Alright not the f150 but it is a ford engine.... block.

It is a boat with a Mercruiser, Ford 302 block, 351 heads and 351 cam. That is how it comes from the Mercruiser factory.

This is long but I think you'll need to know the history to have an idea of what I might should check.

My issue is that I keep going through starters. I've had two different places rebuild the starter this year. 3 or 4 times at the first place, then went to another place out of town 35 miles away that everyone kept telling me is the best that I should take it to there. It might start it a dozen or so times, then all of a sudden it kicks out and spins. Then the entire engine is locked up until you pull the starter out. First time it sheared the pin on the drive in the starter. Second time, third time, the shop couldn't get it to work at all. I could easily turn the engine with a ratchet on the crank with out the starter in. So I followed everyones advice and quit working with that place. Went to the other place, and they said the bushing had never been replaced the first time and the armature was warped and the drive was bad. Another $60 later, and it worked.
Tried it several times in the yard to make sure till I was confident it was going to work before I put it in the water. Went out and started it maybe 6 times on the water. Brought it home, and a water hose broke, so had sat for a month waiting on it to come in. Put the hose on to day, hooked up the garden hose to test for leaks, went to start it and it turned about 2 rotations then kicked out and same thing again. Starter just spins, engine is locked up.

Now I'm wondering if the fly wheel bolts have backed off throwing it into a bind and breaking the drive. I'd like some second opinions on this because I have to pull the engine to check that. What would you suspect and where would you check first? Lets start with the simplest and cheapest things first. I've never had a starter much less several starters lock up an engine like this. So I don't know where to look. Honestly don't know how it is even locking it up. Any Ideas?

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas. Sorry for the long post.

 

can you bar over the engine? leave the started in place and turn over the engine, try in both directions. if it doesn't turn but will once the starters has been removes then something is wrong with the starter.

are the mounting bolts too long? hitting the flywheel.
is it the correct starter? different tooth flywheels use different toothed starters.
maybe rebuilding it isn't fixing the problem, try replacing with a new starter.

 

When an engine stops it stops in almost the same place every time depending on how many cylinders so most wear happens in one place on the flywheel ring gear.
Take a look at the teeth on the started gear for any sign of damage. Take a look at the teeth on the flywheel for the same thing. Any kind of missalignment will distroy the starter. Call mercruiser for the starter model to make sure.

 

No it wont turn either direction using a break over with the starter in it. Pull the starter out and it turns freely, well minus compression. But it's nothing I can't easily turn with a 3/4" drive ratchet. I'm using the same original bolts, and since it's the same housing I wouldn't think it should need shims because it didn't have any before...

I had wondered if it wasnt the gear on the dirve just a little different than the original one. Of course the first shop has already thrown the old one away becasue tha twas back in march or so, so can't look and see.

I'm really hoping that it might be something else to check a "new" replacement starter is $400 if/when I can find one.

Maybe I'll pull the boat up to that other shop and let them look at the fly wheel and see if it is the right drive gear.

Thanks Lee

 

Thanks uknigel2, that makes for another good reason to pull the boat up there, let them check everything to see if it's worht trying another rebuild or what.

As I'm calming down and thinking about it, it could be a bad housing, maybe a small undetectable crack or something letting it torque. Becasue this is sorta what the orginal starter did last time out last year, then had it rebuilt and soon same thing, took it back, they did get it one more time, but soon same thing again, now this one after another rebuild. this last time at the new place said the armeture was warped, so that implies to me that alot of torque has been applied at an angle.

 

Well with the help of our very own Brewdude, I found a new starter for $212, ($250 w/ shipping). So I bought it, came in friday, I put it on. Started it here in the yard 3 or 4 times. Took it to the lake, and it started right up, then died.... coil wire went bad.... no continuity end to end, took a little while to find that, but anyway, while trying to find that, was cranking on it today, not long enough to hurt, and waiting several minutes between cranks. Finally found that and just as I grabbed another coil wire of another vehicel to test for sure.... starter went out before I got to fire it up... SAME EXACT THING!
Drive went out abendix is stuck 1/2 out. Won't go in and won't engage, just spins.

ARRRRG

Closely inspected fly wheel, for loose and run out. Fly wheel is fine, few marred teeth but not enough to hurt anything. This new starter had an anodized gear, so on this one I could see where it is hitting... it appears to be hitting deep, so going to shim it, but it's not hitting the bottum of the gear. Some teath on the starter have marks further back on them than others... What could that mean?

I'm this close to taking it to a shop...
ll
yea that close...

Besides me being cheap, tight, and the pride thing..... I rarely take anything to a shop.
Before I do, What could I possiably be missing?
Think simple here. I often over think things and miss the obvious.

 

Interesting problems.... Can't really help much, but I'll stay tuned anyhow. Boat questions always intrigue me.

Definately wierd though....

-Joe

 

First question; Is your engine a reverse rotation engine and you are using a standard rotation starter? Second question; is the flywheel tooth count matched to the starter tooth count?

JMC

 

It's a standard rotation engine, as far as the tooth, I wondered that on the first couple of rebuilds at the first shop, even still wondered if the second shop had used the same gear as the first shop. But then I bought a standard replacement starter this last time and it's the same gear. So I'm going to say it's right, but I dont know how to check to make sure.
The fly wheel is about a 157 tooth, ended up with 157 or 158 (It's hard to count when laying upside down. haha) Since Pre-1981 302 engines and 351 engines both use 157T flywheel. Then I'll go with 157. But I don't know how to translate that into what the drive gear on the starter should be.


Here is my current game plan.... (I think.)
I am going to hit the few small burs on the fly wheel with a Dremel at low speed and fine stone. Then take the original starter that I've rebuilt all these times back one more time and have a drive put in it. I may take the boat and see about having them help install it if they will, they may know a trick to checking the alignment that I don't. I've always just slapped them in and if it ground, then added a shim, soon as it was smooth I used it, never had any trouble out of that before, til now. I am going to try to shim it out till the drive is just barely flush with the back of the fly wheel.
If it burns that drive up, then I will replace the fly wheel, then replace the drive again and try that.

BTW: I noticed today that there are shavings in the head of the starter and they don't appear to be off the starter gear.

 

can you take a pic of the starter and the mount area. maybe we will see something that is staring you in the face.

 

I already had pics of the starter where Brew was looking for it. The mount area was a little tougher but I got one decent one.





Bottum probably not important....





More to come......

 

This is probably the most helpful, notice how the drive is suspended 1/2 up.



Mount surface, the white spot on the fly wheel is just white paint where I marked my tooth to start counting.

 

Ohh one more, this is the latest victim.....



You can see how and where the fly wheel is hitting, I'm thinking maybe it is going to far, and when the engine starts it is not allowing it to return, so the gear is engaged pretty much the whole time even though teh abendix has released. Maybe... if I shim it out so it is close to flush with the back of the fly wheel, then maybe that will give it an extra second to release. I don't know, I'm really grasping at straws.

 

I would suggest replacing the ring gear, I think there is a damaged tooth grabing. This type of starter setup is real basic and should not give problems. once you can see how deep the starter sits then you can use shims if needed.

 

that style of starter has to be spun a certain rpm for bendix to go back in
50's tech
personlly I would try to fit a newer style starter on there
like from 92 pick up with the gear reduction
just a thought
mitch