$48.60 per HP with MicroTuner????
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hello Arkwildhog,
Always nice to see a reactionary thread title.
First, relax, you've got more than any 5 hp gain, as you can quickly confirm via acceleration time testing. As has already been pointed out by several people in this thread, you have several problems with the methodology, in addition to the fact that the PCM requires much more time, miles & drive cycles to see where the power is going to settle out at.
You have issues such as needing to do your runs in a 1:1 relationship, which is 3rd gear for the automatics, 4th gear for the 5-speed manuals. And in the automatics, unless the dyno factility has the ability to make the transmission stay locked in 3rd gear, the dyno pull won't even start until about 3000 rpm or so as they have to take it up to a high enough speed so that when they punch the throttle to start the pull, the transmission won't downshift. That means the dyno doesn't get much time to stabilize (another issue, though smaller to be sure), and if this is being done on a Dynojet or other inertia dyno, you'll virtually always read low anyway in a regular F-150 or similar heavy vehicle. Supercharged Lightnings will be just the opposite, reading too high, just FYI. On inertia dynos like a Dynojet, for example, as probably the single most popular chassis dyno, you generally have a static 3600 lb. load, which is much less than what these trucks weigh, & this throws off the results. Don't get me wrong, we love the fact that Dynojet & other inertia dyno makers have produced dynos that are affordable enough so that there are *far* more dynos available to the public than have ever traditionally been available before, that's wonderful to have a good tuning tool available, & the people at Dynojet do a darn good job. But when it gets down to dead-nuts accuracy, you have to take it with a grain of salt, and think of it more as a tuning tool than a dead-accurate device. This is perhaps the single most common mistake made, thinking of chassis dynos as all being accurate; they're not, and they vary widely, as do operators & techniques. Bigger speciality performance carmakers like Lingenfelter, for example, have numerous different types of chassis dynos at their facilities, sometimes 6-8 different manufacturer's units because of their various strengths & weaknesses.
The type of dyno aside, not enough time was allowed for the PCM has to adapt to it's new programming. The newer the vehicle is (especially by the time we get to the 2001 model year & newer), the longer that it will take for the PCM to pick up certain changes. Usually a minimum of 350-500 miles even in older vehicles, it's even longer in the newer vehicles, and this significantly hampers the ability to do the classic immediate before & after dyno pulls as you don't get the actual final results. This is something Superchips, us, & everyone else in the tuning business has to deal with all the time in determining the actual final power gains, and is just one of many reasons why we use several different testing methods, as well as using eddy-current chassis dynos. By the time we get to the with the 2001 model year, the EEC-V PCM is taking significantly longer than say, even a '97 or a '98 to pick up some changes............take for example, the top speed limiter, as this is something that has been commented on a number of times over the past few years here........it can take several attempts before being able to exceed the factory top speed limiter *after* the installation of the either the traditional Superchip module or the Superchips Micro Tuner in the newest trucks, roughly '01 & up. It may take 3-4 different attempts over different drive cyles before that particular function is picked up & you can run say, 115 mph, just for example. It always takes hundreds of miles and numerous drive cycles for any of the Ford EEC-IV & EEC-V PCM's to fully adapt to all the new programming, and as we get into the newer models, especially 2000-2001 & up, some aspects take even longer. For example, we started seeing with the 1999 model year that the final gain in mpg was taking much longer than it ever had before. Whereas we used to see by about 2-3 full tanks of gas where the cruising mpg would settle out at, we found some '99 FoMoCo's taking as much as 2000 miles to see the maximum mpg increase. And so on, it's just part of what we have to deal with.
It is always highly adviseable to fully clear the PCM both before & after any program change when any kind of formal testing is being done, that's one of the most basic requirements in trying to isolate the performance characteristics of different programs. This is done to wipe out all of the previous program even from the micro controller, as well as to wipe out any changes that adaptive strategy has caused.
So you've got some basic issues here with some of the methodology as well as the aspect of the PCM requiring much more time and many more miles & drive cycles to pick up all the various changes & not running it in 1:1, etc.
Scott, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that all these people we see here raving about the Micro Tuner aren't imagining things, all those posts couldn't happen if the Micro Tuner wasn't doing it's job. There are numerous posts over time in this section of the changes in acceleration times that their owners have measured, 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times, 1/4 mile trap speeds & outright top speed (for those few who actually get a chance to do that someplace safe) that all clearly show the performance improvement from the Superchips tuning, none of which is remotely possible with only a 5 hp gain.
There are many aspects to this, far too much to go over here of course, but suffice it to say that you've got more than a 5 HP gain already, as you'll quickly be able to verify with some acceleration time testing, and it will improve even further as you accumulate more miles. I'd suggest using the a GTech Pro, and specifically the newer "Competition" model, it's very affordable & it will give you all of the 0-60, 1/4 mile times, 1/4 mile trap speeds, calculated power levels at the wheels, G-forces, etc. The new Competition model is self-leveling too, it's the best inexpensive performance testing device & we highly recommend anyone who wants to quantify their before & after results pick one up. It'll pay for itself in just a couple trips to the chassis dyno, & it's always there on hand to test all future parts & modifications with. It's even got a "Christmas tree" function built into it, so you can do accurately repeatable standing start acceleration tests very similar to being at the drag strip, so you can practice your reaction times while getting all of your acceleration times and power levels at the rear wheels, all calculated at the same time. It's an excellent little tool to have for it's low cost. A lot of the members here have them & use them to do their before & after testing of their modifications, just FYI............
At this point I'd put 1000 or so miles on it with the Micro Tuner, then do some timed acceleration testing. Then return it back to the stock program running on 87 octane, and do that acceleration time testing again. This needs to be done at roughly the same approximate temperatures or as close as you reasonably can, just record whatever the temps at the time of each test along with the acceleration times so they can be properly compared. Do that and you'll quickly see just how much performance the Micro Tuner is actually giving you. Once you remove the Micro Tuner's tuning after having driven it for 1000 miles, you'll never want to go back to stock.
The bottom line is you just need to give it the time required for the PCM to fully adapt to the new program, and then do some acceleration time testing to compare the results & you'll see anywhere from a half second to as much as a full second off the 0-60 & 1/4 mile times, along with nice increases in trap speed as well, clearly showing the raw power gains.
I know you called us after you posted this, and we haven't had a chance to talk with you yet. I'll try to give you a call personally on Monday so we can go over this with you properly.
Talk to you soon,
Always nice to see a reactionary thread title.
First, relax, you've got more than any 5 hp gain, as you can quickly confirm via acceleration time testing. As has already been pointed out by several people in this thread, you have several problems with the methodology, in addition to the fact that the PCM requires much more time, miles & drive cycles to see where the power is going to settle out at.
You have issues such as needing to do your runs in a 1:1 relationship, which is 3rd gear for the automatics, 4th gear for the 5-speed manuals. And in the automatics, unless the dyno factility has the ability to make the transmission stay locked in 3rd gear, the dyno pull won't even start until about 3000 rpm or so as they have to take it up to a high enough speed so that when they punch the throttle to start the pull, the transmission won't downshift. That means the dyno doesn't get much time to stabilize (another issue, though smaller to be sure), and if this is being done on a Dynojet or other inertia dyno, you'll virtually always read low anyway in a regular F-150 or similar heavy vehicle. Supercharged Lightnings will be just the opposite, reading too high, just FYI. On inertia dynos like a Dynojet, for example, as probably the single most popular chassis dyno, you generally have a static 3600 lb. load, which is much less than what these trucks weigh, & this throws off the results. Don't get me wrong, we love the fact that Dynojet & other inertia dyno makers have produced dynos that are affordable enough so that there are *far* more dynos available to the public than have ever traditionally been available before, that's wonderful to have a good tuning tool available, & the people at Dynojet do a darn good job. But when it gets down to dead-nuts accuracy, you have to take it with a grain of salt, and think of it more as a tuning tool than a dead-accurate device. This is perhaps the single most common mistake made, thinking of chassis dynos as all being accurate; they're not, and they vary widely, as do operators & techniques. Bigger speciality performance carmakers like Lingenfelter, for example, have numerous different types of chassis dynos at their facilities, sometimes 6-8 different manufacturer's units because of their various strengths & weaknesses.
The type of dyno aside, not enough time was allowed for the PCM has to adapt to it's new programming. The newer the vehicle is (especially by the time we get to the 2001 model year & newer), the longer that it will take for the PCM to pick up certain changes. Usually a minimum of 350-500 miles even in older vehicles, it's even longer in the newer vehicles, and this significantly hampers the ability to do the classic immediate before & after dyno pulls as you don't get the actual final results. This is something Superchips, us, & everyone else in the tuning business has to deal with all the time in determining the actual final power gains, and is just one of many reasons why we use several different testing methods, as well as using eddy-current chassis dynos. By the time we get to the with the 2001 model year, the EEC-V PCM is taking significantly longer than say, even a '97 or a '98 to pick up some changes............take for example, the top speed limiter, as this is something that has been commented on a number of times over the past few years here........it can take several attempts before being able to exceed the factory top speed limiter *after* the installation of the either the traditional Superchip module or the Superchips Micro Tuner in the newest trucks, roughly '01 & up. It may take 3-4 different attempts over different drive cyles before that particular function is picked up & you can run say, 115 mph, just for example. It always takes hundreds of miles and numerous drive cycles for any of the Ford EEC-IV & EEC-V PCM's to fully adapt to all the new programming, and as we get into the newer models, especially 2000-2001 & up, some aspects take even longer. For example, we started seeing with the 1999 model year that the final gain in mpg was taking much longer than it ever had before. Whereas we used to see by about 2-3 full tanks of gas where the cruising mpg would settle out at, we found some '99 FoMoCo's taking as much as 2000 miles to see the maximum mpg increase. And so on, it's just part of what we have to deal with.
It is always highly adviseable to fully clear the PCM both before & after any program change when any kind of formal testing is being done, that's one of the most basic requirements in trying to isolate the performance characteristics of different programs. This is done to wipe out all of the previous program even from the micro controller, as well as to wipe out any changes that adaptive strategy has caused.
So you've got some basic issues here with some of the methodology as well as the aspect of the PCM requiring much more time and many more miles & drive cycles to pick up all the various changes & not running it in 1:1, etc.
Scott, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that all these people we see here raving about the Micro Tuner aren't imagining things, all those posts couldn't happen if the Micro Tuner wasn't doing it's job. There are numerous posts over time in this section of the changes in acceleration times that their owners have measured, 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times, 1/4 mile trap speeds & outright top speed (for those few who actually get a chance to do that someplace safe) that all clearly show the performance improvement from the Superchips tuning, none of which is remotely possible with only a 5 hp gain.
There are many aspects to this, far too much to go over here of course, but suffice it to say that you've got more than a 5 HP gain already, as you'll quickly be able to verify with some acceleration time testing, and it will improve even further as you accumulate more miles. I'd suggest using the a GTech Pro, and specifically the newer "Competition" model, it's very affordable & it will give you all of the 0-60, 1/4 mile times, 1/4 mile trap speeds, calculated power levels at the wheels, G-forces, etc. The new Competition model is self-leveling too, it's the best inexpensive performance testing device & we highly recommend anyone who wants to quantify their before & after results pick one up. It'll pay for itself in just a couple trips to the chassis dyno, & it's always there on hand to test all future parts & modifications with. It's even got a "Christmas tree" function built into it, so you can do accurately repeatable standing start acceleration tests very similar to being at the drag strip, so you can practice your reaction times while getting all of your acceleration times and power levels at the rear wheels, all calculated at the same time. It's an excellent little tool to have for it's low cost. A lot of the members here have them & use them to do their before & after testing of their modifications, just FYI............
At this point I'd put 1000 or so miles on it with the Micro Tuner, then do some timed acceleration testing. Then return it back to the stock program running on 87 octane, and do that acceleration time testing again. This needs to be done at roughly the same approximate temperatures or as close as you reasonably can, just record whatever the temps at the time of each test along with the acceleration times so they can be properly compared. Do that and you'll quickly see just how much performance the Micro Tuner is actually giving you. Once you remove the Micro Tuner's tuning after having driven it for 1000 miles, you'll never want to go back to stock.
The bottom line is you just need to give it the time required for the PCM to fully adapt to the new program, and then do some acceleration time testing to compare the results & you'll see anywhere from a half second to as much as a full second off the 0-60 & 1/4 mile times, along with nice increases in trap speed as well, clearly showing the raw power gains.
I know you called us after you posted this, and we haven't had a chance to talk with you yet. I'll try to give you a call personally on Monday so we can go over this with you properly.
Talk to you soon,
Last edited by Superchips_Distributor; Jan 19, 2003 at 02:25 PM.
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: Arkansas
Mike, let's just say that my excitment over getting the micro tuner has not gone down. Yesterday and today (after clearning the PCM), I've noticed better results. For some reason I assumed that the results would be more immediate (this is why I did the dyno the way I did), but we all know what happens when you assume something. Look forward to talking with you on Monday. Thanks
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi arkwildhog,
Wow!
Good grief, it must not have been more than a couple of minutes, literally, from the time I pressed the send button until the time I saw your response already up!
Glad to hear it's already responding better with a few more miles on it, and that will continue as you accumulate more miles. We'll get a chance to go over all of that in proper detail when we get together over the phone tomorrow.
Thanks for your quick response!
Wow!
Good grief, it must not have been more than a couple of minutes, literally, from the time I pressed the send button until the time I saw your response already up!
Glad to hear it's already responding better with a few more miles on it, and that will continue as you accumulate more miles. We'll get a chance to go over all of that in proper detail when we get together over the phone tomorrow.
Thanks for your quick response!