It's exhaust time for me Mike T.
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Joined: Mar 2000
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From: IL. USA
It's exhaust time for me Mike T.
Hi Mike,
It's been quite some time since I've been back here at F150 online to visit. However, I come here for a good reason and that is because of all the helpful people on this site and the help you have given me in the past Mike.
The time has come for me to finally upgrade my exhaust....lol
I have been reading many of the posts and the Magnaflow system has all good reviews. I have been trying to decide between Magnaflow & Flowmaster. Since you deal in Magnaflow it must be a good product..
and I have decided to go with it.
I read with great interest one of your reply's to a members question about dual exhausts. You said something about a dual exhaust system that actually *gains* torque everywhere *can* be done, it's just very expensive. I would like to talk to you about that type of exhaust and I will be giving you a call soon to discuss it.
Looking forward to speaking with you again!
MGD1
It's been quite some time since I've been back here at F150 online to visit. However, I come here for a good reason and that is because of all the helpful people on this site and the help you have given me in the past Mike.
The time has come for me to finally upgrade my exhaust....lol
I have been reading many of the posts and the Magnaflow system has all good reviews. I have been trying to decide between Magnaflow & Flowmaster. Since you deal in Magnaflow it must be a good product..
and I have decided to go with it.I read with great interest one of your reply's to a members question about dual exhausts. You said something about a dual exhaust system that actually *gains* torque everywhere *can* be done, it's just very expensive. I would like to talk to you about that type of exhaust and I will be giving you a call soon to discuss it.
Looking forward to speaking with you again!
MGD1
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi MGD1,
Nice to see you again, it's been awhile!
The difference between Magnaflow and Flowmaster is literally night and day, with Flowmaster being just about the worst exhaust you can go with in a heavy vehicle, and Magnaflow being the best you can do.
And yes you're right, we *do* have a way to do a custom true dual exhaust that will give you more torque at any rpm and at any throttle position. There are a few of us running that more expensive setup like Neal & myself, Beastie & others, and it's *wonderful* to drive with, authoritative V8 rumble with no "droning" inside the cabin, sounds great & works very well.
Nice to have you drop by & talk to you soon!
Nice to see you again, it's been awhile!
The difference between Magnaflow and Flowmaster is literally night and day, with Flowmaster being just about the worst exhaust you can go with in a heavy vehicle, and Magnaflow being the best you can do.
And yes you're right, we *do* have a way to do a custom true dual exhaust that will give you more torque at any rpm and at any throttle position. There are a few of us running that more expensive setup like Neal & myself, Beastie & others, and it's *wonderful* to drive with, authoritative V8 rumble with no "droning" inside the cabin, sounds great & works very well.
Nice to have you drop by & talk to you soon!
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 742
Likes: 1
From: Kingsport, TN
Flowmaster uses chambers, which creates backpressure and can rob torque. Magnaflow's straight through design reduces backpressure, and thus gains horsepower.
I went from a 50 series Flowmaster to a 19" glasspack muffler (straight through) and I noticed a big seat-of-the-pants difference.
-Flea
I went from a 50 series Flowmaster to a 19" glasspack muffler (straight through) and I noticed a big seat-of-the-pants difference.
-Flea
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,856
Likes: 0
From: New Orleans
Backpressure has nothing to do with it. Velocity is what matters, and a flowmaster with the baffles in it restricts the flow thus slowing down the velocity. Magnaflow with the straight through design allows the velocity to increase, and there is no restriction.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi je3169 & others..............
I have to point out that this is the Computer Chips section, so we do have to make an effort to keep things on topic here. Sometimes it's a fine line we have to draw between providing the information that everyone needs (when time permits) versus keeping to the topic of this section..................
Just to provide some quick general info..................
Backpressure has *nothing directly* to do with torque, period, that is a misconception that is unfortunately spread by many people, even some exhaust manufacturers, & many muffler shops, etc. Sure, there are cases in which you lower the backpressure and you lose torque, but it wasn't because the backpressure was reduced, it's because the *velocity* of the spent exhaust gases was reduced by opening up flow without keeping the velocity up!
It doesn't take as rocket scientist to realize that introducing *more* backpressure will not increase torque, easily proven by adding more mufflers to any exhaust system: Backpressure will go up, while both HP and torque go down, due to the increased backpressure. So remember, backpressure does not = torque.
Stick a Flowmaster muffler or cat-back exhaust system on one of these trucks & what happens? Torque below about 3000 rpm goes right into the toilet, and there is not as much HP gain even at higher rpms compared to the better systems, due once again to poor overall flow engineering. Flowmaster uses those chambers & baffles as a way to try to control how much they "drone" inside the cabin, that's their attempt at noise control more than anything else. All those baffles & chambers are just impeding airflow, as anyone that's ever seen the inside of one of those mufflers can quickly see.
Cheap is cheap, and in a $200 - $300 cat-back exhaust system there simply is no money for both quality materials and real flow engineering specific to these heavy trucks & SUVs. So it's not just Flowmaster, it's virtually all the low-end systems and most of the higher-end systems too, that cause this loss of low end torque.
Many people think reducing backpressure causes a loss in torque, but that is not the case, it's what happens to the actual *velocity* of the spent exhaust gases, as I've explained in detail to Beastie & some others. When you open up flow but do not keep the velocity of the spent exhaust gases up you lose the scavenging effect that helps to pull those spent gases out of the combustion chamber and *that* is the specific mechanism that causes the basic loss of torque that happens when you install most exhaust systems.
Cost alone doesn't guarantee you flow engineering or better results, aside from the fact that no low end $200 or $300 aftermarket cat-back exhaust system is going to get what we would deem to be acceptable results, this happens to a somewhat lesser extent with many of the more expensive systems, too.
What you can get away with in a 3400 lb. Mustang you cannot get away with in a 5000 lb. truck or SUV, so this is something that you hear about mostly in these heavy vehicles, because for these vehicles part-throttle torque below 3000 rpm is absolutely *critical* to driveability, performance and fuel mileage, too.
Having a straight-thru design cetrtainly helps, but that is not the entire answer, either. The answer lies in the total flow engineerig of the complete exhaust system, and once of the most common mistakes people make is trying to take shortcuts, trying to spend less by buying a muffler and then having a muffler shop bend them up a 3" system to put that muffler in & thinking ha-ha, they just saved $200 or so over the cost of a properly flow engineered cat-back system. Wrong! That gives you no flow engineering either, so you don't get the results you could and should. It's not correct to think of all 3" single cat-back exhaust systems as being the same, because they aren't, they vary *widely* in their actual results.
This is just some very quick FYI basics, anyone wanting to do exhaust mods to maximize their actual results can give us a call & we'll be happy to go over what will work best for you.
I have to point out that this is the Computer Chips section, so we do have to make an effort to keep things on topic here. Sometimes it's a fine line we have to draw between providing the information that everyone needs (when time permits) versus keeping to the topic of this section..................
Just to provide some quick general info..................
Backpressure has *nothing directly* to do with torque, period, that is a misconception that is unfortunately spread by many people, even some exhaust manufacturers, & many muffler shops, etc. Sure, there are cases in which you lower the backpressure and you lose torque, but it wasn't because the backpressure was reduced, it's because the *velocity* of the spent exhaust gases was reduced by opening up flow without keeping the velocity up!
It doesn't take as rocket scientist to realize that introducing *more* backpressure will not increase torque, easily proven by adding more mufflers to any exhaust system: Backpressure will go up, while both HP and torque go down, due to the increased backpressure. So remember, backpressure does not = torque.
Stick a Flowmaster muffler or cat-back exhaust system on one of these trucks & what happens? Torque below about 3000 rpm goes right into the toilet, and there is not as much HP gain even at higher rpms compared to the better systems, due once again to poor overall flow engineering. Flowmaster uses those chambers & baffles as a way to try to control how much they "drone" inside the cabin, that's their attempt at noise control more than anything else. All those baffles & chambers are just impeding airflow, as anyone that's ever seen the inside of one of those mufflers can quickly see.
Cheap is cheap, and in a $200 - $300 cat-back exhaust system there simply is no money for both quality materials and real flow engineering specific to these heavy trucks & SUVs. So it's not just Flowmaster, it's virtually all the low-end systems and most of the higher-end systems too, that cause this loss of low end torque.
Many people think reducing backpressure causes a loss in torque, but that is not the case, it's what happens to the actual *velocity* of the spent exhaust gases, as I've explained in detail to Beastie & some others. When you open up flow but do not keep the velocity of the spent exhaust gases up you lose the scavenging effect that helps to pull those spent gases out of the combustion chamber and *that* is the specific mechanism that causes the basic loss of torque that happens when you install most exhaust systems.
Cost alone doesn't guarantee you flow engineering or better results, aside from the fact that no low end $200 or $300 aftermarket cat-back exhaust system is going to get what we would deem to be acceptable results, this happens to a somewhat lesser extent with many of the more expensive systems, too.
What you can get away with in a 3400 lb. Mustang you cannot get away with in a 5000 lb. truck or SUV, so this is something that you hear about mostly in these heavy vehicles, because for these vehicles part-throttle torque below 3000 rpm is absolutely *critical* to driveability, performance and fuel mileage, too.
Having a straight-thru design cetrtainly helps, but that is not the entire answer, either. The answer lies in the total flow engineerig of the complete exhaust system, and once of the most common mistakes people make is trying to take shortcuts, trying to spend less by buying a muffler and then having a muffler shop bend them up a 3" system to put that muffler in & thinking ha-ha, they just saved $200 or so over the cost of a properly flow engineered cat-back system. Wrong! That gives you no flow engineering either, so you don't get the results you could and should. It's not correct to think of all 3" single cat-back exhaust systems as being the same, because they aren't, they vary *widely* in their actual results.
This is just some very quick FYI basics, anyone wanting to do exhaust mods to maximize their actual results can give us a call & we'll be happy to go over what will work best for you.
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did i lose HP and torque by switching from stock to flowermaster???
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi je3169,
This is a yes and no answer, & I'll try to explain a bit..........
No, you did not end up with less *peak* horsepower over your stock exhaust by installing that Flowmaster, as virtually anything you do to open up flow will increase HP at full-throttle & higher rpms. So you did gain some HP, if it's the complete Flowmaster cat-back system you picked up anywhere from 6-8, maybe as much as 10 hp on a 5.4 F-150, and a couple less in a 4.6 motor. But you *did* lose torque below about 3000 rpm, especially on part-throttle.
You see, it's very easy to gain peak HP just by opening up the flow, putting a bigger pipe and a freer-flowing muffler on just about *any* vehicle will usually give it more *peak* HP, but what happens to *torque*, especially on part-throttle where you spend 80% of your time, is something completely different.
The stock exhaust in the 1997 & up F-150 & Expedition does a good job only in 1 area in terms of "power," and that is in keeping the exhaust velocity high to make torque below 3000 rpm on part-throttle. Everywhere else, the stock exhaust hurts power, as it doesn't have much flow capacity, and backpressure is high.
So what this means is that while it's easy to gain *peak* HP with just about *anything* you do to increase flow capacity in the exhaust, it takes some darned good flow engineering to keep the actual *velocity* of the spent exhaust gas up high enough to avoid the classic loss of torque on part-throttle that most people suffer when doing an exhaust mod in these trucks. And part-throttle torque is absolutely critical in these heavy vehicles, as it affects not just "power," but throttle response, performance, driveability and even fuel mileage. When you lose torque on part-throttle you have to use *more* throttle opening to get the vehicle moving and keep it moving, thus fuel mileage drops.
The only thing that really matters is that each vehicle owner is happy with what he or she has done, it doesn't matter what "Mike says" or anything else, *you* are the only person that needs to be happy with your vehicle. So what we generally tell people in your situation is that if you like the sound of your Flowmaster exhaust, then keep it, you've already spent the money on it, and it *is* giving you a little bit more peak HP. So instead of scrapping it to put a Magnaflow on there, just do other mods to get your torque back up and increase HP further, that is, if you still want more performance than what you've got right now. Then later on, if at some point you come into some extra money, you can always improve your exhaust & change out the Flowmaster *if* you want to.
If you want advice on what other specific mods to do to get more performance from where you are now, just give us a call & we'll be happy to go over that with you.
Have fun,
This is a yes and no answer, & I'll try to explain a bit..........
No, you did not end up with less *peak* horsepower over your stock exhaust by installing that Flowmaster, as virtually anything you do to open up flow will increase HP at full-throttle & higher rpms. So you did gain some HP, if it's the complete Flowmaster cat-back system you picked up anywhere from 6-8, maybe as much as 10 hp on a 5.4 F-150, and a couple less in a 4.6 motor. But you *did* lose torque below about 3000 rpm, especially on part-throttle.
You see, it's very easy to gain peak HP just by opening up the flow, putting a bigger pipe and a freer-flowing muffler on just about *any* vehicle will usually give it more *peak* HP, but what happens to *torque*, especially on part-throttle where you spend 80% of your time, is something completely different.
The stock exhaust in the 1997 & up F-150 & Expedition does a good job only in 1 area in terms of "power," and that is in keeping the exhaust velocity high to make torque below 3000 rpm on part-throttle. Everywhere else, the stock exhaust hurts power, as it doesn't have much flow capacity, and backpressure is high.
So what this means is that while it's easy to gain *peak* HP with just about *anything* you do to increase flow capacity in the exhaust, it takes some darned good flow engineering to keep the actual *velocity* of the spent exhaust gas up high enough to avoid the classic loss of torque on part-throttle that most people suffer when doing an exhaust mod in these trucks. And part-throttle torque is absolutely critical in these heavy vehicles, as it affects not just "power," but throttle response, performance, driveability and even fuel mileage. When you lose torque on part-throttle you have to use *more* throttle opening to get the vehicle moving and keep it moving, thus fuel mileage drops.
The only thing that really matters is that each vehicle owner is happy with what he or she has done, it doesn't matter what "Mike says" or anything else, *you* are the only person that needs to be happy with your vehicle. So what we generally tell people in your situation is that if you like the sound of your Flowmaster exhaust, then keep it, you've already spent the money on it, and it *is* giving you a little bit more peak HP. So instead of scrapping it to put a Magnaflow on there, just do other mods to get your torque back up and increase HP further, that is, if you still want more performance than what you've got right now. Then later on, if at some point you come into some extra money, you can always improve your exhaust & change out the Flowmaster *if* you want to.
If you want advice on what other specific mods to do to get more performance from where you are now, just give us a call & we'll be happy to go over that with you.
Have fun,
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 53
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From: IL. USA
Hi again Mike,
It was good to talk to you again a few days ago and I enjoyed our conversation. I always seem to learn something new in our chats and that alone is worth the call.
I can't wait for the new Magnaflow system to arrive. I think it will compliment my Superchip and K&N FIPK nicely. I'll let you know when it gets here. I'm sure I'll like it.
Thanks Again for your help!
MGD
It was good to talk to you again a few days ago and I enjoyed our conversation.
I always seem to learn something new in our chats and that alone is worth the call.I can't wait for the new Magnaflow system to arrive. I think it will compliment my Superchip and K&N FIPK nicely. I'll let you know when it gets here. I'm sure I'll like it.
Thanks Again for your help!
MGD
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi MGD,
You'll love it, it's not LOUD, just muscular, and it adds nice torque and horsepower gains all the time, at any throttle position and at any rpm. It will compliment your tuning & intake mods very nicely, now you'll have the motor breathing better in and out, along with the optimized tuning.
Have fun!
You'll love it, it's not LOUD, just muscular, and it adds nice torque and horsepower gains all the time, at any throttle position and at any rpm. It will compliment your tuning & intake mods very nicely, now you'll have the motor breathing better in and out, along with the optimized tuning.
Have fun!
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Member
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 53
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From: IL. USA
Hi Mike,
I had my Magnaflow system installed just over a week ago and it's GREAT! I noticed the difference in power right away. As a matter of fact when I jumped on it the belt started to squeel..lol Now I know it was probably lose before and I didn't realize it but I'm sure the extra HP I gained didn't help it...lol The belt problem is fixed btw.
The Magnaflow system has a real nice sound to it like ya said. Not too loud but enough to let someone know your coming. It sounds real good under a viaduct or closed in bridge..
hehehe
Thanks Again for all your help!
MGD1
I had my Magnaflow system installed just over a week ago and it's GREAT!
I noticed the difference in power right away. As a matter of fact when I jumped on it the belt started to squeel..lol Now I know it was probably lose before and I didn't realize it but I'm sure the extra HP I gained didn't help it...lol The belt problem is fixed btw.The Magnaflow system has a real nice sound to it like ya said. Not too loud but enough to let someone know your coming.
It sounds real good under a viaduct or closed in bridge..heheheThanks Again for all your help!
MGD1
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi MGD1,
Great, glad to hear your new Magnaflow exhaust is working out well. People are amazed that they can actually pick up that kind of power gian at any rpm or throttle positon from any cat-back exhaust system without it being BLASTING LOUD.
The Magnaflow has a strong, muscular sound & tone without driving you out of the cabin, so it works great for everything from the drag racer to towing vehicles to the family guy whose wife (and maybe kids, too) won't object to the sound.
Have fun & thanks for your post!
Great, glad to hear your new Magnaflow exhaust is working out well. People are amazed that they can actually pick up that kind of power gian at any rpm or throttle positon from any cat-back exhaust system without it being BLASTING LOUD.
The Magnaflow has a strong, muscular sound & tone without driving you out of the cabin, so it works great for everything from the drag racer to towing vehicles to the family guy whose wife (and maybe kids, too) won't object to the sound.
Have fun & thanks for your post!