well i guess in response to the oink oink comment....thanks.

but anyways, i was not paid to do it. the truck runs fine. they tested my friends truck as well, an 06 fx4 and another truck as well. they put on a volant on as well and had fitment issues and horsepower actually decreased on higher rpms....kinda sucks cause i was going to buy the volant before i got the outlaw.

 

Hey guys, I emailed Aaron at Outlaw this morning expressing my concerns with CEL. I also received a new UPS shipping notification from them last night (I have everything already) so I asked him what this was about....here is his response:

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The code is not being set while under full throttle.

Idle is the only time that there is a lean condition and by lean condition I mean that based on your long-term and short-term fuel trims, they are outside of the computer specifications. These specs are set by the manufacturer for emissions purposes (EPA).

Here is why you will have a lean condition at idle:
1. You are flowing more air at idle (w/ aftermarket intake).
2. The computer compensates by adjusting your fuel trims
3. During/after the computer compensates, it determines that it is adjusting too much (again based on predetermined specs).
4. The computer can handle the adjustments under all other load conditions and RPMs


Question: "Can't you simply reduce the flow at idle?"
Answer: Yes, but then you reduce flow across the RPM range as well. This may be OK in some cases because most systems flow too much air. BUT, in this case if you reduce the flow at idle you reduce the power across the RPM range. The trick is to make it run within specifications at the same time make power. We will not release an intake system that would not make power, so we are purposefully tuning to the edge of the outer limits according to the computer's specs. This does not create a lean problem except at idle. We will tune it so that all trucks will not have a CE light.

Question: "So if it is only at idle, what are the trims off idle?"
Answer: The fuel trims are well within specs during all other loads and RPMs. We know this through datalogging and snapshots of when the computer sets the code. The dynamics of idle are very different from drivability.

The bottom line: We will make it work with all vehicles, because we can, but we do want to retain as much of the power as we can. We will not put an obstruction to reduce the flow because it will affect the overall performance, it is simply getting our production tubes dialed-in exactly the same as our prototypes. The first batch of tubes are going to make the most power, but they are closest to the edge of the computers outer limits. We are adjusting the manufacturing to get our next batch further within the specs to avoid a chance of CE lights on the rare occasion.

Installation changes: We have made a change to the tube by sectioning it off into two pieces. This will assist in aligning the system during installation, making it a little bit easier to compensate for variations in vehicle configurations.

One major advantage to all customers (there are very few) who participate directly with Outlaw Power, they get free updates. So, if we do make any adjustment or update, those in our database will receive it automatically. This is to answer your question as to why you received a UPS notice, you will be receiving a new tube that is sectioned. IT also has a separate section for you to use if a CE light were to occur. We are manufacturing our next batch to fall within specs and should eliminate the majority of chances for a CE light.

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So, I am feeling alot better. Plus, there was a comment that we are being used by Outlaw as guinea pigs. Well, this isn't a bad setup. As Outlaw continues to update their intake system, the users also get this update. So you aren't stuck with an old model. So I am getting a new tube which will address the fitment issue I had expressed in the beginning, and it will even better address the CEL issue.

Just sharing what I have....

 

that's good that they're updating your product as it gets refined. but still, a lean condition causing problems puts the ONUS on you, not them if a repair is needed.

the original Volant did the same things...it was also redesigned. I have yet to hear about a single CEL from people with the new design.


btw, the statement "You are flowing more air at idle (w/ aftermarket intake)." is pure B.S. you are not flowing more air. you are using the same amount of air as with a stock setup. If you were flowing more air, your motor would have be idling higher. Only a certain amount of air/fuel can fit into the cylinder while N/A. Without a supercharger/turbo, the only way to increase the air "charge" is variable valving, bigger cams, or the engine under a load

The CAI just makes it easier for the motor to breathe. A motor basically is just one big air pump. If it's easier to draw air in, then less HP are lost parasitically...therefore more efficient and more HP. (Ride a bike without the brakes applied, then ride it again using the same exertion with a light brake applied...same principle)

 

That's so cool that Outlaw Power has available updates, sort of like in the software world.

Correct, an engine is an air pump with a set stroke volume.

The statement "You are flowing more air at idle (w/ aftermarket intake)." is pure truth.

As we recall from high school chemistry, pv=nrt ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law )

As applied to a low restriction air intake tube, this causes a lower pressure drop than with a high restriction tube. This means that the pressure (p) at the cylinders is higher with a low restriction tube. Higher pressure means more oxygen molecules (n) are drawn into the engine's cylinder volume (v). Leaner by definition means proprtionally more air is being drawn in, not less.

 

I agree with you, if something goes wrong because of the lean condition, then the onus is on me to repair. Not Outlaw.

But at what point should one be comfortable with any aftermarket intake? If someone was to install the Outlaw and another the Volant - If neither person was to get a CEL who is to say that they both aren't running dangerously lean without throwing a CEL? Do we just assume that Volant is better because more people have it? I am not attacking Volant at all. I am just raising a hypothetical question on aftermarket intakes. Dataloggin and dyno runs are the only real way to tell. I am going to look into data logging and custom tunes soon. I figure a little money now into a custom tune could save me alot of money later from dealing with a lean engine - I would say anyone running an aftermarket intake should consider this as it will make you run more lean than stock - how much more lean is a huge question. As we have seen, these trucks can be so different.

 

Dyno'ing with a wideband O2 sensor and datalogging is the way to go. That way you can monitor and plot the air fuel ratios with varying rpm and load.

The 2004 model's ecu is programmed to be too sensitive thus tripping a lean condition at idle. Ford corrected this ecu problem with the 2005+ models. This is why the 2005+ models don't show CEL's even with the same air fuel ratio's being datalogged as the 2004 models.

 

They used my truck also...I have had it on for about 2 or 3 months also...mine is a 04 F150...no lights or any problems on my end.....they had us run them for months before you guys even got your intakes. We were not paid to be testers - we just got the product very early.

 

I have an 04 5.4L and have tried 3 different CAI myself. My findings are as follows, 1. Airaid- No CEL, No power, no good for the $$$. 2. AF1- great power, did give a CEL on numerous ocassions, Diablo sport eliminated it by turning up the fuel curve by 5% reducing any gas savings. Didn't trust it on a new truck, so i replaced it. 3. K&N FIPK- good power, no CEL, very good price. Well worth it IMO. What you guys prob don't know is the K&N uses a tube raising the throttle body off the intake manifold. This gives the truck very good throttle response. If you want max HP, it's not the one for you. But if you have a daily driver that wants more power at good price without a CEL, give the FIPK a shot.

 

I guess I should follow up with some of my impressions on the performance. Like with any intake on these trucks, its not mind blowing. I live just outside of DC, so sadly the majority of the time I am creeping along. But, the first time I really realized the power is when I pulled out of my street onto the main road last night. I was making a left and its kind of a blind turn. So the second I go, I see a car come around the corner, so I give it some more gas. Normally, I would kind of have a slight panic (not that I cant make it, just that I am making this guy slow down a bit). Not the other night!! The truck just moved right out there. Performance was great. I have also noticed that when climbing some slight hills, the truck used to downshift. It seems it can hold the same gear now and maintain speed and even slightly accelerate without downshifting.

Its been 4 days since the CEL and it hasnt come back. My new tube from Outlaw is coming on Friday, so I will get pics of the old tube and the new tube for you guys. I hope you are all finding this helpful.

 

I got my new 2 piece tube today as well as already installed it. Let me tell ya, it fits a lot nicer. You have to turn the 90 rubber elbow coming out of the throttle body a little more towards the filter, but the 2 piece design lets you fine tune the position to more towards your liking. Also by doing that it puts slack back into the MAF wire.

 

Thanks to the guys giving us their impressions and feedback on this new product. I am very interested in buying this and this information will help in deciding.

 

That's a bit of a leap to conclusions. One guy has it installed and gets one CEL, and that's it, game over, it's junk. Geesh, give it a chance, it just came out. Let's wait a little bit more before we throw this baby out with your bath water.

 

OK - point taken - I apologize for the subtlety of my intended sarcasm !

My point on the # of reperesentative vehicles the manufacturer tested this intake on (NOT including all future customers = unwitting guinea pigs) is still valid and I still stand by that criticism.

Stu, you know full well that these trucks vary wildly, unlike just about any other platform; it's crucial that the sample space for any R&D take that into account.

That's all I'm sayin' okay?

Cheers
bubba

 

Good to know, I was trying to picture in my head how the two-piece tube would work. Good to know that things fit better and it puts some slack back in the MAF wire.

 

I was kicking around the idea of getting one of these.

Think I'll hold on till I see an A/F and Dyno.

Freaking out over one CEL in sort of an over reaction. While I agree, it's NOT good come on guys. Remember not to long ago all the cars had carburators, and guess what. If you had a well tuned performance carb and lived in say Denver, and decided to drive to, say, Houston, you were running lean the ENTIRE time, simple altitude can make that happen.

Cars didn't always have EFI. I remember having to pull spark pugs and LOOK to see if I was running lean, and that was mainly becuase I was always goofing around with the carb.

If you let the lean condition persist yes, you have higher cycinder temps and could potentialy crack a piston or burn valves. Thats why you should ALWAYS dyno after any sort of intake/exhaust/tune mod. 11 to 1 is the lower end that you want to be at, for performance you may want to be as high as 13 to 1. I can't tell you for sure becuse I've never tuned my 5.4, so I'm not exactly sure how it reacts.

Like it was posted a good body dyno should be three pulls for 75-150 and it could save you thousands.