I had time to install the Superships Tuner Program tonight, but the Airforce One Intake and the Magnaflow Cat-back will have to wait for this weekend. I'm not sure I did the Transmission tuning right, will check the whole program tomorrow after work. Here's the report.

I got a faily substatial improvement in "power" in the mid-low to mid range RPM's (2000 to 3000+) seemed like I could feel a significant increase in what I assume is "Torque" and HP at these ranges. The shifting is more positive but I'm not sure it is maximizing the acceleration. It feels like if the shift would occur at a little lower RPM I would get a overall better acceleration. At WOT I shift about 5000 and it just seems to hang too long and bottom out on acceleration and I wait for it to shift and wait and wait . That's the way it was before the "tuning" too at WOT, on the floor. Seems like it would do better to shift at a little lower RPM, and pick up the acceleration back in the 3500 -4000 range.

When the tuner came up to the transmission shifting part of the tune, I elected the blinking "Superchips" on both shifting and pressure settings. Over all I'm pretty happy, but want to look into the shifting. Oh yea, It seems to have more braking deceleration now, is that a possibility, that the transmission helps more with decelration with this tuning?

Will keep you posted. Jon

 

If your running the 87 octane program make sure your using the best gas you can get. Citco, Conoco, Sonoco, Shell, and stay away from Amaco (since they sold out to BP) and the corner Food & Fuel. If your running one of the the 91 programs make damn sure you've got at least 91 in the tank. If you dumped 20 gals of 91-2 on top of 6 gals of 87 and you're not getting detenation you're probably ok but you won't see it all until you're running good 91 or 92 octane. And you need to give it a little time. The computer needs to settle in and "learn" your driving habits. Good gas and 80 to 100 miles and I think you'll be suprised. Don't play with it yet. Use the tuners default settings until you have a good idea what they will do. Then, if you want to play with it you'll have a better idea what you want to do. Mine will pull strong right to the shift and I get a chirp on the 1st to 2nd shift once in a while and I'm running the tow performance program.

 

I've played around with my shift points/pressures and have found the following seems to work best for my truck.

1-2 shift point is superchips
2-3 shift point is 1 click to the right of superchips
3-4 is 2 clicks away from max

1-2 shift pressure is max
2-3 shift pressure is max
3-4 shift pressure is max



I've also got a FTVB so the shifts are really quick and firm. I could prolly lower them some if I wanted a little smoother ride but they are fun like this. If mike see's this, Would or could any damage occur from running the FTVB and the shift pressures at max???

 

Hi Jon,

I'm so glad you posted that - now forgive me, as I'm going to shoot that theory full of holes here in just a second, but I'm very glad you brought this up, as many people really don't understand just how WOT upshift points work with regard to maximum acceleration in these trucks (or any other vehicle with a 4R70W transmission, for that matter).............

First - (and again, please do not take any offense!) - the problem here is that you're guessing, not testing - you're not doing any properly controlled timed acceleration testing to actually identify & compare the results, you're just guessing by the seat of the pants feel. Well, that does not work in heavy vehicles - you can *sometimes* get away with that with much lighter vehicles, like a 3400 lb. Mustang or 3600 lb. Camaros, etc. - not for heavy trucks & SUV's. Unless you actually do timed acceleration testing, you can't draw any accurate conclusions about "would it accelerate quicker with a lower upshift point?" If your tach is accurate, the answer is no, shifting at lower than 5000 rpm for the 1-2 will *not* result in quicker acceleration in these vehicles, and unless it's one of the heaviest configurations (say, 6000 lbs. or more empty), even the 2-3 shouldn't be below 5000 rpm for best acceleration.

As a rough & loose "general guideline" to use as a starting point, for best acceleration the WOT upshift points with the 4R70W in an F-150 should generally be 5400 to 5600 rpm for the 1-2, 5200-5250 rpm for the 2-3, and then for the 3-4, to help the tranny, it should be a bit lower - we don't like to see the WOT 3-4 above about 4800 rpm in the 4R70W trannies, simply because they don't tend to live long at higher power levels when doing a significant number of high-rpm full-throttle 3-4 upshifts (again, this is at higher power levels than stock) without a good performance build on the tranny.

Here's the actual key to this "mystery" - what has to be remembered are the actual gear ratios in the transmission - for the 4R70W, 1st gear is 2.84, and 2nd is only 1.55, while 3rd is 1.00 - that's a *huge* drop between 1st & 2nd, so you lose a *lot* of rpms on the 1-2 gearchange - thus in order to get the actual quickest acceleration, you have to wind the engine **at least** 300 rpm *past* it's power peak (which happens at about 4900-5000 rpm in bone-stock trim (not even a K&N filter), and at about 5100-5200 rpm with a good intake kit & cat-back exhaust system), so that you land in the best part of the power curve in 2nd gear - this is due to the large drop in rpms between 1st & 2nd gears. This is something that has been very well known for years & years in these 4R70W transmissions - it's one of the "basics" for us F-150 hot-rodders.

This is the difference between guessing and actually doing properly controlled testing - as we have preached for many years, we strongly recommend *never* attempting to judge *any* type of performance modification or change (including shift points) by the seat of the pants feel in any vehicle (car or truck) weighing more than about 3800 lbs. - especially in these 2-3 ton trucks & SUV's, it just doesn't work. I can knock a half-second off the 1/4 mile times and you usually won't even be able to feel that difference in the seat of the pants in these F-150's (unless maybe it's a Lightning).

The shape of the horsepower curve is very linear right up to the power peak, with no "holes" in it @ WOT - so the power does nothing but continue to increase all the way from idle to at least 4900-5000 rpm in bone-stock trim - nowhere in between idle & that level does it lessen - it continues to build until at least 4900-5000 rpm, and that's in bone-stock trim - and the power peak is even a little bit higher with an open intake & exhaust.

Also, it does *not* hurt the engine to spin it to 5000 rpm, or to 5400 rpm - that's still not above even the factory stock rev limiter in most cases, which will usually allow the engine to turn a full 5000 rpm even under no load (in Neutral or Park, or when the clutch pedal is depressed in a manual).

Here's an important point to remember - I absolutely *agree* with you that unless the intake & exhaust is opened up, the engine is not gaining rpms from about 4900 on up quite as quickly as it does below that rpm level - but that does *NOT* mean the vehicle will actually accelerate quicker with a lower WOT upshift point at all - it won't, and it's because of the huge drop in gear ratios between 1st & 2nd gears. So for the WOT 1-2, if you really want to accelerate the quickest, let it wind to at least 5400 rpm - but I do not advise doing that *until* you get the intake & exhaust opened up, so the motor can breathe better and thus not have to strain to get air in at higher rpms.

Even in the heaviest F-150 configurations, you still need to wind the 1-2 up to at least 300 rpm past the power peak for best acceleration - but on the 2-3, in the heaviest trucks we will sometimes see that it will accelerate a tad quicker if we upshift it at 4800-4900 rpm instead of 5200+rpm, depending on how well the motor can breathe - again, this is due to the weight of the heaviest configurations combined with the fact that the drop in ratio from 2nd to 3rd is only .55 - 1.55 to 1.00.

Overall, for the "typical" F-150 use, which is daily driver on the street & occasional tow vehicle, we usually recommend starting of with the default Superchips settings for shift points for the first month or so until you get used to it - then you can play with it if you like by setting the 1-2 upshift point 3 notches to the right of "ST" and then on the 2-3, 2 notches above "ST" - we have found this helps it to get back up into Overdrive after going up a grade that required a downshift back into 3rd get back up into 4th (overdrive) quicker after cresting the grade - just a driveability tip.

Then for those who want the absolute quickest acceleration, set them at the rpms as I outlined above - the 1-2 at 5400-5600 rpm, the 2-3 at 5200-5250, and then to help save the tranny, the 3-4 a bit lower, at about 4800 rpm.

I hope that info helps you to understand this a bit better - it's really all about the transmission gear ratios in the 4R70W, for the most part. If you'd ever like to do some timed acceleration testing without having to find an open drag strip, you can always use the GTech Pro Competition model - we've got them on our web site at www.TroyerPerformance.com

Have fun & best of luck!

 

Got to run my truck again tonight for about 20 miles or so. Drive to work with my wife since we work in the same town same schedule, and the diesel gets better mileage. Anyway. I am more impressed today than yesterday. Paid more attention to what was really going on. Shift is dinamite from 1-2 5200 at about 45 46 mph. Very crisp and you could almost hear that chirp. LOL 2-3 is at about 5200 and is very nice. 3-4 is at 5200 and seems to lag more than the other two, but very fast speeds. I think 80+.(This is an edit to original post. The shift at 80+- is from 2-3 not 3-4. #-4 is ovewr 100mph, and too fast on the open road for me. LOL Jon) That's the one that seems like it could be a little lower. There is definately more power with this chip. You say we should not be able to feel it, but boy I can. Much more response 2500 to 4000 or so. also downshifts happen way better. There were times when I went to pass before at about 55 to 60 and my truck would hesitate to drop into 3rd. Now it will jump to 3rd immediately upon depressing the gas pedal and will drop right to 2nd if enough rpms available. I really like it. I am hearing it will take several hundred miles to maximize. I will be doing that this weedend moving my daughter to a new job. Then put on the Airforce One ait intake I have and the Magnaflow Cat-back muffler system I have and should be set. Thanks for the techical explanations. Over my head some, but I think I understood. I DO undertand the faster acceleration my truck now has. LOL Thanks Jon

 

OK, you say the 3-4 shift should be lower than the rest of them. Basically the only time the shift will be at a high RPM is at WOT above 90mph right?

 

Great info, Mike, but what about my F150 with a 4R100. Have you got any recomendations on shift points for towing with a 4R100 on the tow performance program.

 

Mike...

not to argue, but I could feel a SOP difference in my 01 F150 when I recieved and installed my tuning chip that I bought from you!

 

Hi Everyone,

Since there have been several responses to my last post, I'll respond to everyone in this one post, in order..............

1st, for Jon (twoshots).............

Everything sounds very good except the WOT 3-4 upshift point - 5200 rpm is too high, we suggest lowering that to about 4800 rpm - try taking it down 2 "notches" at a time in the custom menu until you get it happening at not more than 4800 rpm. And of course, at 4800 rpm in 3rd gear you're *flying*, over 100 mph usually, so please be careful & don't get a ticket!

For mjc3834............

It doesn't matter if you are towing or not, the WOT upshift points should be the same to get the most performance, basically - though when towing, I hope *nobody* ever tries any full-throttle 3-4 upshifts, as that would *never* be appropriate. The WOT 3-4 happens at triple-digit speeds once the TS limiter has been removed, speeds at which nothing has any business being towed!

In the 4R100's, you can wind the 3-4 about 200 rpm higher than in the 4R70's (so you could go to roughly about 5000 rpm), as the 4R100's do flow a bit better fluid volume to the Overdrive band - but in towing, once again, thee should *never* be *any* WOT 3-4 upshifts, ever - that's far too fast to be towing *anything*, let alone behind a half-ton truck.

For the WOT 1-2 & 2-3, to get maximum performance you would use the same shift points as I listed above for the 4R70W - the power curve of the motor is the same and the gear ratios are also similar. So with the same basic power curve, use the same WOT 1-2 & 2-3 shift points.

For towing any real weight (say, 3500 lbs. or more), I do not think it's a good idea to take a stock transmission and push it to 5400-5600 rpm on the 1-2, whether it's a 4r70 or a 4R100. I'd say it depends on just how much weight is being towed, the more weight, the lower WOT upshift point, but in no case should the WOT 1-2 or 2-3 ever be lower than 4800 rpm. You;ll just have to experiment a bit to see where it "feels" best to you, where the powertrain overall seems "happiest" with whatever load you;re putting it thru - towing 4000 lbs., while a lot of weight, it not the same as towing 6500 lbs., etc., etc.

Now I really don't like pushing the 3-4 to 5000 rpm myself, it's just that if you really want to, you could push the WOT 3-4 to about 5000 rpm when not towing. Now keep in mind that this may not actually make it accelerate quicker, you'd have to test to determine that for your truck - and of course, the WOT 3-4 upshift is happening at very high speeds, so don't take risks to work that out - good luck!

Now for all of you.................

Sure, some people can actually feel the power gains from some mods in the seat of the pants even in these heavy vehicles - in our experience, in general it seems like it tends to be among those who maybe have more experience modifying these trucks (especially those who have owned more than one F-150), more of them do seem to be able to feel seat of the pants things. My point is just that for most people in these trucks, many just can't feel even a 20 HP gain in the seat of the pants - because while 20 HP is 20 HP, it's the actual amount of *change* in the vehicle's final power-to-weight ratio versus it's actual weight that really determines the seat of the pants feel.

Here's a scenario to illustrate.................

Take any 1999 or newer 3400 lb. Mustang GT, which makes 260 HP stock - it has a 13.08 lbs. per HP power to weight ratio - add another 20 HP, and that changes to a 12.14 lbs. per HP ptw ratio, and many people can feel that, as it's about a 7% change in the ptw ratio in a 3400 lb. vehicle.

However, take a 1999 or newer 260 HP 5.4 F-150 (and I'm using 99 & up model year examples just to compare a stock Mustang 4.6 that makes the same power as a stock 5.4 truck) that weights 5000 lbs. with a 260 HP 5.4, and it's stock ptw ratio is a whopping 19.23 lbs. per HP - well, add another 20 HP, and that drops to 17.85 lbs. per HP - which is a still about a 7% change, but that's a 7% change on almost a ton more *weight* - so it's nowhere near as easy to feel in the seat of the pants as it is in the much lighter Mustang. Thus, obviously in no case will a 20 HP gain in a 5000 lb. truck feel anything like it would in a 3400 lb. Mustang, even though the actual % of change to the power-to-weight ratio, and the percentage of increase of power to the motor is the same - very basic math.

So overall, we recommend to everyone not to attempt to "judge" performance mods in these trucks & SUV's by a seat of the pants evaluation, as that can lead to disappointment - it's amazing how many people expect 20 HP to feel the same in a truck as it did in their Mustang or their Camaro, etc. - and when they don't feel it, they swear there was no power gain, without ever once doing a before & after timed acceleration run. This is why we advise doing that testing, it's easy & cheap to do using a GTech Pro Competition model to actually see just what the acceleration times really are before & after - and do both the same day, doing the before & after testing within not more than a 90 minute time period - keeping in mind that 3 PM is usually the hottest time of the day.

Me personally - I can feel a 20 HP gain in our 6200 lb. 2004 F-150, but then we've owned numerous F-150's, we've modified Lord-only-knows how many of them, etc - so we have a lot of experience with this, as this is what we do for a living. But many times the "average" guy may not have that background or perspective, and so many times doesn't really feel those kinds of gains in a 2.5-3 ton truck - that's not to say that NOBODY can feel it, just that in many cases, the driver doesn't.

I'm *very* glad you guys *do* feel it, that's wonderful, of course!

Hope that info helps & have fun!

 

Always appreciate your candid comments and insightful help!

Oh wait, you're the rapscallion who is trying to pull the wool over our eyes, and whose only reason here is to SELL something!!!!

Sorry, it's the Devil making me do these things again.

 

Best series of Dialog I have read on this forum, ever!!!

 

That is a great picture of a great truck. You must have some artistic photograpic skills, or just happened onto a great picture that really shows the paint and lines (and garage door I might add) LOL but really the picture is great. Jon

I agree in the dialog. It has helped me understand a little about what is going on ( not too mechanical). Now all I've got to do is find out what an Open Loop is. Don't have a clue what it is or how it works. If I ever really need to know, I am sure Mike will enlighten me. Sure is great having someone with that knowledge who is willing to share with us. You got any idea how much time he must spend every night answering our questions. My hat is truely off, Mike!!!

 

Thanks Mike,
No hotrod towing for me. I'm quite happy with the default settings. I just wondered if there was any reason to adjust anything because I have the 4R100 instead of the 4R70. The majority of the F150 have the 4R70 and the micro tuner appeared to adjusted with that trany in mind. I didn't know if my trany had different gear ratios or not. I appreciate the direct responce. Thanks

 

Thanks.


Not sure how anyone could miss the small garage door. And the building has 256 feet of lighting. LOL



I've actually never taken any photo classes, just kinda take pictures that I think will look good. With the digital camera, you can take so many pictures that a few are bound to be good. Thats my protocal for taking pictures. LOL

Have a few more photo's.

 

and a little more of the sig picture.







OH,,,,fixing to go re-adjust mine and a friends truck for an improved setting!!!