Capacitor???
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 61
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From: Thomaston,Ga
Appreciate the info as I was considering buying a cap for my system to supplement the amp on peaks. But for my listening taste- No Rap just classic rock/rock/some country and Celtic is seems irrelevent. Thanks guys for saving me that $59. That buys a lot of blank CD's !
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 883
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From: Atlanta, GA
Bottom Line: Caps are good if you love your music. They will improve speaker cone control, dynamic response and transient response. Amps above 100 watts are typically not built with enough capacitance to address the issue of music dynamics. The test results, although nice, are inconclusive due to the fact a regulated power supply was not used and was not done using real musical content and reactive load to show actual impedance changes from the speaker system as well as transient responce throughout all frequencies.
If you love your music and truly are a critical listener wanting the absolute best sound. Invest in the capacitor you will hear the difference primarily in increased transient response and a more true to the original playback.
If you love your music and truly are a critical listener wanting the absolute best sound. Invest in the capacitor you will hear the difference primarily in increased transient response and a more true to the original playback.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 3
From: Eastern TN
And I suppose a car's electrical system is a "regulated" power supply ?
Give me a break. If the amps are of good quality and the power wire is sufficiently sized and the vehicles' electrical system is working properly a giant cap WILL NOT appreciably improve the system's sound quality.
They are not magic, they are simple electrical components. Gee, I wonder why McIntosh, Carver and Krell manufacture amps that can drive 1/2 Ohm loads, at 2 or 3 thousand watts, and yet they don't have 1 or 2 farads worth of capacitors in their power supplies?
On top of it all, like the listening environment that is available in a typical vehicle could possibly be used to do critical listening.
Sorry for the rant, but my BS detector went off and I couldn't stop it...
Give me a break. If the amps are of good quality and the power wire is sufficiently sized and the vehicles' electrical system is working properly a giant cap WILL NOT appreciably improve the system's sound quality.
They are not magic, they are simple electrical components. Gee, I wonder why McIntosh, Carver and Krell manufacture amps that can drive 1/2 Ohm loads, at 2 or 3 thousand watts, and yet they don't have 1 or 2 farads worth of capacitors in their power supplies?
On top of it all, like the listening environment that is available in a typical vehicle could possibly be used to do critical listening.
Sorry for the rant, but my BS detector went off and I couldn't stop it...
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 883
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From: Atlanta, GA
Think your BS detector may be broke B-man. It definitely is giving you false alarms. I have been in the car audio industry since it's infancy. I also have extensive field test and engineering experience in RF transmission facilities (which by the way also use the same amplification technology). Therefore let me put it to you this way. Lab environment is all well and good in many applications. However, the lab environment when setup properly is supposed to mimic real life application. The simple fact is a speaker is a reactive load. Don't believe me? Get yourself an ohm-meter connect it to the speaker and check resistance while the speaker is at rest. Next take your hand and move the cone back and forth. What is happening to the needle of your meter?? Swinging back and forth increasing and decreasing resistance is what is happening. Therefore, we go to the what exactly does a cap do? Well, it stores up power and discharges rapidly at sustained voltage levels for short bursts (typically 2-10 seconds of sustainable voltage). Could this be beneficial to your amplifier that has imediate demand of say 40amps of current for 1-2 seconds every oh say every 5-10 seconds worth of playing time? Absolutely! Again, do not take my word for it take the word of other lab results available out there. Oh by the way, I never said anything about the effects of inadequate power source or a capacitor helping to cure inadequate power source. A CAP IS NOT A CURE FOR LACK OF SUFFICIENT POWER SOURCE. I merely point out that adding the cap will help to increase power from your amp before clipping of the sine wave which in turn equals greater control of speaker cone movement. And these my friend are directly related to SQ. But like I said, doubt if you want and I will continue to win sound offs and enjoy my music to the best of my equipments ability. Now before you reply with some off the wall comment think to yourself about what exactly an amplifier is and how the AB and D class amplification actually works. Basic break down is if you have a sustainable power source the amp will give you sustainable output. All the cap does in the simplest of terms is add extra cranking amps, for lack of a better term, during short timeframes when it is required. Now to your defense I would say that a cap will not help smaller amps (below say 200-300 watts) since the requirements are relatively small. However, many high powered audio systems far exceed electrical system ratings but only for very short timeframes. In actuality the only reason caps came on the scene in the first place is because as the competitive circuit got more advanced the competitors began looking for that extra edge and the capacitor gave them that until it was shared with the rest of the car audio world. Anyway back to the main root of my original reply. A cap will help you and you can tell a difference in the response you will get from your system provided you know what to listen for and LISTEN CAREFULLY. Oh and since you like McIntosh and Carver amps why don't you talk to their tech line and see what their input on adding a cap to your system is. I am sure will find it is directly inline with what I am saying.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 3
From: Eastern TN
No, my BS detector is working quite well actually. I knew you were in the car audio business the minute I read your post.
1st off, RF has little to do with audio. The basic theory is the same, but as you like to point out that is in theory; reality is RF and audio are worlds apart.
Second, although you may not like using lab results as were provided by my friend, they are at least a factual place to start to evaluate something. Especially in something as hard to measure as people's perceptions of sound quality, quantity, etc. the lab info is more important than ever. Definitely a better source of info than a sales pitch from someone in the industry, or their "experience" with a product. By the way, did you notice the values of the caps he used ? It would be the equivalent of 4 farads or so if the typical recomendations stated by audio "experts" were used. In other words, he used 4 times as much as recomended and still the results were negligible, to say the least.
As far as your "speaker being a reactive load test", that is a red flag at to your knowledge of audio mechanics. A speaker is an inductive load, thus making your meter experiment useless. If you put a meter on a speaker, it will likely read down in the milli-ohm range. A meter outputs DC current, which "sees" only the physical resistance of the wiring in the voice coil. When you move the speaker cone, the meter deflects because you are generating a current flow in the voicecoil (and thus back into the meter), not because the speaker's resistance is changing.
A speaker's resistance to current flow is measured in impedance, not resistance, just for this reason. I agree, it changes with frequency, but unless you are listening to a steady tone from a signal generator, the values are basically useless. That is why the speakers impedance is always listed as an average across 20HZ - 20KHZ, the theoretical bandwidth of most humans hearing.
So much for basic electronics; this is a waste of time. Anyone who states that:
and then turns around and states:
is trying to justify adding them to any stereo and does not have a realistic grip on the subject matter at hand.
The scenario you are talking about is directly linked to the sound output contests audio sales have been sponsoring for years now. It has NOTHING to do with the majority of folks using these forums. If you are trying to achieve 170db, you are not into car audio for the sound quality; you are into sound quantity.
All I was doing was posting that:
1. A cap will not cure an inadequate power supply system
2. A cap will not make an audible improvement in the majority of truck stereo systems, played at realistic volume levels
3. A cap would be a very poor investment for the majority of folks using this board
4. It borderlines on dishonesty to tell someone what a big difference they are going to hear if they spend $100 on something that may not even be needed in their particular configuration or listening style.
5. The money spent on a cap would, in most cases, be better spent on higher quality speakers, amps, etc. for most folks on these boards.
Bottom line is: Unless you have money running out of your ears AND you are competing in a "sound off" AND you have already bought the best possible speakers, amps, etc. a cap is a terrible way to try and make an audible improvement in your stereo system.
Again, sorry for the rant. I was once taken advantage of by an "audio expert" before I got out of school. After I completed my electronics training, I was pi$$ed that I was so stupid and bought what I did, based on complete BS.
When I reply to questions here now, my electronic engineering background probably shows through...
1st off, RF has little to do with audio. The basic theory is the same, but as you like to point out that is in theory; reality is RF and audio are worlds apart.
Second, although you may not like using lab results as were provided by my friend, they are at least a factual place to start to evaluate something. Especially in something as hard to measure as people's perceptions of sound quality, quantity, etc. the lab info is more important than ever. Definitely a better source of info than a sales pitch from someone in the industry, or their "experience" with a product. By the way, did you notice the values of the caps he used ? It would be the equivalent of 4 farads or so if the typical recomendations stated by audio "experts" were used. In other words, he used 4 times as much as recomended and still the results were negligible, to say the least.
As far as your "speaker being a reactive load test", that is a red flag at to your knowledge of audio mechanics. A speaker is an inductive load, thus making your meter experiment useless. If you put a meter on a speaker, it will likely read down in the milli-ohm range. A meter outputs DC current, which "sees" only the physical resistance of the wiring in the voice coil. When you move the speaker cone, the meter deflects because you are generating a current flow in the voicecoil (and thus back into the meter), not because the speaker's resistance is changing.
A speaker's resistance to current flow is measured in impedance, not resistance, just for this reason. I agree, it changes with frequency, but unless you are listening to a steady tone from a signal generator, the values are basically useless. That is why the speakers impedance is always listed as an average across 20HZ - 20KHZ, the theoretical bandwidth of most humans hearing.
So much for basic electronics; this is a waste of time. Anyone who states that:
"If you love your music and truly are a critical listener wanting the absolute best sound. Invest in the capacitor you will hear the difference primarily in increased transient response and a more true to the original playback"
"In actuality the only reason caps came on the scene in the first place is because as the competitive circuit got more advanced the competitors began looking for that extra edge and the capacitor gave them that until it was shared with the rest of the car audio world"
The scenario you are talking about is directly linked to the sound output contests audio sales have been sponsoring for years now. It has NOTHING to do with the majority of folks using these forums. If you are trying to achieve 170db, you are not into car audio for the sound quality; you are into sound quantity.
All I was doing was posting that:
1. A cap will not cure an inadequate power supply system
2. A cap will not make an audible improvement in the majority of truck stereo systems, played at realistic volume levels
3. A cap would be a very poor investment for the majority of folks using this board
4. It borderlines on dishonesty to tell someone what a big difference they are going to hear if they spend $100 on something that may not even be needed in their particular configuration or listening style.
5. The money spent on a cap would, in most cases, be better spent on higher quality speakers, amps, etc. for most folks on these boards.
Bottom line is: Unless you have money running out of your ears AND you are competing in a "sound off" AND you have already bought the best possible speakers, amps, etc. a cap is a terrible way to try and make an audible improvement in your stereo system.
Again, sorry for the rant. I was once taken advantage of by an "audio expert" before I got out of school. After I completed my electronics training, I was pi$$ed that I was so stupid and bought what I did, based on complete BS.
When I reply to questions here now, my electronic engineering background probably shows through...
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
B-Man,
Yes I can tell from your posts that you are well versed in the field of electronics. You obviously have also had some experience in the car audio industry as well. Anyway, I do appreciate your replies and hold them in high regard. I also hold your friends test results as plausible to some extent. But also wanted to state that it could have been done to achieve more realistic results since there is the importance of simulating your test bed to real world application. To your benefit I also stated the importance of an adequate power supply. In most systems (300-400 watts) that the average consumer would have. The stock charging system and battery would be adequate for most of their power demands (note: I am only referring to the electrical system in the F150 which to my knowledge most come stock with 100 amp altrenator and decent size battery). However, if they compete, or have the desire to, my suggestion to them is to add the cap. Now, also you said the cap is for SPL only applications but that is simply not true. Granted that is more than likely where you will get the majority of the gains (i never questioned that) it will still help your transient response and tighten control on your speakers. I personally have built many competitive sound systems and competed in IASCA pro-division for about 4 years. If you remember when IASCA was formed it was not about SPL and therefore the caps were not originally added for the SPL gains they added. Do you remember back in the late 80's early 90's timeframe IASCA rules only allowed 140db max? Therefore the main intent of the competitors utilizing the caps in the first applications was primarily for the benefit of increased transient response and cone control.
Well both sides of this debate have their good and bad points. For those on a budget it is not really a must have or else situation anyway. If you truly are a fanatic about sound they will help. Notice I never once said in my postings that they are some modern day miracle or quick fix for any problems.
You could look at it like this, most stereo shops want a customer to be happy. If you got a cap installed and din't like it or didn't think it gave you any benefit then take it back and they will more than likely give you money back, exchange or store credit. Oh, and if they don't then your probably dealing with the wrong shop and should look elsewhere.
Hey B maybe next time your around the Atlanta area you will want to take a listen to my system (not even remotely an SPL machine) but instead a simple SQ phenom.
----------------------------------------------
EPX2 28-band EQ Chip installed
Veritas 44VD Accuwaves up front
RF 360.6 for power
4-8" subs in undisclosed locations
----------------------------------------------
Think I am going to soon be making some changes in the sub department. I kinda look forward to retuning the aperiodic membranes anyway.
Yes I can tell from your posts that you are well versed in the field of electronics. You obviously have also had some experience in the car audio industry as well. Anyway, I do appreciate your replies and hold them in high regard. I also hold your friends test results as plausible to some extent. But also wanted to state that it could have been done to achieve more realistic results since there is the importance of simulating your test bed to real world application. To your benefit I also stated the importance of an adequate power supply. In most systems (300-400 watts) that the average consumer would have. The stock charging system and battery would be adequate for most of their power demands (note: I am only referring to the electrical system in the F150 which to my knowledge most come stock with 100 amp altrenator and decent size battery). However, if they compete, or have the desire to, my suggestion to them is to add the cap. Now, also you said the cap is for SPL only applications but that is simply not true. Granted that is more than likely where you will get the majority of the gains (i never questioned that) it will still help your transient response and tighten control on your speakers. I personally have built many competitive sound systems and competed in IASCA pro-division for about 4 years. If you remember when IASCA was formed it was not about SPL and therefore the caps were not originally added for the SPL gains they added. Do you remember back in the late 80's early 90's timeframe IASCA rules only allowed 140db max? Therefore the main intent of the competitors utilizing the caps in the first applications was primarily for the benefit of increased transient response and cone control.
Well both sides of this debate have their good and bad points. For those on a budget it is not really a must have or else situation anyway. If you truly are a fanatic about sound they will help. Notice I never once said in my postings that they are some modern day miracle or quick fix for any problems.
You could look at it like this, most stereo shops want a customer to be happy. If you got a cap installed and din't like it or didn't think it gave you any benefit then take it back and they will more than likely give you money back, exchange or store credit. Oh, and if they don't then your probably dealing with the wrong shop and should look elsewhere.
Hey B maybe next time your around the Atlanta area you will want to take a listen to my system (not even remotely an SPL machine) but instead a simple SQ phenom.
----------------------------------------------
EPX2 28-band EQ Chip installed
Veritas 44VD Accuwaves up front
RF 360.6 for power
4-8" subs in undisclosed locations
----------------------------------------------
Think I am going to soon be making some changes in the sub department. I kinda look forward to retuning the aperiodic membranes anyway.
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: Thomaston,Ga
cgorris/B-Man,
Didn't mean to start a p!#@$ing contest, but it sure was educational ! First I have significant mid/high hearing loss in my right ear from firearms, airplanes, and Black Sabbath/Deep Purple/ZZ Top concerts at the old Omni in Atlanta. I was looking for the right mix of amps/accessories(caps) that would provide an acceptable level of sound and not push th F150 electrical system. Thanks cgorris for the info on the battery and altenator. I installed a pair of Infifnity Kappas 572.5f yesterday in the front and am planning my next move with the amps. My HU is a Pioneer MP5500. I have a Kenwood 4 ch. KA -642 circa 1989 model and just got a US Acoustics 2080. Should I bridge the US Acoustics at 280W to drive a single 10' VR10 or Bridge the Kenwood- 250 W to drive the sub? Will the Kappas sound Ok with the 80w US Acoustic amp supplies ? cgorris did you make the competition in Doulas Ga. last week?
Thanks,
Ricksta
Didn't mean to start a p!#@$ing contest, but it sure was educational ! First I have significant mid/high hearing loss in my right ear from firearms, airplanes, and Black Sabbath/Deep Purple/ZZ Top concerts at the old Omni in Atlanta. I was looking for the right mix of amps/accessories(caps) that would provide an acceptable level of sound and not push th F150 electrical system. Thanks cgorris for the info on the battery and altenator. I installed a pair of Infifnity Kappas 572.5f yesterday in the front and am planning my next move with the amps. My HU is a Pioneer MP5500. I have a Kenwood 4 ch. KA -642 circa 1989 model and just got a US Acoustics 2080. Should I bridge the US Acoustics at 280W to drive a single 10' VR10 or Bridge the Kenwood- 250 W to drive the sub? Will the Kappas sound Ok with the 80w US Acoustic amp supplies ? cgorris did you make the competition in Doulas Ga. last week?
Thanks,
Ricksta
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
Ricksta,
I retired from the competitive circuit in 96. They just started changing the rules and the judges they began using for SQ just were not the same quality guys they used to use. Well, that and I really don't have the time to compete like I used to. It was much easier when I worked in an shop to get time to compete since I rep'd the shop at the events. Anyway, no I didn't get to the show in Douglas (worked instead).
I would put U.S. Acoustics on the sub and keep the 642 for the mid/high's. Provided you don't crank the gains and get the amp to clip terribly the sub would last virtually forever (that is of course until the elements have their way with it) And yes the Kappas will do nicely with 642. Many people get thrown off by wattage ratings since that has been one of the widest abused specs in the car audio industry. But trust me 80w RMS is plenty of power to keep up with that single 10" sub using the mid/high's you selected.
I retired from the competitive circuit in 96. They just started changing the rules and the judges they began using for SQ just were not the same quality guys they used to use. Well, that and I really don't have the time to compete like I used to. It was much easier when I worked in an shop to get time to compete since I rep'd the shop at the events. Anyway, no I didn't get to the show in Douglas (worked instead).
I would put U.S. Acoustics on the sub and keep the 642 for the mid/high's. Provided you don't crank the gains and get the amp to clip terribly the sub would last virtually forever (that is of course until the elements have their way with it) And yes the Kappas will do nicely with 642. Many people get thrown off by wattage ratings since that has been one of the widest abused specs in the car audio industry. But trust me 80w RMS is plenty of power to keep up with that single 10" sub using the mid/high's you selected.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
Ricksta,
I forgot to suggest something to you. Since you stated you have hearing loss in the mid to upper range you may want to have a good friend help you set the gains on the mid/high amp to ensure you are not clipping the amps to a point you will damage the speakers.
I forgot to suggest something to you. Since you stated you have hearing loss in the mid to upper range you may want to have a good friend help you set the gains on the mid/high amp to ensure you are not clipping the amps to a point you will damage the speakers.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
From: Copple Crown Mountain NH
To finish up the long posts above, your doing the right thing by not spending money on a cap. You can't "hear" the difference. It's the same marketing for somebody saying you can hear the difference in "monster cable". BS Hype, save your money.
