Mike, since you stay away from the Exhaust forums and this thread has good information, I wanted your opinion on something I've been thinking about.

First, I have a 99 Ext cab Lariat ORP 5.4L 3.73 all stock, except the poor man's open element K&N with stock intake tubing. I'm looking for power first as I already know I like the Magnaflow sound. I've been studying a lot on exhausts and that is my next upgrade. I was planning to do a custom Magnaflow exhaust. Cut the factory y-pipe, run two pipes into a Magnaflow 2.5: dual/3" single and then either keep the stock tail pipe, or use a Magnaflow 3" pre-bent pipe. I really think one of the major flow restrictions is the factory y-pipe, especially for a 5.4L. I have also considered the Magnaflow 3" all stainless system, which has consistently given noticeable improvements in power. I assumed the #15609 system keeps the facory y-pipe, but a couple of your posts hint at otherwise. Can you confirm if it does or does not replace the facory y-pipe? If it does not, then I have considered using the system and replacing the facory y-pipe with a better flowing one like Magnaflow. Would that open it up too much for a basically stock 5.4L?


TIA,
Aaron

 

Hi Aaron,

No, the Magnaflow cat-back system does *not* replace the factory Y-pipe, that is in fact a separate part.

We can provide not only that complete Magnaflow cat-back system, but also a proper Y-pipe in the same gauge & alloy as Magnaflow uses.

Yes, we do think it's a good idea to get the factory Y-pipe off of there for another few HP & good flow in general, but I would stick with that complete Magnaflow cat-back system, as you are not going to get comparable results or cut costs significantly doing a muffler shop job.

Doing a custom tru dual setup can be done, but I don't recommend it for most people due to the expense. It's much more expensive to do duals *right*, so that there is no loss of torque anywhere, and BIG power gains *everywhere*. We can supply the components for a tru-dual system that will achieve this, increasing torque all the time at any throttle position or rpm, but it's going to be more expensive than the Magnaflow cat-back system to do it right, and it will be a bit louder, too.

We only advise going with tru duals for those of us who are willing to spend what it takes to get the power that can potentially be made from the exhaust, like some of us have done, myself, Neal the HP Freak, Beastie, & some others. For everyone else, which is the vast majority, using the standard Magnaflow cat-back system is the best way to go, and it will support an easy 400+ HP and do a *great* job overall, better than your proposed "custom" setup.

You won't save anything significant if you're using quality materials, so there's no sense shorchanging the results, just use the complete Magnaflow cat-back system, which is a single 3" system that outflows any other and still keeps exhaust velocity to a maximum for torque.

This is too detailed for the boards and of course, isn't appropriate here in the Computer Chips section, so I suggest giving us a call to go over this properly, cover all the various options, configurations & pricing on complete systems and/or the raw components, etc.

 

Mike,
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have to disagree with you on the ORP adding 2" of height. To my knowledge the only things that make up the ORP is skid plates, shocks and a sticker at the rear of the bed. (At ~$300, way overpriced too). BTW, the new FX4 package is the same stuff, just Rancho-branded shocks.

My brother and I had virtually identical trucks before we each traded up to SCrews. '99 SC 4x4 same drivetrain. Only real difference was color and he had ORP where I had Sport Package. Both had 17" wheels and same size tires. Both trucks were parked side by side on a few occasions and I made note that they were the same height. Later I cranked the torsion bars on both trucks the same amount and the height was still the same on both. I just can't see how the ORP can make a truck any higher. That would require different curvature of rear springs or more leafs. (Torsion bars could possibly be cranked up from the factory, though) I have read here that the new FX4 package trucks have them cranked form the factory, don't know if this is fact or not.

If I am incorrect, educate me, please. Thanks

 

I don't know if I notice a 2" drop between the ORP and non-ORP 4x4's. The non look tall with small wheels to me.

Mike, what would be the difference in performance between the full Magnaflow 3" system and a 3" SISO Muffler and the 3" Magnaflow mandrel bent tail pipe? As far as I can tell, the tail pipe is stainless and it has a 4" tip on the full system. For $150 I'd prefer the universal straight through muffler and tail pipe. The $250 savings could mean a superchip for example.

 

Hi RebelYell,

I'd certainly say there is indeed significant variance, and you do raise an interesting point. But one of the most basic elements of the Off Road package is increased ground clearance.

In actually measuring it, it certainly varies from one vehicle to the next, we've seen different ride heights on every configuration, we've seen ORP's at different heights, 4X4's at different heights, and 2WD's at various heights..................over time they'll all settle a bit as the springs sag, and sometimes not evenly, at that. I've never seen (to date) a 4x4 without the ORP that was all-stock and was as tall as a 4x4 w/ORP, say, our 2001 5.4 w/ORP. For example, at this moment I'm looking at a staffer's 1997 F-150 4X4 without the ORP & our 2001 4x4 *with* the ORP, both sitting right here, and the difference in height is obvious. Now in all fairness, by now that 6-year old 1997 model may have settled a bit over time, but I don't believe that it's settled any 2".

Another factor here is the 7700# package, as that has yet another ride height spec, and that's a variable that isn't generally obvious in a casual look at a vehicle.

This is something we've talked about with Edelbrock, Bilstein, & other shock manufacturers (by "this" I mean the factory ORP packages), as well as suspension part manufacturers. We have to work with numberous manufacturers of course, including shock absorber manufacturers, suspension part manufacturers, etc, with regard to lifted, stock, & lowered trucks, etc., on vehicles like GM's with their Z-71 package, F-150's with the ORP, etc. Most shock manufacturers will use the same shock on the 4x4 with and without the ORP in the F-150, and for some that works OK, while for others it doesn't. With the Edelbrock IAS unit for example, they do work OK with the ORP or without it.

What would really be nice would be to see the actual ride height design specs for every available combination, seeing Ford engineering's actual specs for ride height with all the various configurations & options, etc., from 2WD to 4WD w/ & w/o ORP, the 7700 package, the Sport package (which in the 2WD's gets 1" lower in front, dual piston SuperDuty brake calipers & matching rotors up front, the Stirling 9.75 rear end instead of the standard 8.8, etc.).

It would also be nice to see the actual measurements from the top of the tire to the bottom of the center of the wheel well lip on all the different combinations, as I have no doubt that in all of that we'd find significant variances.

Sometimes I wonder just how accurate all of this can actually be controlled in full-speed assembly. Many of us have been on numerous Ford assembly lines, & of course Ford has a world-class build system etc., but we still see variances & buildout errors, etc. (this happens with virtually all automakers of course) This is where the original engineering design specs are needed to really sort this out.........................

 

Hi APT,

The only way you're going to get the results of the Magnaflow cat-back system are to use the complete system that is actually flow-engineering for these vehicles, period. Taking shortcuts trying to save money here will only reduce your results and is *not* going to achieve that, and their "universal" pipes are just that, the same for a GM or a Ford, and not stainless, they're aluminized.

To go over the exhaust in any more detail, please give us a call, it's just not appropriate for me to keep typing that all out here in the Computer Chips section, and we can cover more in a 5 minute phone call than by typing for an hour. Thanks!

 

I didn't think this thread was going to turn into a discussion on the differences between trucks, but just out of curiosity I went to 2 local Ford dealerships and compared trucks side by side. Thank you to Tom Wood Ford and Don Hind's Ford and their helpful staff(s).
Here is what we found:
The SCrew trucks appear to be about an inch and a half taller across the entire platform. There appear to be only minor height differences of less than half an inch between the rest of the trucks. It made no difference whether the trucks had ORP, FX4 or were standard 4X4. We couldn't find any on the lots for sale that had the 7700# package in F-150 models to compare and there may indeed be a difference because of springs etc. The published #s show no difference, but since I couldn't see a 7700# package with my own eyes, I dunno.
I had earlier called my friend who works in service at Don Hind's and he looked up the specs and found that in 2001 there were no major differences in height on any of the Supercab 4X4 models regardless of trim (the short wheelbase models were almost a half an inch taller than the long wheelbase ones though). Weight however did vary.
For example, 4x4 Supercab 138.5" wheelbase 5.4L w/auto:
Flareside 6500# GVWR=4786#
Styleside 6500# GVWR=4744#
Styleside 7700# GVWR=5030#.
These #s are the base curb weight and the 7700#GVWR was only listed for the Styleside.
He could not find a weight spec to show the difference between the ORP and standard in the few minutes he had, soooooo...
I took him to lunch and we took 2 trucks that were nearly identical (one had the ORP and one did not) to the gravel pit down the road where we drove them onto the scales and weighed them. These were used 2002 models. Both of them were Supercab 4X4 shortbed flareside and neither had bedliners, tonneau covers or any other signifigant additions or deletions. The weights were 5012# for the standard 4X4 and 5198# for the ORP, driver and gas included. I was in the ORP and I weigh about 50# more than my friend who was in the standard 4X4. So minus that known value and forgetting any other difference there was about 135# difference between the 2 trucks.
I later took my truck and it weighed in at a hefty 5560#. I had the camera with me for that one but forgot to take it with us in the other trucks. I also took some pics on the lot of both new and used trucks. I am not posting all of them, but here are a few that show what I found quite well.

Take care
Darrin

 

Interesting.....but as I said, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I am gonna drop it. I was only throwing out my real world observations for consideration.

Anyhooo..... back to 'puter chips..... ordered my microtuner yesterday by phone!! Can't wait to get it. Mike was on the phone with another customer as usual, so I ordered it with Anita who is very polite and professional. (You did good by her, Mike ) But, i was hoping to get to talk in person to The Man we all chat with here all the time. Troyer Performance has the best customer service of any company I have ever dealt with. (I also bought a SuperChip from TP which required some "special handling" for my last truck)

Thaks for your presence here Mike.

 

I was very impressed by the quality of service and the attention I was paid as a customer. The Microtuner I bought from them gave me some pretty impressive results at the track in the consistency department. It honestly paid for itself with the winnings, both monetarily and grin factor wise.
I don't know if you have the fans yet, but they really seemed to give me a boost in throttle response. I did see an increase in fuel mileage and performance, though not an incredible one, but the truck seems to jump when you poke the throttle much more than it used to.
I am sure you won't be disappointed.

BTW, on the differences between the trucks, I am not trying to do anything but find the facts. God knows that I have been wrong before and I never mind when I am because I learn from the experience. I was unaware that there might be a difference in the height of these and still cannot find one is all. It doesn't help that Ford doesn't have the detailed specs even at the dealer service level.

I appreciate Mike and the info, service and assistance he provides. I learn something here nearly every day. We will be talking come exhaust time.

Take care
Darrin

 

Hi Darrin & RebelYell,

Thanks very much for your praise, we only hope we can continue to earn it.

Thanks also for all the efforts being put into figuring out this height variance on the difference models/configurations, it's very interesting data (at least, to me). I think one thing that may be more of a factor in this than we realize is the 1.5" height difference in the SuperCrews, along with the taller height of the regular cab models. Those 2 factors may be skewing our casual observations, in other words. We see more SuperCabs than SuperCrews, but have never kept specific track of height differences, as we really only deal with that as it affects suspension parts, primarily.

What you've found there may explain some of what we've been told by various people we've spoken with at Edelbrock, for example, as we've had one of their people say there wasn't a difference in height, while another said there was a difference but it was 1.5", a few others said yes, there was a 2" difference. They all (at Edelbrock) said the same IAS shock is used for 4x4's with & w/o the ORP on the Ford F-150s, & that's our all-around general favorite shock for these trucks, for most uses on the street.

We really only know what we see here, and what we've owned, and we've never really had any reason to do specific "research" or searching thru dealer lots looking specifically for height variance. So it's actually very nice to see someone putting all that effort into this, the data you're accumulating is indeed helpful.

Weighing your truck was also helpful in confirming my estimation of the weight difference between your truck & one of ours, the '01 ORP we've been referring to. It showed a little bit larger weight variance than I originally thought, at 400-500 lbs instead of the 300-400 lbs. I had thought, though not a big difference.

It's not a big surprise that the regular cabs are a bit taller than the SuperCabs, there's less weight & that alone may explain why the regular cabs are taller than the SuperCabs, if they're using the same springs. It would be interesting to see if there is any difference in ride height with the 7700 lb. package as well, I'd bet there probably is.

The bottom line is, good work & thanks for all your efforts on this height thing, I find it fascinating.

You're running darned quick for 5500 + lbs. with not many mods. Your trap speed is still several mph lower than what I would normally expect even with a stock exhaust for a 16.700 run, though it's not quite so far off on a 17.23 ssecond run, it's still a bit puzzling given our bone-stock time of 19.4 seconds @ 80 mph. Your ET is obviously happening early on in the run, with 2.4 second 60' times (which are excellent for your weight & power level), it's just not pulling on the big end. That's OK, once you get that exhaust taken care of properly, I think you're going to find a larger-than-normal improvement there, since by now it's a bit of a bottlecork.

By the way, looks like you're cutting some decent lights there, you were pretty consistent on that 16.77 dial in, you're putting a gate job on them & running closer to your dial-in too, a sure-fired recipe for winning at the track.

Have fun,

 

Mike,

I'm just getting around to where I can start modifying my effie.

I've got a 1998 F150 regular cab, 4x4 ORP, flareside, 4.6L.

I'm impressed with what I've seen in regards to the Superchip. Actually the flip chip seems more along the lines of what I need. I also want to work on the exhaust. With the magnaflows, do you recommend putting different headers on along with the rest of the cat-back system? Is it possible to put dual pipes (doesn't have to be tru dual) on the 4x4 flaresides (I've never seen it, so I wondered)?

Abotu how much would the flip chip and magnaflow system ( with or without new headers) cost? I'm looking for a ballpark figure. Once the bank account is in the same ball park, I'll give you a ring.

Magnum

 

Hi Magnum,

A regular-cab ORP, eh? We don't see many of those overall, neat vehicle. Nice to see that it's a flairside too, that's the most attractive body style to me, though of course you know what opinions are worth on anything so individualistic as styling!

The 2-program Superchip Flip Chip would be used anytime you want a dual octane configuration or anytime you have any need or desire for 2 different performance programs, also anytime you need custom engine tuning, as in that case it's actually cheaper than the single program Superchip + custom tuning fee. No problem, easily done!

On the exhaust, there we'll really need to go over this in proper detail over the phone, as there are a number of factors that must be taken into consideration that we will need to discuss & specific questions we'll need to ask you, in addition to the basic issues of budget.

Headers are a completely separate issue for the most part, and can be approached separately; they can be done at the same time or later on, to reduce the initial upfront capital outlay for the parts, and that can be important for a lot of people as you'll spend more for the headers than for the rest of the exhaust system in most cases, just to give you an idea. Headers generally come well down the list in terms of their actual bang for the buck value. The rough order of bang for the buck would be the Superchips tuning, an intake kit (AF1), the right cat-back exhaust system using Magnaflow components, our non-COP 4.6 ignition system upgrade, electric fans & underdrive pulleys; headers would come after all of those modifications in terms of their actual bang for the buck value to performance. That doesn't mean you can't do them before all of those other parts of course, I'm just giving you a rough idea as to their relative bang for the buck value as compared to other performance modifications, just in case you may not be familiar with that, as it generally influences decisions.

If it were my vehicle, I would address the optimization of the powertrain programming with the Superchips tuning, do an Air Force One intake kit, and do a Magnaflow exhaust setup of some kind *before* I would do the headers, but of course this is again based on the actual bang for the buck value to performance, the performance gained per dollar spent, and you may want to do things differently.

There are bolt-on "shorty" style headers, which allow you to retain the factory catalytic converters, and then there are "long tube" headers, which are the traditional full length header with normal collectors so they gain more power (generally 14-17 HP for JBA shorties versus 25+ HP for long-tubes on a 4.6, and the difference is more and more as power goes up further). Longtube headers cost more than shorty headers do and further require you to ditch the factory cats too, replacing them with aftermarket high flow units and thus basically doing a complete custom exhaust system from front to back, raising costs significantly as compared to jsut doing a nice set of JBA bolt-on shorties. Doing a complete long-tube header exhaust will cost quite a bit, and it is generally only done by those adding superchargers or those who are otherwise chasing every last horsepower with money being no object.

As you can quickly see, just the headers alone require some careful consideration & discussion of all the options, factors, what's affected, etc., in addition to the obvious stuff like results & costs. Don't worry, we'll make all that simpler than it sounds.

Give us a call & we can put all this together for you so it will make proper sense, go over all your needs, vehicle uses, performance goals, etc. to make our recommendation on the exact exhaust configuration and which way to go on the headers, should you decide to do them. Then you can make your choices based on being completely informed and knowing all the various costs associated with each configuration, option & choice. We're happy to help you get exactly what will actually suit your needs best. Don't feel you have to order immediately to call us, you need to be able to get proper pre-sales support & advice, so we're happy to do that.

We can't quote any specific pricing here as that's against the rules of F-150 Online, so we'll need to go over that privately as well when you call (our phone number is below), & thanks very much in advance for your understanding on that, it's greatly appreciated.

Good luck with your truck & talk to you soon!