Stage 1
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
From: Wichita, KS
Stage 1
I took the plunge today and ordered the stage 1 kit with the xcalibrator for my super crew from Troyer. I allready have the efans and the underdrive pulleys sitting in the garage so this should wake up the throttle lagged 5.4 . I knew from my previous dealings with Troyer and with all of the ranting and raving on here about them that I would only trust them with my truck. Thanks to Mike and Anita for all the info and the great customer service.
Shawn
Shawn
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: Kennesaw, GA
You will love it...
I was very suprised at the preformance gains with the stage 1 kit and the xcalibrater ( call it stage 1.5 )
The pulleys should add a little extra kick....
Everything about the kit workes as expected with one minor exceptions.
The Magnaflow exhaust was quite to start with, but got much louder over time and has developed a drone between 1600 - 1900 rpm with the droning being more pronounced at the 1800rpm mark. I checked the clamps and it is not leaking. I am going to modify the stock vibration dampener to fit the 3" pipe. I hope this will help.
I also thin the 2-3 shift point is a little too high. The engine stops pulling hard at about 5000rpm and it takes a while to clime to the shift point wich seems to be about 5200-5300rpm. However, I do not have enough miles on the truck to know that the adaptive control has fully learned the right config for the shift points, so I want to give it more time.
Overall the improvements are quite impressive....Congrats on the kit...
The pulleys should add a little extra kick....
Everything about the kit workes as expected with one minor exceptions.
The Magnaflow exhaust was quite to start with, but got much louder over time and has developed a drone between 1600 - 1900 rpm with the droning being more pronounced at the 1800rpm mark. I checked the clamps and it is not leaking. I am going to modify the stock vibration dampener to fit the 3" pipe. I hope this will help.
I also thin the 2-3 shift point is a little too high. The engine stops pulling hard at about 5000rpm and it takes a while to clime to the shift point wich seems to be about 5200-5300rpm. However, I do not have enough miles on the truck to know that the adaptive control has fully learned the right config for the shift points, so I want to give it more time.
Overall the improvements are quite impressive....Congrats on the kit...
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,390
Likes: 10
A common complaint...
Hi.
I concur with sranger; you will not regret your combination of mods. The tuning really shines when you reduce parasitic losses.
And I understand that the 2004+ 3V trucks in particular really respond well to these enhancements.
*Now for my Caveats* - this should probably go into the 'Exhaust' forum ;-)). My apologies for yet another hijack, but you started it, sranger ! AND, I am sooo not sorry for the long-winded post! Here goes...
Quoted from above:
---------------------------------------------
"The Magnaflow exhaust was quite to start with, but got much louder over time and has developed a drone between 1600 - 1900 rpm with the droning being more pronounced at the 1800rpm mark. I checked the clamps and it is not leaking. I am going to modify the stock vibration dampener to fit the 3" pipe. I hope this will help."
---------------------------------------------
This 'drone' or resonance in this rpm range appears to be a common complaint across most years of late-model F-150's and is mentioned on several boards. This applies to otherwise 'sound' ( pun intended), exhaust systems with no other issues, like leaks, mechanical interference ( pipe touching frame !), or effed up hangers.
There has never been a definitive answer/root cause that I've found. A lot of hyperbole concerning natural resonant frequencies for this drivetrain ( even across model years ???), but no hard factual analysis.
Until a Ford chassis / drivetrain / exhaust engineer chimes in with some insight, we will continue to speculate on the true nature of this phenomenon. Of course, that individual would have to be candid that the factory blew it w.r.t NVH measures on this platform. The 2004+ seems to fare better in this respect.
I have a Maggie 3" catback, and it drones in this rpm range, as did the Gibson, and the stocker before it ( but only after 3 + years on the original).
My solution? Completely Dynamat the cab of the truck; floor/toe pan, back, doors and roof. Added about 80 lbs and there goes my E.T's ;-)). But Wow, what a difference in sound. The 'drone' is all gone, and so is the road noise. And the tunes sound much better. Remember, just a -3db change in noise level ( which is the Minimum you can expect with Dynamat - most installs provide even better results), translates to Half the perceived sound, and a corresponding equivalent of doubling your amplifier power, for those so inclined to think in those terms.
Believe me - I experimented with just about every alternative exhaust system mounting approach - including additional buckshot-filled dampers, relocated /additional hangers, and even a homemade HelmHoltz resonator ( variable length tube, perpendicular to the exhaust pipe - think of the air traps/standpipes on your house plumbing ), to try and kill this noise. Helped a little, but did not cure the patient. And, your average muffler monkey has no clue about exhaust system dynamics.
My personal speculation, based upon empirical evidence derived from all my experiments, suggests that the sympathetic vibrations induced in the various panels of the cab by the close proximity of the exhaust/muffler underneath and the sonic energy produced while in operation, is a big factor in causing the 'droning' you hear.
As the truck ages, and the exhaust system and the cab structure in general loosens up, (factory sound deadening, if any, adhesives, etc begin to dry out and harden), those vibrations increase. Or, if the cab structure isn't as tight when new as it was designed to be, you may experience this sooner.
The louder the muffler/system to begin with, and it's design ( round versus oval can, length/width ratio, etc), the more pronounced this effect becomes.
Adding mass and damping the panels ( which is what Dynamat does) seems to be one way to reduce /eliminate the problem.
Worked for me, anyway. This doesn't happen to everyone, but for those who have these symptoms, matting could be your answer.
Now, the only thing left is the sweet sound of the Maggie exhaust
Cheers!
It's Friday, hence Long Island Iced Tea nite ( yeah, a Canadian thing ).
I concur with sranger; you will not regret your combination of mods. The tuning really shines when you reduce parasitic losses.
And I understand that the 2004+ 3V trucks in particular really respond well to these enhancements.
*Now for my Caveats* - this should probably go into the 'Exhaust' forum ;-)). My apologies for yet another hijack, but you started it, sranger ! AND, I am sooo not sorry for the long-winded post! Here goes...
Quoted from above:
---------------------------------------------
"The Magnaflow exhaust was quite to start with, but got much louder over time and has developed a drone between 1600 - 1900 rpm with the droning being more pronounced at the 1800rpm mark. I checked the clamps and it is not leaking. I am going to modify the stock vibration dampener to fit the 3" pipe. I hope this will help."
---------------------------------------------
This 'drone' or resonance in this rpm range appears to be a common complaint across most years of late-model F-150's and is mentioned on several boards. This applies to otherwise 'sound' ( pun intended), exhaust systems with no other issues, like leaks, mechanical interference ( pipe touching frame !), or effed up hangers.
There has never been a definitive answer/root cause that I've found. A lot of hyperbole concerning natural resonant frequencies for this drivetrain ( even across model years ???), but no hard factual analysis.
Until a Ford chassis / drivetrain / exhaust engineer chimes in with some insight, we will continue to speculate on the true nature of this phenomenon. Of course, that individual would have to be candid that the factory blew it w.r.t NVH measures on this platform. The 2004+ seems to fare better in this respect.
I have a Maggie 3" catback, and it drones in this rpm range, as did the Gibson, and the stocker before it ( but only after 3 + years on the original).
My solution? Completely Dynamat the cab of the truck; floor/toe pan, back, doors and roof. Added about 80 lbs and there goes my E.T's ;-)). But Wow, what a difference in sound. The 'drone' is all gone, and so is the road noise. And the tunes sound much better. Remember, just a -3db change in noise level ( which is the Minimum you can expect with Dynamat - most installs provide even better results), translates to Half the perceived sound, and a corresponding equivalent of doubling your amplifier power, for those so inclined to think in those terms.
Believe me - I experimented with just about every alternative exhaust system mounting approach - including additional buckshot-filled dampers, relocated /additional hangers, and even a homemade HelmHoltz resonator ( variable length tube, perpendicular to the exhaust pipe - think of the air traps/standpipes on your house plumbing ), to try and kill this noise. Helped a little, but did not cure the patient. And, your average muffler monkey has no clue about exhaust system dynamics.
My personal speculation, based upon empirical evidence derived from all my experiments, suggests that the sympathetic vibrations induced in the various panels of the cab by the close proximity of the exhaust/muffler underneath and the sonic energy produced while in operation, is a big factor in causing the 'droning' you hear.
As the truck ages, and the exhaust system and the cab structure in general loosens up, (factory sound deadening, if any, adhesives, etc begin to dry out and harden), those vibrations increase. Or, if the cab structure isn't as tight when new as it was designed to be, you may experience this sooner.
The louder the muffler/system to begin with, and it's design ( round versus oval can, length/width ratio, etc), the more pronounced this effect becomes.
Adding mass and damping the panels ( which is what Dynamat does) seems to be one way to reduce /eliminate the problem.
Worked for me, anyway. This doesn't happen to everyone, but for those who have these symptoms, matting could be your answer.
Now, the only thing left is the sweet sound of the Maggie exhaust
Cheers!
It's Friday, hence Long Island Iced Tea nite ( yeah, a Canadian thing ).
Last edited by MGDfan; Apr 15, 2005 at 08:51 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,390
Likes: 10
Great!
That's great!
Please be sure to post your install experiences ( everybody has 'em ;-)) ) and your impressions of the effect of all your mods.
Take your time, be safe and have fun, man.
For sranger: did you try to modify your shift schedule for the 2-3 upshift using ExtremeTune, or will you be asking TP to mod it for you? It shouldn't be doing that, nor should you need to wait that long for the shifting to settle down. Mine took no longer than a few days to shift consistently and as expected.
As for your exhaust - any luck with your droning issue - I'd love to hear if you fixed it!
Please keep us informed.
Cheers!
Please be sure to post your install experiences ( everybody has 'em ;-)) ) and your impressions of the effect of all your mods.
Take your time, be safe and have fun, man.
For sranger: did you try to modify your shift schedule for the 2-3 upshift using ExtremeTune, or will you be asking TP to mod it for you? It shouldn't be doing that, nor should you need to wait that long for the shifting to settle down. Mine took no longer than a few days to shift consistently and as expected.
As for your exhaust - any luck with your droning issue - I'd love to hear if you fixed it!
Please keep us informed.
Cheers!
Last edited by MGDfan; Apr 18, 2005 at 07:58 AM.
Junior Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
MGDfan do you have any pics or technical specs for the helmholtz resonator that you built? I am getting ready to start building one for my 04 cobra to see if it cuts down on cabin resonance. In theory, this should work quite well if I can pin down the resonating frequency responsible for drone.
Got my equations, literature, and software all lined up and ready to go. Your real life experiences would help.
Got my equations, literature, and software all lined up and ready to go. Your real life experiences would help.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
NEVER set WOT shift points by the seat of the pants feel, by when you think the motor isn't pulling as hard any more - all that does is increase acceleration times, and is a typical mistake made when not doing proper testing to actually identify the results - and it's a very common thing for most of us to want to do, of course, it's human nature to want to upshift the second you feel the motor not pulling quite as hard - I know. 
That's why you have to actually *test* out the results to actually know what's giving the best results - along with knowing what you can and cannot do to the powertrain without compromising durability, of course.
You have to take into account the actual ratio drop in the transmission, the torque curve and where you land in that curve in the next gear, etc.
This is an easy way to tell if someone has experience in setting vehicles up for best performance, as those who don't virtually always short-shift the motor - grabbing the next gear when they think it's not pulling quite as hard by the seat of the pants feel - that causes slower acceleration times.
Basically, unless you have a specific racing transmission with very little drop between the 1-2 & 2-3 ratios (and none of these vehicles qualifies, not even the Cobra's T56 6-speed does), you have to wind the engine several hundred rpm PAST the power peak to get the best acceleration. It's a matter of experience on each platform, basically - the best acceleration in any automatic mod-motor Ford using stock cams & heads dictates a 5600 rpm 1-2 to get the actual quickest acceleration, though in these trucks when using a stock TQ, you don't want to frequently go above about 5500, so we generally tend to go to 5400 rpm for the 1-2 so as not to ever risk ballooning the converter. Then for the 2-3, 5400 is also the best shift point, as in 3rd you hit 1:1 and no more torque multiplication from gear ratios.
In short - NEVER upshift based on seat of the pants feel or shift at the power peak, that will only increase acceleration times.
By the way - Sranger, this response **isn't** for you, as of course by now you & I have already had a chance to discuss this previously in a different thread in some detail (and it was a good discussion). This response is actually for *others* who may come along and read this thread later on.
That's why you have to actually *test* out the results to actually know what's giving the best results - along with knowing what you can and cannot do to the powertrain without compromising durability, of course.
You have to take into account the actual ratio drop in the transmission, the torque curve and where you land in that curve in the next gear, etc.
This is an easy way to tell if someone has experience in setting vehicles up for best performance, as those who don't virtually always short-shift the motor - grabbing the next gear when they think it's not pulling quite as hard by the seat of the pants feel - that causes slower acceleration times.
Basically, unless you have a specific racing transmission with very little drop between the 1-2 & 2-3 ratios (and none of these vehicles qualifies, not even the Cobra's T56 6-speed does), you have to wind the engine several hundred rpm PAST the power peak to get the best acceleration. It's a matter of experience on each platform, basically - the best acceleration in any automatic mod-motor Ford using stock cams & heads dictates a 5600 rpm 1-2 to get the actual quickest acceleration, though in these trucks when using a stock TQ, you don't want to frequently go above about 5500, so we generally tend to go to 5400 rpm for the 1-2 so as not to ever risk ballooning the converter. Then for the 2-3, 5400 is also the best shift point, as in 3rd you hit 1:1 and no more torque multiplication from gear ratios.
In short - NEVER upshift based on seat of the pants feel or shift at the power peak, that will only increase acceleration times.
By the way - Sranger, this response **isn't** for you, as of course by now you & I have already had a chance to discuss this previously in a different thread in some detail (and it was a good discussion). This response is actually for *others* who may come along and read this thread later on.