Tuners and Pinging?
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From: Fort Worth, TX
Tuners and Pinging?
I have done some searching and found some threads that skate around the idea of having a chip burned to reduce or eliminate pinging, but no one ever really seems to confirm or deny that it can be done.
I have a mild pinging problem with my 99 5.4 with 60K miles. I have put in new plugs, cleaned the TB, EGR, MAF, and IAC (none of which were even very dirty) and I think that maybe the programming or timing is slightly off from the factory.
So the question is, can someone burn a custom tune for me that will reduce or eliminate the pinging, but not reduce performance, and maybe even help it in the process? And does anyone offer a money-back guarantee, or is that asking too much? The pinging I am experiencing isn't bad, but will probably motivate me to sell the truck if can't get it resolved, and I hate to spend sveral hundred bucks on a tuner just to turn around and sell the truck.
Guys, is there still hope for me?
I have a mild pinging problem with my 99 5.4 with 60K miles. I have put in new plugs, cleaned the TB, EGR, MAF, and IAC (none of which were even very dirty) and I think that maybe the programming or timing is slightly off from the factory.
So the question is, can someone burn a custom tune for me that will reduce or eliminate the pinging, but not reduce performance, and maybe even help it in the process? And does anyone offer a money-back guarantee, or is that asking too much? The pinging I am experiencing isn't bad, but will probably motivate me to sell the truck if can't get it resolved, and I hate to spend sveral hundred bucks on a tuner just to turn around and sell the truck.
Guys, is there still hope for me?
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From: Sunny FL
Last edited by jpdadeo; Jul 12, 2005 at 07:54 AM.
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Brian,
What gas do you use and what octane. If it's pinging with Sunoco Ultra then you got a problem! If you are using 87 octane then go up a grade and see if the ping goes away. Even if you have to use 91-93 it's cheaper than a tuner in the meantime.
What gas do you use and what octane. If it's pinging with Sunoco Ultra then you got a problem! If you are using 87 octane then go up a grade and see if the ping goes away. Even if you have to use 91-93 it's cheaper than a tuner in the meantime.
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From: Fort Worth, TX
I have experimented with sveral different brands and octanes of gas. Initially, I thought that preimium made the pinging less obvious, but now I'm not so sure.
A few questions about the Xcal2. Is it a chip, or power programmer? Who makes it? What are it's advantages over other manufacturers? Disadvantages? Can it be custom programmed for my truck, or is it generic? If its custom, is it realistic that it could eliminate or reduce my slight pinging? How is that accomplished? Retarding timing just a hair?
Lots of questions, I know, but I'd like to find out all I can about my options.
Thanks
Brian
A few questions about the Xcal2. Is it a chip, or power programmer? Who makes it? What are it's advantages over other manufacturers? Disadvantages? Can it be custom programmed for my truck, or is it generic? If its custom, is it realistic that it could eliminate or reduce my slight pinging? How is that accomplished? Retarding timing just a hair?
Lots of questions, I know, but I'd like to find out all I can about my options.
Thanks
Brian
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From: Sunny FL
If it pings all the time that’s not normal, even if it’s only a mild ping. Maybe you should have it checked out by a Ford technician. I see you got 56K on her, has it pinged from day one? I hope you figure something out because that’s a beautiful looking rig you got their Brian, shiny, and it would be a shame to get rid of her prematurely.
Last edited by jpdadeo; Jul 12, 2005 at 08:22 AM.
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From: Orlando Florida
A few questions about the Xcal2.
Is it a chip, or power programmer?
Programmer.
Who makes it?
SCT (Superchips Custom Tuning www.sctflash.com )
What are it's advantages over other manufacturers?
The ability to be fully custom tuned. USB support, Analog inputs, Passthrough fast datalogging, Holds up to 3 custom tunes as well as many more.
Disadvantages?
does not have a backlit screen
Can it be custom programmed for my truck, or is it generic?
the vendor you purchase it from can go from a starter file, to a fully custom tune for your particuliar application.
If its custom, is it realistic that it could eliminate or reduce my slight pinging? How is that accomplished? Retarding timing just a hair?
You could retard timing to compensate for detonation as just one method, however, on a factory tune, that is often setup for 85 or so octane, you should try to fix all mechanical issues before trying to fix it with a programmer.
Ryan
Is it a chip, or power programmer?
Programmer.
Who makes it?
SCT (Superchips Custom Tuning www.sctflash.com )
What are it's advantages over other manufacturers?
The ability to be fully custom tuned. USB support, Analog inputs, Passthrough fast datalogging, Holds up to 3 custom tunes as well as many more.
Disadvantages?
does not have a backlit screen
Can it be custom programmed for my truck, or is it generic?
the vendor you purchase it from can go from a starter file, to a fully custom tune for your particuliar application.
If its custom, is it realistic that it could eliminate or reduce my slight pinging? How is that accomplished? Retarding timing just a hair?
You could retard timing to compensate for detonation as just one method, however, on a factory tune, that is often setup for 85 or so octane, you should try to fix all mechanical issues before trying to fix it with a programmer.
Ryan
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From: Easton, Pa.
These engines have a knock sensor. It may be out of tolerence just enough to cause your problem or even have a dirty/open cable or plug..
The knock sensor is there to protect the engine from excessive timing advance under load vs the fuel octane.
It also allows the engine to run as much advance as possible for the most torque and fuel mileage.
Trying to alter program for timing retard is not the best way to accomplish it because you pay a penility for this.
On custom modified engines , it often becomes nessesary to alter ignition timing to fit the way the engine needs timing applied but with a stock engine, you have no spare power to loose.
It has been known that some combinations need the EGR 'ignition' timing altered just a small amount to fix a ping condition but that is in the relm of custom tuning. This is about the only time it should be done on a stock engine. This change only applies at the time EGR operation happens and not the whole ignition range.
You do what you want but after spending the $300 or so and get even worse operating results--where are you ahead.
Some things for you to try.
Remove the timing plug and take it out for a spin.
You may see the ping is gone but how's the power?
With the plug out it retards the timing 3*. I don't know if the advance will still work but it will demenstrate what loss of timing does and you may not like it.
Next, to test the knock sensor, disconnect it and test run again but be carefull of the throttle application. If it really rattles, the sensor was working.
You may see a CEL lamp from these actions but should go out when all is restored and may leave codes stored and can be cleared later, showing the PCM is detecting these things as faults the way it is supposed to.
Recently I told you in another reply, all the areas to check out for the problem.
We can't help you any further but tell you all the info to detect/ fix the problem and retarding timing is not one of them.
Is it possible that the cat covers are loose and their rattle sounds like pinging?
Good luck.
The knock sensor is there to protect the engine from excessive timing advance under load vs the fuel octane.
It also allows the engine to run as much advance as possible for the most torque and fuel mileage.
Trying to alter program for timing retard is not the best way to accomplish it because you pay a penility for this.
On custom modified engines , it often becomes nessesary to alter ignition timing to fit the way the engine needs timing applied but with a stock engine, you have no spare power to loose.
It has been known that some combinations need the EGR 'ignition' timing altered just a small amount to fix a ping condition but that is in the relm of custom tuning. This is about the only time it should be done on a stock engine. This change only applies at the time EGR operation happens and not the whole ignition range.
You do what you want but after spending the $300 or so and get even worse operating results--where are you ahead.
Some things for you to try.
Remove the timing plug and take it out for a spin.
You may see the ping is gone but how's the power?
With the plug out it retards the timing 3*. I don't know if the advance will still work but it will demenstrate what loss of timing does and you may not like it.
Next, to test the knock sensor, disconnect it and test run again but be carefull of the throttle application. If it really rattles, the sensor was working.
You may see a CEL lamp from these actions but should go out when all is restored and may leave codes stored and can be cleared later, showing the PCM is detecting these things as faults the way it is supposed to.
Recently I told you in another reply, all the areas to check out for the problem.
We can't help you any further but tell you all the info to detect/ fix the problem and retarding timing is not one of them.
Is it possible that the cat covers are loose and their rattle sounds like pinging?
Good luck.
Last edited by Bluegrass; Jul 12, 2005 at 10:49 AM.
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From: Virginia
Hi Brian,
Some of the pre-2000 5.4's have a bit of pinging when run on the factory program with 87 octane, or even some 89 octane fuels - especially if you are using off-brand or "no-name" fuels. Use better name brand fuels, like Citgo, Texaco, Shell, and out on the west coast, Union 76 is good.
If that does not take care of it and it's not a mechanical problem, then we can usually take care of that in the tuning. However, we are not going to do custom tuning with a money-back guarantee that it's going to stop whatever noise you're hearing - it's too much work to do for nothing. I don't think that would be reasonable to ask a tuner to do hours of work for nothing if whatever sound you are hearing is still present afterwards. I hope I've explained that in a manner that doesn't sound "flip" or anything - I hope you get what I mean, I'm not the best writer.
Now when your vehicle is detonating & we cure that, you generally do NOT lose power or performance. What happens is usually just the opposite, you *gain* performance, because once the engine is no longer detonating, the PCM is no longer retarding timing (which it usually does in rather large amounts and very rapidly to it's limits, so you lose significant power). The first couple of years of the newer Z06 Corvette is an excellent example - it has too much timing in the mid-range, and 20+ HP is gained at the rear wheels just from reducing timing so it no longer activates the knock sensor to reduce power.
The bottom line is, if this is simply the typical pre-2000 F-150 5.4 slight pinging under load, maybe aggravated by using cheaper gas, then yes, that can easily be taken care of via tuning. There are some of them, especially in the pre-2001 4.6 F-150's, where there are areas that require less timing than stock even when running on *premium* gas, for example!
The first thing to do is to determine if this really is detonation - try running a couple of tanks of high quality premium gasoline - meaning at least 91 octane (it will be 93 octane unless you are out West), and see if that makes a difference in the sound you hear - it's frequency and severity, etc. If this is classic F-150 pinging that we see in the pre-2000 5.4 F-150's from time to time, this *will* make a difference. Try taking it up some hills, put it under a load, both with your current fuel, and then with a couple of tanks of good premium gas - that will tell you if it's making a difference or not, to help you identify whether it's detonation or not.
Another easy way to do this is to connect a good scan tool and monitor the knock sensor's output voltage - if it's pinging, that voltage will go up & up as you go thru the rpm range at full-throttle, or any time detonation is detected at any throttle position.
Last - the hardware that is used to deliver the tuning makes no difference at all, that is a myth - what matters is the actual person doing the *tuning* - and what you need is of course *custom* tuning, so you cannot use any "off-the-shelf" tuning device, you need a unit that can be loaded with custom tuning. We've specialized in tuning these F-150's longer than anyone else, and can easily correct the mild pinging that is heard in some of the pre-2000 5.4's, and the pre-2001 4.6 F-150's via tuning - so *if* that is what your vehicle's problem is, then yes, we can take care of that.
By far the best tuning device on the market is the XCalibrator 2 - hands down, it's no contest. No other unit has it's features & capabilities, that is what we use to load our Troyer Performance custom tuning into - the manufacturer, SCT, is the world's leader in tuning supplies for factory PCM equipped vehicles, and we've used virtually every product that has been on the market over the past almost 20 years. You can use the XCalibrator 2 to datalog, too! It has a high-speed datalogger built right into it, something that NO other unit has in that caliber! You can use the datalogging features to see if you actually are getting a detonation issue, as with our custom tuning package we also provide you with complete datalogging instructions that you can use along with the XCalibrator 2 to help determine if that engine is actually detonating - we analyze all that data for you, that is part of our custom tuning package.
Don't misunderstand - I'm not trying to play salesman here or promising you that we can wave a magic wand and cure whatever noise you are hearing - but if it's the "classic" early F-150 detonation, we've seen that many times and can cure that in an otherwise healthy vehicle - and get you better performance at the same time.
If you'd like to go over any of this in more detail, give us a call at our number listed below & we can do that - and best of luck whatever you decide!
Some of the pre-2000 5.4's have a bit of pinging when run on the factory program with 87 octane, or even some 89 octane fuels - especially if you are using off-brand or "no-name" fuels. Use better name brand fuels, like Citgo, Texaco, Shell, and out on the west coast, Union 76 is good.
If that does not take care of it and it's not a mechanical problem, then we can usually take care of that in the tuning. However, we are not going to do custom tuning with a money-back guarantee that it's going to stop whatever noise you're hearing - it's too much work to do for nothing. I don't think that would be reasonable to ask a tuner to do hours of work for nothing if whatever sound you are hearing is still present afterwards. I hope I've explained that in a manner that doesn't sound "flip" or anything - I hope you get what I mean, I'm not the best writer.
Now when your vehicle is detonating & we cure that, you generally do NOT lose power or performance. What happens is usually just the opposite, you *gain* performance, because once the engine is no longer detonating, the PCM is no longer retarding timing (which it usually does in rather large amounts and very rapidly to it's limits, so you lose significant power). The first couple of years of the newer Z06 Corvette is an excellent example - it has too much timing in the mid-range, and 20+ HP is gained at the rear wheels just from reducing timing so it no longer activates the knock sensor to reduce power.
The bottom line is, if this is simply the typical pre-2000 F-150 5.4 slight pinging under load, maybe aggravated by using cheaper gas, then yes, that can easily be taken care of via tuning. There are some of them, especially in the pre-2001 4.6 F-150's, where there are areas that require less timing than stock even when running on *premium* gas, for example!
The first thing to do is to determine if this really is detonation - try running a couple of tanks of high quality premium gasoline - meaning at least 91 octane (it will be 93 octane unless you are out West), and see if that makes a difference in the sound you hear - it's frequency and severity, etc. If this is classic F-150 pinging that we see in the pre-2000 5.4 F-150's from time to time, this *will* make a difference. Try taking it up some hills, put it under a load, both with your current fuel, and then with a couple of tanks of good premium gas - that will tell you if it's making a difference or not, to help you identify whether it's detonation or not.
Another easy way to do this is to connect a good scan tool and monitor the knock sensor's output voltage - if it's pinging, that voltage will go up & up as you go thru the rpm range at full-throttle, or any time detonation is detected at any throttle position.
Last - the hardware that is used to deliver the tuning makes no difference at all, that is a myth - what matters is the actual person doing the *tuning* - and what you need is of course *custom* tuning, so you cannot use any "off-the-shelf" tuning device, you need a unit that can be loaded with custom tuning. We've specialized in tuning these F-150's longer than anyone else, and can easily correct the mild pinging that is heard in some of the pre-2000 5.4's, and the pre-2001 4.6 F-150's via tuning - so *if* that is what your vehicle's problem is, then yes, we can take care of that.
By far the best tuning device on the market is the XCalibrator 2 - hands down, it's no contest. No other unit has it's features & capabilities, that is what we use to load our Troyer Performance custom tuning into - the manufacturer, SCT, is the world's leader in tuning supplies for factory PCM equipped vehicles, and we've used virtually every product that has been on the market over the past almost 20 years. You can use the XCalibrator 2 to datalog, too! It has a high-speed datalogger built right into it, something that NO other unit has in that caliber! You can use the datalogging features to see if you actually are getting a detonation issue, as with our custom tuning package we also provide you with complete datalogging instructions that you can use along with the XCalibrator 2 to help determine if that engine is actually detonating - we analyze all that data for you, that is part of our custom tuning package.
Don't misunderstand - I'm not trying to play salesman here or promising you that we can wave a magic wand and cure whatever noise you are hearing - but if it's the "classic" early F-150 detonation, we've seen that many times and can cure that in an otherwise healthy vehicle - and get you better performance at the same time.
If you'd like to go over any of this in more detail, give us a call at our number listed below & we can do that - and best of luck whatever you decide!
Last edited by Superchips_Distributor; Jul 13, 2005 at 12:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
and what you need is of course *custom* tuning, so you cannot use any "off-the-shelf" tuning device
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From: Virginia
Hi Brian,
You're very welcome, of course - I actually went back and edited my response a bit, as I'm not the best writer & was concerned that parts of it may not have come off the way I intended - it seems that you get the basic point I was trying to get across just fine, but I edited it a bit anyway for that and a couple of typo's, etc.
By the way - one other basic thing to make sure of is the fuel system - make sure that you have a fresh Motorcraft fuel filter installed, and that the injectors are clean and that the fuel pressure is correct. A lean condition under load can also contribute to pinging like that.
Good luck!
You're very welcome, of course - I actually went back and edited my response a bit, as I'm not the best writer & was concerned that parts of it may not have come off the way I intended - it seems that you get the basic point I was trying to get across just fine, but I edited it a bit anyway for that and a couple of typo's, etc.
By the way - one other basic thing to make sure of is the fuel system - make sure that you have a fresh Motorcraft fuel filter installed, and that the injectors are clean and that the fuel pressure is correct. A lean condition under load can also contribute to pinging like that.
Good luck!
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From: Fort Worth, TX
Mike,
I'm not the best writer either, so I'll rephrase one more question I had. When I asked about a 'money back guarantee' I guess what I meant is, if the first program doesn't work right for some reason or another, is there any kind of tech support, or am I just out of luck? I realize that it would be unreasonable to ask someone to just give a refund, but maybe helpful troubleshooting, or if it got down to it, reburning the program would be within reason? And the last question. How you go about burning a custom tune without having the truck? What differentiates a custom tune from an off-the shelf model, and how is it achieved. I do have some more questions, but I should probably give you a call to discuss the details. Thanks for your time
Brian
I'm not the best writer either, so I'll rephrase one more question I had. When I asked about a 'money back guarantee' I guess what I meant is, if the first program doesn't work right for some reason or another, is there any kind of tech support, or am I just out of luck? I realize that it would be unreasonable to ask someone to just give a refund, but maybe helpful troubleshooting, or if it got down to it, reburning the program would be within reason? And the last question. How you go about burning a custom tune without having the truck? What differentiates a custom tune from an off-the shelf model, and how is it achieved. I do have some more questions, but I should probably give you a call to discuss the details. Thanks for your time
Brian
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From: Virginia
Hi Brian,
I think I see where you're going, and if I understand you properly, yes, as part of our custom tuning, if there are any adjustments that need to be made to the tuning we original send out, as long as no other mechanical changes are made to the vehicle that is included. We do set a timeframe, the customer has to provide us with the datalogging info within 60 days, but as long as that is done and no other subsequent mods are made to the vehicle after we tune it that would change the tuning, then yes, any needed adjustments are free!
In fact, we include a complete thorough set of datalogging instructions that tell the vehicle owner how to obtain the info that is necessary to do a professional evaluation of the results of the tuning (we don't' make changes based on seat of the pants or guessing, only based on actual data) , and any adjustments that are required to properly "tweak" it in (like dialing in the A/F ratios, etc) are included.
Just give us a call whenever you get a chance & we can go over that with you in proper detail.
I think I see where you're going, and if I understand you properly, yes, as part of our custom tuning, if there are any adjustments that need to be made to the tuning we original send out, as long as no other mechanical changes are made to the vehicle that is included. We do set a timeframe, the customer has to provide us with the datalogging info within 60 days, but as long as that is done and no other subsequent mods are made to the vehicle after we tune it that would change the tuning, then yes, any needed adjustments are free!
In fact, we include a complete thorough set of datalogging instructions that tell the vehicle owner how to obtain the info that is necessary to do a professional evaluation of the results of the tuning (we don't' make changes based on seat of the pants or guessing, only based on actual data) , and any adjustments that are required to properly "tweak" it in (like dialing in the A/F ratios, etc) are included.
Just give us a call whenever you get a chance & we can go over that with you in proper detail.
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From: Fort Worth, TX
I've got some more questions, but at this point its probably better to actually give you a call. Can I reach you at the number below, or will that be a receptionist or something? I guess just ask for Mike Troyer when I call?