Short and sweet, I need the times Ford says it takes to pull a cyl head off a 4.6l in a 1997 ford F150 4x4.


I will follow with my story as it may amuse some of you.

I have a 1997 F150 Club cab 4x4, auto, air, loaded ect ect.
I devolped a cel light and a code of 0304, (Cyl #4 misfire) At first it was intermint and it was a 05 not a 04 code but I digress.

Anyways after 2 days of me trying to figure out what was going on and no way to read info other than cheep code scanner I took it to my local Ford Dealer.
The date was Oct 3rd.

On 10-10-05 I contacted my dealer once again to see if there was any news on my truck. I was told that I had a mis fire on cyl #4 and a ghost misfire on #7. I interjected that I had seen the same ghost code on cyl #5.

I assume she passed me on to the tech who proceeded to inform me that after inspection he had found number 4 spark plug had "fell apart" and spark was going to ground causing the misfire. I told him to install new plugs and call me when it was ready to pick up.

Now we forward to 10-13-05, I still have not heard from dealer so once again I call. The lady in the service dept once again passes me to the tech. He then tells me that it was better but still had a misfire on #4. I asked how it was "better" No good answer and he changed the subject. Mind you I am at work and cannot devote 100% of my time into trying to diag my own truck at his place.
He then proceeds to tell me he needs to check into it as soon as he can free up some time. Maybe after work in the next day or so., and rushes off the phone.

10-17-05 I call back again!! Same women answers, passes off the phone.
Tech informs me thet I need an Injector that was the fault. He was going to order and install and call me when done.
10-18-05 I called back again at teh end of the day. Teck was gone service manager didnt know what to say and was clueless. Told me to call back next day.

10-19-05 Same woman, passes off to tech. (Tech) Hey bud I installed the injector truck ran great for 10 min then started missing again. The service manager said I could work on it tommorow. I should know more then. Call ended.

10-20-05 I called, once again same woman passed me off to tech.
(Tech) Well after thinking on it I believe its the injector drives sending to much voltage to the injector shorting the coil.
At this time I am quite perterbed. I interjected that I thought Ford supplyed all injectors from the same power source and triggered the ground. So Maybe he needed to inspect the injector harness instead of trying to sell me a ECM.

Dumb founded the tech said he would check into it some more. I asked about compression values. His reply was relative compression is fine no problems there. I dropped the subject.
He informed me HE personaly would call me back with results.

10-22-05 I went to dealer ship to talk with tech one on one eye to eye.
No one there except lady service manager who once again showed my just how smart she was by knowing nonthing of what her mechanics are doing and told me to call Monday.

10-24-05 Called again. Talked with tech straight way this time (prolly called ID)
He ask me what I wanted to do ?? I said huh ? (Tech) Have you decided what you want us to do ? Aftrer this a few times he became aware I had no idea what he was taking about. He said they didnt call you did they ?? Ha I laughed at him yeah right about what I asked ?
Well he said they decided ((after 21 days in the shop)) they would put a comp tester in teh hole and guess what no compression.

I got all upset and said well I thought you told me I had it before. His answer was I did tell you it was "relative compression" So I had to ask.. What is that exactly ? Well it is on teh computer system we you and so on and what not.
So I replyed in 21 days no one tested it for compression with a gauge ? Yep was his reply.
So with this news I suggested maybe a stuck valve, he agreed.
I asked him to perform a blow down test to see if it was intake or exhaust.
He said he was not the engine man and another will be looking at it now.
He was electronics and drivalilty issues.

Stunned at this I ask when can the engine man look at it. He said tommorow in the afternoon, I agreed and implied he call me with results asap so I can make up my mind as what to do. He agreed. Call ended.

See next post for the rest of the story

 

It gets better now ..............................

10-27-05
I called again Very upset and beligerent looking to take off some ones head because no one called me again for 3 freeking days.
Service manager was very unpleasent as well as she think I am upset.

YA THINK ?
No news as the mechanic had not worked on it. Again I went straight through the roof.
I was very nasty and I mean very nasty.
I ask just how she ran her shop ? Who works on what and how long do they get to work on it, because wher I come from when I pull in a customer unit I diag it, quote it, get ok, order parts and repair it when they get in. Keeping the customer informed at all steps.
She replys "Well its busy around here"
My Reply " Busy ? busy ? lady you dont know busy you are in a delaer ship relaxed doing nonthing I know you aint doing anything because you dont know whats going on in the first place. Where I work I check in, clean, repair and check out 20 to 30 pieces of rental equipment per day, and there are 5 of us doing this each. This is not counting customer work brought in by our field mechanics.

As I said I lost it.... Hung up on her cussed for about 2hr


10-28-05

I called back apoligzed and asked about my truck.
Now she knows all about it.
They pulled the head, I had a stuck intake valve and a warped and cracked exhaust manifold, parts and labor $2260.00
Crate engine (long block) + labor to install $4500.00

While choking on the numbers I told her I would get back to her as I needed to consult my wife. On my way home I realized what I missed. They pulled the head !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So after trying to call but they were closed and nearly going nuts tonight thinking about it I have tried to locate flat rate times to pull a cyl head so I can figure my own bill and tell em to shove it. Not to mention the fact I want to see the "sticking valve" and "cracked manifold" as now I am wondering if they are telling me the truth.


Sorry for the length and the typos I just had to vent to someone other than my poor wife who has had to endure me.

Thanks all,
Emonster

 

Sorry :o


I have no advice to give, but you have my pitty.


Maybe its time to buy a new truck.........Thats some serious cash for a truck thats almost 9 years old.

 

i was quoted $3000 to replace 1 head with a new one.

Sorry about your luck.

 

holy cow! I would be pissed too! sorry, i dont have a labor guide, but I could pull a head in a few hours, depending on how surgical I wanted to be. sorry that doesn't help much because it doesnt matter how fast I can do it, only what the labor guide quotes it for.

I wish you the best of luck

 

When you gave Ford your truck did you sign a form that gave them permission to fix whatever it was at whatever it would cost? My Ford dealer won't fix a thing until they know what it is and know what the price will be. They have always called with the problem and estimate. Normally they fix it if it's under $100 and call for permission above that.

I'd be knocking on the dealership managers or owners door if they did that work without permission. They wouldn't be getting paid. You better call Ford Headquarters customer service and talk to them with your problem. If they don't help you get an attorney. A consultation with an attorney is free.

 

It's the same here in Michigan but that is due to State laws on auto repairs. Wonder what the requirements are where Emonster lives?

 

I live in Ohio, However what I told them over the phone was to do a blow down test and call me with the result.
They pulled the head :/

Anyway I just got back from there today, The exhaust manifold is a bit warpped and both exhaust studs are broken and the intake valve face is slightly bent (not the stem) So on that best I can say is yes I need a new valve but I cant see where that can stick as I put it in a metal lathe and checked with a bit of persian blue. The Stem is not bent at all. I figured it would be a small amount but I was wrong.
So I think they are wrong, however I will buy a new valve and repair my own manifold and have them put it back together. I dont think its gonna fix it but I hope I am wrong.
I ran the vale through the guide all ranges ect ect and I felt nonting out of the ordnary. I know temp plays a part but I see no blueing of the stem at all anywhere on it. I cant see it sticking open.

I never signed any paper for anything. Most of it has been done over the phone.
So I dont think I have any recourse there (my fault) all I can do is whine like crazy.
They didnt want me to take my parts out this morn but I figured hey its mine I can do what I want and if they dont like it box up the parts and set the whole thing outside I will come and get it.

I really need to know flat rate times tho maybe even look at there guide because I know I am getting screwed big here.
The only time I have ever delt with a dealer is with my wifes van and its a Dodge. They have done me well in years past. This one tho is not fairing so well with me. Now I remember why I try and do it myself.

 

Sorry but I don't have access to the flat rate times either. Do you deal with any independent mechanics that might be able to provide it?
IIRC in Michigan the dealer has to tell you what it is going to cost up front and you sign it. If they don't know you can either agree to the inspection/trouble shooting charges or sign a waiver up to a certain amount. If the total is going to be over the ceiling amount you have to return (or fax) your signed acknowledgment of the new total.

 

HI!... If I were you I would get your truck out of there and do it yourself! Buy new valve $20, HEAD GASKET, FRONT TIMING COVER GASKETS $100, new TTY head bolts $60. Get a machine shop to look over the head and possible lap the valves $125. Go to junk yard and buy used exhaust manifold $25. Throw in another $100 for smaller stuff and your looking at about $450. Around here the dealers charger $98-$100 an hour for labour. That's why I do everything myself.

 

Keep in mind these are Ford's warranty times. Book time for independent shops is in parentheses. Ford time for replacing the right side head gasket is 8.2 (12.4) hours. Replacing the right side exhaust manifold is 1.2 (1.6) hours, and replacing the engine is 9.9 (15.0) hours. That's 19.3 hours Ford time, 29 hours Indy time. I'm an indy, and my labor rate is $75 p/h, which works out to $2175.

 

Thanks PKRWUD. I will assume thats where they got the dollar amount from as there labor rate is same maybe 65 p/h. But it gives me a good guess to argue with as the one fellow told me they could have it off in a couple of hours. I knew better than that.

As stated most of my dealings were verbal over the phone, and I just wanted an good idea of the flat rate times as I know they work flat rate.
BTW, forgot to mention the dealer is in Kentucky, I live in Ohio, not that it matters.

Thanks all .... I will try to follow up as soon as I have some news.

 

No prob.


At a dealership?!?!? They're $90 - $100 p/h out here.

 

Aside from trying to keep their greedy dealers in line, is there any logic to Ford's times? I can see where a dealer's people should have all the correct tools and training for a Ford vehicle but they are knocking off about one third of the independent's time. Would that make that much difference?
TIA

 

I was offered a job at the local Chevy dealership about 12 years ago, but instead started my own business. It was a difficult decision to make. At the dealership, I would have access to all the information I ever needed, which is the single most important tool you can ever have, not to mention full access to any parts I needed, including known good parts to toss at a problem when things got tough. But I didn't want to make a career out of working on the same dozen or so vehicles every day. I wanted more of a variety, both to keep it interesting, and to broaden my abilities.

Book time assumes that you've done the job before. The more times you've done it, the quicker your times become. A tech that changes head gaskets on F150's at least once a month can do it damn near blindfolded, whereas an indy tech may have never done it before, or if he has, probably not more than once. When the book time is determined, that is kept in mind to be fair. Think back to how much thinking was involved when you first learned to tie your own shoes, but now you can do it without even thinking. Same idea. It's also important to note that dealer labor rates are generally 30% higher than that of an indy.