reliability with a tuner??
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reliability with a tuner??
im looking into getting a tuner for my 04 with a 5.4. i was wondering if it will hurt reliability in the long run. like if i run this thing on my truck, am i gonna have tranny problems becuase of the firmer shifts? or more engine wear because of the higher rev limiter and shift points? im really wanting some more to get this mass moving, especially once i start towing my baja to the coast all the time
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Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
Hi takotruckin,
That is one of the most common concerns that new vehicle owners have - and it certainly *is* true that if a tuner doesn't really know the specific vehicle platform well, it is possible to do things that can damage the vehicle - absolutely!
Now let's get to the heart of it - Will our Troyer Performance custom tuning hurt your vehicle's basic durability & reliability?
The answer is no.
For example, the firmer shifting that happens at heavier throttle does not hurt the transmission the way we do it - in fact, it actually tends to *increase* the service life of the friction materials, meaning things like the bands, clutches, etc. That is due to the reduced slippage - reducing the amount of slippage reduces the amount of heat generated - and heat is the #1 enemy of an automatic transmission.
And the engine is not going to be hurt or it's service life reduced because it can turn a few hundred more rpms if you nail the accelerator all the way to the floor to accelerate, like when getting on the Interstate, or passing another vehicle, etc. These engines are not that fragile - if they were, there would be problems even in stock trim in many cases. There is a significant amount of over-engineering in these trucks, because they are trucks and thus tend to be treated rougher than cars are, etc. The 5.4 3V F-150's have a low WOT upshift point anyway, about 4700-4800 rpm - many of them cannot hit their maximum peak power in stock trim because they are being shifted too low. The engine itself can safely turn a bit more rpm than the stock upshift points are set at from the factory - for example, the connecting rods are designed to be good to 6000 rpm, and that engine has a beautiful forged steel crankshaft as well. Of course, we don't spin a stock 5.4 motor to anything like 6000 rpm or anywhere close to it, because that simply is not appropriate. The weakest link in the powertrain is generally the stock torque converter, which is good to about 5400-5500 rpm. If you turn more than that on any kind of frequent basis, it can start to "balloon."
We do not allow the engine to turn enough rpms to damage it or the automatic transmission - we set the WOT (Wide Open Throttle) upshift points well within the limits of the components of the powertrain. You can wind it a little bit higher by holding it in gear manually, but if you do that we engage torque management once you exceed a certain rpm, exactly so you don't start hurting components - and shifting it manually puts the transmission into it's "hot" (overheat mode) schedules anyway, which are designed to protect it.
The deal is, as long as you maintain the vehicle properly and don't drive it like a race car every time you get behind the wheel, you will not have any shortening of the basic service life of the powertrain from using our tuning - we have many F-150's that have been running our tuning for 150K miles and more, for example.
It really boils down to a matter of the tuner's expertise & knowledge of this specific platform, and we've specialized in F-150 performance for 14 years - so we know them pretty well. We know what the various powertrains can generally take, and what they can't - we own these same vehicles and we run every part that we sell on our own vehicles, including our own tuning - we have the exact same concerns any other F-150 owner has, these are expensive vehicles and they need to last.
The bottom line is, you can use our custom tuning and it won't hurt the truck - as long as you treat the truck decently and give it proper maintenance, you're going to have a normal service life.
Give us a call to go over this in any more detail, or to place your order and get your special discount since you are a registered member of F-150 Online - our number is listed just below for your convenience.
I hope this info helps a bit, & best of luck whatever you decide!
That is one of the most common concerns that new vehicle owners have - and it certainly *is* true that if a tuner doesn't really know the specific vehicle platform well, it is possible to do things that can damage the vehicle - absolutely!
Now let's get to the heart of it - Will our Troyer Performance custom tuning hurt your vehicle's basic durability & reliability?
The answer is no.
For example, the firmer shifting that happens at heavier throttle does not hurt the transmission the way we do it - in fact, it actually tends to *increase* the service life of the friction materials, meaning things like the bands, clutches, etc. That is due to the reduced slippage - reducing the amount of slippage reduces the amount of heat generated - and heat is the #1 enemy of an automatic transmission.
And the engine is not going to be hurt or it's service life reduced because it can turn a few hundred more rpms if you nail the accelerator all the way to the floor to accelerate, like when getting on the Interstate, or passing another vehicle, etc. These engines are not that fragile - if they were, there would be problems even in stock trim in many cases. There is a significant amount of over-engineering in these trucks, because they are trucks and thus tend to be treated rougher than cars are, etc. The 5.4 3V F-150's have a low WOT upshift point anyway, about 4700-4800 rpm - many of them cannot hit their maximum peak power in stock trim because they are being shifted too low. The engine itself can safely turn a bit more rpm than the stock upshift points are set at from the factory - for example, the connecting rods are designed to be good to 6000 rpm, and that engine has a beautiful forged steel crankshaft as well. Of course, we don't spin a stock 5.4 motor to anything like 6000 rpm or anywhere close to it, because that simply is not appropriate. The weakest link in the powertrain is generally the stock torque converter, which is good to about 5400-5500 rpm. If you turn more than that on any kind of frequent basis, it can start to "balloon."
We do not allow the engine to turn enough rpms to damage it or the automatic transmission - we set the WOT (Wide Open Throttle) upshift points well within the limits of the components of the powertrain. You can wind it a little bit higher by holding it in gear manually, but if you do that we engage torque management once you exceed a certain rpm, exactly so you don't start hurting components - and shifting it manually puts the transmission into it's "hot" (overheat mode) schedules anyway, which are designed to protect it.
The deal is, as long as you maintain the vehicle properly and don't drive it like a race car every time you get behind the wheel, you will not have any shortening of the basic service life of the powertrain from using our tuning - we have many F-150's that have been running our tuning for 150K miles and more, for example.
It really boils down to a matter of the tuner's expertise & knowledge of this specific platform, and we've specialized in F-150 performance for 14 years - so we know them pretty well. We know what the various powertrains can generally take, and what they can't - we own these same vehicles and we run every part that we sell on our own vehicles, including our own tuning - we have the exact same concerns any other F-150 owner has, these are expensive vehicles and they need to last.
The bottom line is, you can use our custom tuning and it won't hurt the truck - as long as you treat the truck decently and give it proper maintenance, you're going to have a normal service life.
Give us a call to go over this in any more detail, or to place your order and get your special discount since you are a registered member of F-150 Online - our number is listed just below for your convenience.
I hope this info helps a bit, & best of luck whatever you decide!
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ok, that was what i was wanting to hear. i also talked to my service manager today about warranty, and he said they dont care as long as the vehicle is returned to stock for service. so, whats the estimated turn around time on an xcal2??
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
Right now for new orders that time is running approximately 10-14 business days (not calendar days!)from the time we receive the competed Custom Program Worksheets from the customer, until we usually have the tuning done and are ready to ship it out the door.
Here's how it works:
When you place your order, we send you an email with about 24 hours or so that contains our detailed CPW's (Custom Program Worksheets) They are a simple set of fill-in-the-blank forms where we ask you about every type of modification to the vehicle and a few aspects of it's maintenance history, etc., just so we have a written record of exactly what is on the vehicle and what kind of condition it is in, etc. - whether it's brand new, bone stock, heavily modified, or 20 years old, everyone provides that info so that we have a written record so there cannot be any mistakes or misunderstanding, etc. - you know, just covering the basics.
The customer fills them out & Fax's them back to us, and that's when your order actually go into line time-frame wise. From that point, it's running roughly about 10-14 *working* days until we have the tuning work done, and are ready to actually ship the unit. From there it's just a matter of where we're shipping to and how quickly the customer wants it shipped - Ground, 3-days, 2-Day, Overnight, etc.
Glad to hear your service manager has a common sense attitude toward this, and when you get your new custom tune from us, you will see in our documentation that we advise the exact same thing when you go in for service, whether the vehicle is under warranty or not - go back to the stock tune. This is simply so that a service tech doesn't have any additional things to potentially deal with if they have a real nagging intermittent type of problem and have to really go digging out the break-out box, or if they need to update the PCM, etc., so it's just good common sense to do on any vehicle.
Please feel free to give us a call to go over any of this in more detail, and to place your order too - since you are a registered member of F-150 Online, you get a special additional discount on all of our Troyer Performance turning products!
Good luck & talk to you soon!
Here's how it works:
When you place your order, we send you an email with about 24 hours or so that contains our detailed CPW's (Custom Program Worksheets) They are a simple set of fill-in-the-blank forms where we ask you about every type of modification to the vehicle and a few aspects of it's maintenance history, etc., just so we have a written record of exactly what is on the vehicle and what kind of condition it is in, etc. - whether it's brand new, bone stock, heavily modified, or 20 years old, everyone provides that info so that we have a written record so there cannot be any mistakes or misunderstanding, etc. - you know, just covering the basics.
The customer fills them out & Fax's them back to us, and that's when your order actually go into line time-frame wise. From that point, it's running roughly about 10-14 *working* days until we have the tuning work done, and are ready to actually ship the unit. From there it's just a matter of where we're shipping to and how quickly the customer wants it shipped - Ground, 3-days, 2-Day, Overnight, etc.
Glad to hear your service manager has a common sense attitude toward this, and when you get your new custom tune from us, you will see in our documentation that we advise the exact same thing when you go in for service, whether the vehicle is under warranty or not - go back to the stock tune. This is simply so that a service tech doesn't have any additional things to potentially deal with if they have a real nagging intermittent type of problem and have to really go digging out the break-out box, or if they need to update the PCM, etc., so it's just good common sense to do on any vehicle.
Please feel free to give us a call to go over any of this in more detail, and to place your order too - since you are a registered member of F-150 Online, you get a special additional discount on all of our Troyer Performance turning products!
Good luck & talk to you soon!
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 486
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From: San Diego
I hate to piggyback onto someone elses question, but I had a similar query regarding the 4.6. I want to get the benefits of a "shift kit" and have the rev limiter and governor disabled, etc. I don't necessarily want to increase my octane needs--atleast at the moment--for everyday use. What kind of limits am I looking at being it's only the 4.6? How significant would these changes be affected by regearing?
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 89
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From: Madison, WI
I don't think any tuning that Mr Troyer does will include "removing the rev limiter". That would seem to me to be removing the safety for your engine. My heavily modified 4.6 has its rev limiter firmly in place -- just in case I miss a shift..........
enb
enb
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Joined: May 2004
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From: Westchester, NY
Good Info!
Great answer to the question of tuner reliability, Mike. I've been contemplating a tuner for a little while now, and your answer has eased the burden of the many "what ifs" that crop up when looking at this type of modification. The info that has been put forth on this portion of the forum has been extremely helpful. And I have to say from a potential customers point of view, it's great to know that the company owner takes such fine interest in his customers!
Another issue I was wondering about is a cold air intake system. I purchsed a K&N FIPK (Gen 2 I believe) about 6 months ago and it' still sitting in the box, never even opened. (Like everyone else, time is a scarce commodity!) How would the tuner work with the K&N? Or is it a better option to go with an AF1?
I own a 2001 F150 SuperCrew, 5.4, and in the upcoming 3-4 weeks I'll be looking at purchasing a tuner for it. I will definitely be contacting you for purchase. You provide a great service to the many who use this forum, as is evidenced from the tremendous amount of praise that you receive here. Keep up the good work!
Another issue I was wondering about is a cold air intake system. I purchsed a K&N FIPK (Gen 2 I believe) about 6 months ago and it' still sitting in the box, never even opened. (Like everyone else, time is a scarce commodity!) How would the tuner work with the K&N? Or is it a better option to go with an AF1?
I own a 2001 F150 SuperCrew, 5.4, and in the upcoming 3-4 weeks I'll be looking at purchasing a tuner for it. I will definitely be contacting you for purchase. You provide a great service to the many who use this forum, as is evidenced from the tremendous amount of praise that you receive here. Keep up the good work!
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Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
Hi c0ckac0la,
Well, when you order the XCalibrator 2 from us you get *3* different custom tunes, not just one - so you can use any level of octane you want - 87 for when you don't want maximum power but still want all the other improvements, a towing program if need be, and then also a premium gas maximum performance tune - that's just one of the more popular combinations of 3 different programs.
No, we do NOT ever more the rev limiter - what we remove of the Top Speed limiter, and they are tow *completely* different things - so don't worry, your powertrain still has full protection.
I don't know what year your vehicle is, but if it's a 2004 or newer new body style, a shift kit really isn't' required, as we can make them shift as hard as you want right inside the program, generally speaking.
We *do* offer a separator plate for those with the heavier versions so of these new body style trucks who want tire-chirping WOT upshifts too - so any way you look at it, we can take care of all of those needs, just give us a call at our number listed below.
Well, when you order the XCalibrator 2 from us you get *3* different custom tunes, not just one - so you can use any level of octane you want - 87 for when you don't want maximum power but still want all the other improvements, a towing program if need be, and then also a premium gas maximum performance tune - that's just one of the more popular combinations of 3 different programs.
No, we do NOT ever more the rev limiter - what we remove of the Top Speed limiter, and they are tow *completely* different things - so don't worry, your powertrain still has full protection.
I don't know what year your vehicle is, but if it's a 2004 or newer new body style, a shift kit really isn't' required, as we can make them shift as hard as you want right inside the program, generally speaking.
We *do* offer a separator plate for those with the heavier versions so of these new body style trucks who want tire-chirping WOT upshifts too - so any way you look at it, we can take care of all of those needs, just give us a call at our number listed below.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
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From: Virginia
Hi Bigs125,
Good, glad to hear I could help.
On the subject of the intake kit, While the Air Force One would do a better job than the K&N FIPK unit, no, I would NOT get rid of a perfectly good brand new FIPK sitting in a box for that truck - on the contrary, I would go ahead and install it right now and start enjoying it - you don't need any custom tuning for it to be safe on the 1997-2003 F-150's!
Good, glad to hear I could help.
On the subject of the intake kit, While the Air Force One would do a better job than the K&N FIPK unit, no, I would NOT get rid of a perfectly good brand new FIPK sitting in a box for that truck - on the contrary, I would go ahead and install it right now and start enjoying it - you don't need any custom tuning for it to be safe on the 1997-2003 F-150's!
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 203
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From: Westchester, NY
Thanks Mike. I hopefully have this weekend off from work and, of course, have a list of projects to tackle. The K&N is on this list and I'll hopefully get to it so I can see some performance gains on my truck. In the upcoming month or so I will be in touch with you regarding a tuner. Unless of course the anticipation gets to me and I call you sooner!
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 486
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From: San Diego
Hi Mike,
Thanks so much for personally answering my question. I greatly appreciate your input and look forward to doing business with you further.
I did not plan on getting the Xcalibrator before--mainly because I was unsure of the benefits for my application. I have an '05 4.6 SCrew. No performance mods yet---but I plan to get the Magnaflow and the AF1 for it. Now that I am considering the Xcalibrator more, I'm wondering what to get first. Any suggestions as to where I'll see the biggest gain? As the tuner does have to be changed for each new application, would I do this last? All in all, the end goal is to build more power for a future lift on the truck. I plan to do the "engine" work first to keep the strain off of it when lifted. When I lift, I plan to change the gear ratio as well---so there are a lot of things in the future---Just need some advice where to start. I've heard a lot of guys suggest the tuner first then so on, that brings me back to my earlier point about re-tuning, etc. What do you think?
Again, thanks in advance for the reply---I know that replying to e-mails all day is very time consuming . So thanks
Thanks so much for personally answering my question. I greatly appreciate your input and look forward to doing business with you further.
I did not plan on getting the Xcalibrator before--mainly because I was unsure of the benefits for my application. I have an '05 4.6 SCrew. No performance mods yet---but I plan to get the Magnaflow and the AF1 for it. Now that I am considering the Xcalibrator more, I'm wondering what to get first. Any suggestions as to where I'll see the biggest gain? As the tuner does have to be changed for each new application, would I do this last? All in all, the end goal is to build more power for a future lift on the truck. I plan to do the "engine" work first to keep the strain off of it when lifted. When I lift, I plan to change the gear ratio as well---so there are a lot of things in the future---Just need some advice where to start. I've heard a lot of guys suggest the tuner first then so on, that brings me back to my earlier point about re-tuning, etc. What do you think?
Again, thanks in advance for the reply---I know that replying to e-mails all day is very time consuming . So thanks
Last edited by c0ckac0la; Jul 26, 2005 at 01:22 AM.
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Joined: Jun 2005
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From: sacramento, ca
This is a really good thread. I checked out the troyer website. man is it full of info. it almost should be required reading, because it answers so many issues about the whole intake/exhaust/tuner combo. i will definatly consider the stage 2 performance package for my 05 5.4 lariet. makes me a little giddy just reading all the details. 
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
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From: Virginia
Yeah, the basic order for best bang for the buck is:
Tuning
Intake kit
Cat-back exhaust
That does not mean you HAVE to do those mods in that order, that is simply the best order of bang for the buck - most performance improvement per dollars spent.
Tuning
Intake kit
Cat-back exhaust
That does not mean you HAVE to do those mods in that order, that is simply the best order of bang for the buck - most performance improvement per dollars spent.
