... and some tutorials here ( dig around - there's a few, specific to the X2)

http://www.sctflash.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=76

I'm sure there are tons more resources, but I only had a few seconds, and hey, I already know I'm not a SearchMeister like you!

Like any really good useful tools, you learn best by using them ( a lot).

BTW - you need a laptop for some of these things.

Cheers!