Hey guys, I have a question.....and maybe a few of you might think it's a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway, and maybe Mike can put his .02 cents in....
Since the Superchip that Troyers Performance sells increases the performance of the 4.6L & 5.4L engines so they run more efficiently, and also makes the transmission shift more efficiently which will increase longevity, can someone tell me why the OEM factory chip is not programmed to do this? Do they think we are just a bunch of old grannies going to the grocery store once a week, or what? This has been bugging me for quite some time and I can't come up with a logical answer. You know, like that proverbial itch you can't scratch.......
I would really like to hear some input on this......

 

Reloader, technically the vehicles don't come with chips that is comparable to the Superchip the Mike sells. The computer programs that is in the vehicles are designed to get the best economy and emissions out of them. By letting the tranny slip, it gives a more soft shift which Ford has done to get more women into the truck/SUV lines that Ford provides. Ford also uses low octane (87 or so) inorder to keep the cost of your gas bills down over the year(s). This provides Ford the best combination to get good gas mileage and emissions to pass all the strict policies (emissions, fuel economy, etc) that they have to meet with each of their vehicle line-ups. Generally the typical buyer doesn't do mods, they don't care about extra HP & TQ unless they are hauling stuff or pulling a trailer. Alot of people couldn't give rats a$$ about anything that quite a few of the guys on here does with their trucks. They just drive them from point A to point B and don't care about anything else other than good gas mileage, low fuel costs and low maintenance costs. That is just most of the people out there and that is who Ford caters to. There is not enough HP & TQ people out there to change what they are currently doing with their vehicles. That is why we love to have guys like Mike doing what he does best and that is giving us more HP & TQ as long as we can pay for it. If you end up maxing out the motor that you have then there is always building bigger motor.

I am sure that Mike will be in later on to add or subtract from what I have mentioned above.

Have Fun & Keep on Truckin'
Dean

 

To summarize so far, they shift like old grannies or women in general.

 

Hi Reloader,

As others have already responded, the factory program in these non-performance oriented trucks & SUV's is heavily compromised in a manner that the automakers feel will give them the absolute highest possible number of vehicle sales. Yo can use the search feature here to look up the thousands of previous answers to this exact same question, and to many other "basics" that come here time and time again, as each new person joins us here - this is one of what we refer to here as "the basics."

They (meaning *all* the automakers, not just Ford by any means)make them more appealing to women (who are buying more than 50% of all new vehicles sold in America) by doing things like reducing power and inducing slippage during upshifts to make them feel "smoother," also tuning the engine for the worst possible grade of fuel (even the 85 octane fuels in Mexico), etc., etc. By altering the program for a more performance-oriented calibration, we can restore the traditional "truck" type of feel & performance, as well as give more horsepower and torque by tuning the engine for higher quality fuel, and by allowing it to transition over into open loop much quicker, etc. Trucks used to feel like *trucks* - nowadays, they try to make them feel like Lincolns instead. Well, that's fine as far as some things go (like ride quality, everyone likes a smooth ride when cruising on the Interstate), but it's not fine when it induces additional slippage in the torque converter & inside the transmission, etc. - at least, as far as we are concerned.

In other words, the automakers have to think of considerations that we in the aftermarket do not - however, it still takes someone very qualified to do this competently - you don't want some no-brain removing the engine's rev limiter allowing the engine to blow, or cranking up the line pressure in the transmission so much that it overworks the front pump & causes premature wear, etc. - each vehicle needs to be tuned/calibrated keeping in mind it's design limitations, types of usage, fuel quality, etc., etc. - this is why solid R&D is required to make a proper & appropriate calibration for the powertrain that will not decrease service life, and that will provide only a positive impact on things like overall performance & driveability, while maintaining emissions compliance in street-driven vehicles as well.

Even in "performance" vehicles, the factory tune can still use a bit of improvement in many cases - I have never seen any factory tune that could not be significantly improved upon.

Now in all fairness (and this is out of respect for Ford's excellent powertrain engineers and people like "EngineGoBoom" (another respected member here) and other Ford employees who could do what we do, but are generally either not allowed to or don't because the automakers have *other* considerations dictated to them that affect potential sales numbers. So I want to make it clear that it's not that the great people working for FoMoCo absolutely *can't* tune these vehicles better, they just don't for the reasons you see here, most of which revolves around better sales. For example............. These trucks are purchased in fleet lots by construction companies that want the smallest engine and the cheapest fuel costs, etc............... and by women who are attracted to vehicles that "feel smoother," etc. The transitional shift delays & timing retards, failure to go into open loop or long delays to get into open loop, etc. types of issues in these F-150's are not there to increase service life - increasing slippage in an automatic transmission *shortens* it's life, it certainly doesn't help it live longer. And these transitional delays, retards, etc., are not just issues in automatic transmission models.

To give you some perspective, a couple years ago when the Z06 Corvette came out (again) - it's their top dog, their #1 performance vehicle - but it *still* had some tuning issues - for example, they had too much timing cranked into the low & mid-range, thus it was running in knock retard much of the time. Just fixing that to keep the PCM out of knock retard yielded another 20-25 HP (and even a bit more) at the rear wheels in the 1500-4500 rpm ranges. So even the most seemingly aggressive performance standard-bearer for an automaker can still have tuning issues that can stand some massaging.

The bottom line is, the aftermarket has been around as long as vehicles have been made, as there are few of us "enthusiasts" who do not want to improve some aspect of our vehicles - it's the typical American love affair with the automobile.

Doing some sensible bolt-on modifications, if selected wisely and installed properly, will *not* hurt a new vehicle - we don't advise strapping on a 150 HP shot of nitrous, but there are *plenty* of things you can do to improve power and performance (of which an optimized powertrain program is the single best bang-for-the-buck).

If you'd like to go over this in more detail, feel free to give us a call at our number listed below and I can go over exactly what's going on in *your* truck's programming and tell you just exactly how that can be improved, the benefits, costs, and the impact on how you use your vehicle (if any), if you like.

In the meantime, good luck with your truck!

 

Damn Mike, that put my explanation to shame !!!!



Everything is working great with the new chip, truck seems strong in certain spots. Thanks again !!!!!!!!!

Have Fun & Keep on Truckin'
Dean

 

Izzy

Just remember your place on the food chain: Mike tunes them and we drive them. Speaking of driving, how is yours driving after that dyno session at Walsh and installing that new tuning?



ENB

 

Peddler1000, it is good. Thanks for asking. We (guys that went to dyno with me) were rather surprised with the outcome at the dyno as I was pulling about 173 HP and 238 TQ from the original tune. The book states 205 HP with the manual tranny so to have a number like that is cool. The guys at Walsh ended up doing a little experimenting with my truck which ended up helping Mike with the new tune. They did one pull with the chip out and at 14 degrees timing and then we added the chip back into the mix. By setting the truck to 14 degrees and adding the chip, I got a pull of 176.6 HP and 236.4 TQ but I was still running lean at this point as well. Mike was able to see that even though the truck was running lean it still responded to the extra timing. I drove the truck like that for a bit but I ended up setting it back to 10 degrees (LIKE MIKE SAYS) because when the truck was warm, it wouldn't idle correctly. The truck feels much stronger in spots compared to before but I might have gotten use to the no-chip experience while Mike was doing the re-burn. Overall, I like what the truck is doing right now and am interested what the readings would be at a dyno again but that may come later when money and time permits.

Again ... Kudos to Mike !!!

Have Fun & Keep on Truckin'
Dean

 

Hi Dean,

Not at all - your explanation was right on the money, you've been an F-150 owner & F-150 Online member for years & years, so you know the score. I just ran off on one of my usual diatribes that basically said the same things you did.

Speaking of your tuning, yes, you were indeed running lean, and this is just one of many reasons why we like to get dyno numbers & A/F's so we can see just what the engine is actually doing - and then adjust the tuning from there if need be, especially when a 5.0 truck has headers, etc. The newer mod motor trucks don't have a the same problem with "shorty" headers (though they do with long-tube headers), as the upstream O2 sensor stays in it's original location. But on the older OBD-I 5.0's, it's a different story - For example, in the 5.0 V8 Explorers, just having an intake kit & a cat-back exhaust can lean them out quite a bit, requiring custom tuning just for those simple bolt-on mods! I have not seen any other 5.0 vehicle of any year *that* sensitive, only the coupla-few years they out a 5.0 V8 in the Explorers. But it's a good example of how you really need to specialize in this Ford truck & SUV tuning to really know their basic inherent tendencies, characteristics & problem areas, just as a *starting* point, and then dial in the tuning properly from there.

With regard to your power levels.......................

Assuming a stock rating in that 5.0 F-150 of 205 HP SAE Net (which is at the flywheel) and an AODE/4R70W automatic transmission and 2WD, that truck should have been delivering about 140 HP to the rear wheels (135 HP with 4WD) in stock trim. So having over 175 HP at the rear wheels is actually very good considering your actual levels of modification, that's not bad at all, even with it being too lean for best power - and it's obviously making more power now with better tuning, we just don't know exactly how much yet.

As you know, I would love to see the current A/F's & all other data (yours was the only truck of the 3 that your dyno facility did not datalog at all) actually is now with the new tune - we know it's obviously better as you now have more fuel in the areas that were too lean for best power. So whenever you get a chance to get that data for us, we'll take a look at that point in time and see if anything else in the tuning needs to be dialed in better.

Have fun,

 

Trust me Mike, if I end up at a dyno shop I will get the data the you are looking for. Even if I have to rent a scanner for the day from someone, I will get it. Not sure when that will be but hopefully someday this year.

Have Fun & Keep on Truckin'
Dean

 

Mike, any ideas on what I would be making at the flywheel? I know the post 97's are 69 HP lose via drivetrain but do you know what I lose through my drivetrain ????

Thanks again.

Have Fun & Keep on Truckin'
Dean

 

Hi Dean,

On a 2WD AOD-E/4R70W truck, the driveline loss is about 65 HP at stock to mildly modified power levels. With 4WD, add another 5 HP for a 70 HP loss.

So a 5.0 (302) 2WD automatic truck rated at 205 HP only makes about 140 Hp at the wheels in stock trim - the same 205 HP stock truck with a manual tranny should make about 170 HP at the wheels.

Now this is all assuming the truck can actually get into open loop to begin with - and some can't.

Now a 5.0 truck w/2WD & AOD-E/4R70W automatic making 173 HP at the wheels is making about 238-240 HP at the flywheel - 5 more if it's a 4WD.

 

N I C E !!!!

Considering I was making about 195 HP at the flywheel out of the factory, well at least that is what Ford said for my truck. 45 HP increase with 4 mods .... sweet !!! Well, that is not counting the new motor either .... LOL !!!!

Thanks Mike.

Have Fun & Keep on Truckin'
Dean

 

Hi Dean,

Those 5.0's have had all kinds of different factory ratings in the trucks, too - depending on if it was fuel injected or carb., speed density or MAF, etc. - and they are usually pretty accurate. Yours is obviously a fuel-injected MAF type.

Usually when you obtain a replacement engine, they are normally the same rating as your original stock engine - same cylinder heads, same camshaft, etc. One of the rare differences is with the 1997 & 1998 5.4 F-150's & Expeditions, where they were 235 HP stock, but *if* it was replaced with a 1999 & newer-spec 5.4 (the PI version), then it made 260 HP - *if* it had it's PCM reflashed to the appropriate code (which rarely happens). You almost always get the same basic power rating with the new engine as what yours was originally rated for new from the factory.

So assuming the engine is rated at 195 HP SAE Net (those are always flywheel ratings, of course), then you should have made about 130 HP at the wheels for a 2WD in stock trim, 125 HP for a 4WD. So making 173 at the wheels is pretty darn good in that scenario, considering your mods. I know from talking to Neal & JMC you guys feel you might have been given a bit lower power readings on the dyno - and it would be interesting to overlay that dyno plot with the new one since we've updated your tuning. Be that as it may, overall it sounds like the truck is actually doing very well considering it's state of modification. 170+ HP at the wheels sure beats the heck out of 130 HP at the wheels!

Talk about feeling bad about stock power levels, you should see the pre-1999 3.8 V6 Mustangs with an automatic - those motors were 150 HP flywheel, and with the AOD-E/4R70 automatic, typically only made about 85-90 HP at the wheels in stock trim on an accurate dyno - pretty weak! Last time I was at a dyno day down in Atlanta, there was a nice fellow who had one of those cars, and he had done a boatload of work to it - everything but a blower - ported & polished heads, bigger valves, big cam, TB, MAF, killer ignition, dyno-tuned to the nth degree, intake, headers, exhaust, etc. - you name it, except no blower or nitrous (Why he didn't just drop in a '99 & up 190 HP version of the 3.8 V6 and start from there I'll never know, but he sure had that older 3.8 humming along). Well, that little thing was cranking out an amazing 170 HP at the wheels - he basically doubled his power output at the wheels! It was an awful lot of work to put into a 150 HP 3.8 Mustang, but those are exactly the kinds of things we love to see - guys taking something different, something most people wouldn't bother with modifying, and end up making it run very good. Where there's a will (and the $$), there's *always* a way.

Have fun,