Starter/Flywheel Noise?
 

Lately, my 2000 F150, 5.4L has exhibited a grinding noise upon attempting to start the truck. It almost appears as if the starter is not engaging. Sometimes, it won't start until the third or fourth attempt.

How do I diagnose the starter to see if it is the problem?



Jeff:(

Okay Jeff,

It sounds like the starter is milling against the flywheel. Basically, the pinion of the starter is not engaging but is still spinning and making the terrible noise.

This is generally a starter problem, but can be linked to a few other things as well. Quick checks are the battery and the two starter connections. A poor connection will not produce enough energy in the solenoid to engage the flywheel. This is a low possibility but easy to check.

The pinion of the starter is suppose to engage the flywheel before the armature/pinion begin to spin/crank. Issues that prevent this are pretty hard to determine from outside of the truck other than experiencing milling. Most likely issues are a milled down pinion that no longer has a chamfer to make engagement easier. There could be some corrosion issues around the plunger inside of the solenoid that actuates the lever to engage the pinion into the flywheel. You could also have some corrosion on the output shaft of the drive assembly. Most of these are not necessarily easy to fix.

Taking the starter off the truck is not too bad assuming you have the proper length extension for the ratchet. With the starter removed, you will be able to see the output shaft and the condition of the pinion as well as the ring gear. If the starter needs replaced, you are half way done with the problem. Looking externally and do not notice anything, you can energize the starter with a battery. Connecting only to the small terminal will make the pinion engage; connection only to the M terminal (the one with the strap) will make the pinion spin. By connection both the B+ terminal and the small one, it will engage and spin.

You can try to partially dissemble the starter which isn't very hard to do and put back together. There isn't any springs or other issues when taking it apart. Once apart you may notice some corrosion or something that you might be able to clean up. More than likely however, you will need to replace it.

This is something you do not want to let go for very long because it may end up running your ring gear if not already, which means alot more money. The starter does not randomly engage into the flywheel, there are predetermined locations. The flywheel always stops at or very near TDC of one of the cylinders. You could be trying to engage into a bad section, when it finally engages. Does it happen all the time, once in awhile or is this your first time?

My first starter did this once in awhile, but not 4 times in a row. It had a lot of corrosion issues and had to be replaced. Have anymore questions, let me know. Good luck.

Stormsearch:

Thanks for the reply. I bought the truck new in 2000. The grinding happened once at about 10,000 miles. Since then, it was grinding maybe twice a year. The truck has 90,000 miles on the engine now, and I notice the grinding happening more frequently; probably once a week. It may go several days without exhibiting any noise on start up.

I'll take your advice and check for corrosion. The battery was replaced at 85,000 miles (original battery). Then I will pull the starter and check. I'll check the teeth on the flywheel once the starter is pulled. Where is the ring gear?

Thanks,

Jeff

I would agree with you that 1/week is getting to be too much. A couple times a year can be expected. The ring gear is part of the flywheel assembly. You will only be able to see a small portion of it through the transmission bell housing.

Just thought that another possibility is a loose bolt on the starter motor. There is 3 of them for F150 so unlikely but possible. Good luck.

Stormsearch:

I removed the starter. No sign of corrosion. I had the starter tested at AutoZone. The pinion would not engage at all. The boys at AutoZone indicated that the voltage was weak.

With this being said, I bought a starter at NAPA which comes with a 3 year warranty for $145 with tax. I will see this week if the starter replacement was successful.

Thanks for your valued information.

Jeff

:bows:

Starter replacement was successful! No more grinding when starting. Thanks to all. This is a great forum.

Jeff

Hey OE812, Just curious if replacing your starter has fixed your starter/flywheel grinding? I am experiencing the same thing in my 2000 f150 w/5.4 and it has started to happen a little more frequently now. I was thinking of dropping the starter this weekend and looking at the starter gears and other things mentioned. Please let me know if this resolved this problem.
Thank You! Tom

Starter is grinding again. About every 4th attempt to start. I'll have to pull the starter this weekend and check to see if the pinion is engaging. My OEM starter was tested and the pinion was "weak"; would not engage.

Life is great!

Jeff

did you ecver figure out what teh problem was? I am having this problem too now.

Brett

Brett:

I replaced the OEM starter with a 2 year NAPA starter and it has been grinding about every 4th start since March. I kept putting off pulling the starter to have it tested. But this weekend, the starter will be pulled and tested.

I will also inspect the flywheel to make certain I didn't damage it with all of the grinding going on (no pun intended). Follow Stormsearch's suggestions to diagnose the problem. Break the issues down by component. I have never had an electrical problem with a NAPA replacement component in my 26 years of being a backyard mechanic, but I hope the starter is defective. They stand behind their products.

I'll let you know how the diagnosis goes this weekend.

Good luck with your problem solving.

jeff

It turned out to be the MF Flywheel!
 

Pulled the Napa replacement starter today due to more and more starter grinding noise when trying to start the engine. After removing the shroud at the bellhousing and turning the flywheel, I determined the noise to be coming from the damaged teeth on the flywheel.

My speculation is the OEM starter chewed up the teeth on the flywheel but only along an 8" section. It is bad enough to create the noise.

I've already gotten mechanic estimates of 6 hours of labor, $65 for the flywheel, plus cost of the rear main engine seal and tail shaft seal. Total cost around $500.

Has anyone ever changed the flywheel and if so, how difficult is it and which tools are needed?

Thanks,

jeff

alot of work
 

I have the 4.2v6 w/4r70w tranny

You're going to have to slide tranny back. That means drive shaft removal and possibly tranny cross member. Undo the bolts (2) after removing the four flywheel/converter nuts (and marking it for location on reassembly - a new ring gear...make a mark on the new ring gear with the same orientation as the old to avoid vibration problems). You are going to need a ft-lbs torque wrench/with socket to unbolt the flywheel so the tranny has to slide back around 4"(Do not pull on wiring harnesses!!!Remove if neccessay). Support the tranny with jack and piece of wood to spread the load on the pan. Support the motor likewise. Tranny will not like comming off motor easily (guide pins from Ford were not specially coated from factory, so they will seize. You can access the torque convertor bolts from the bottom left side through the inspection cover(it pry's out) and remove the starter). Match the new ring gear exactly to the old(the back of the old ring gear leaves the impression on the crankshaft with the locating mark. Use red locktite and torque the bolts half the max value the first round, and then go over them to the final value the second (gear/crankshaft). Match new mark to covertor mark (not sure if this is neccessay with new ring gear) and torque the 4 convertor nuts on with locktite as well (don't want these comming off).

Make sure convertor nose (into crank) has a little anti-seize, as well as the tranny/motor guide pins, and tranny/oil pan bolts. email for torque values if you don't have the Haynes manual. I'll look up any torque value you need. I would leave a whole Saturday for this job. Goodluck, you'll need a helper/gopher on this one. PS. If your rear main seal isn't leaking, don't worry about it if you'r trying to save money. But if the motor had alot of miles on it, now would be the time (money well spent in most cases and not more than 1/2 hours work while already changing ring gear).

menmytruck:

Thanks for the very detailed instructions. This is more than I bargained for. I sent my truck to a mechanic shop for this. He has all the mechanics tools and hydraulic lift to do this job. The thought of working on my back on this all-day project is too much.

Total cost will be around $550 with the rear main seal change. Maybe a few dollars more for the tailshaft seal if it is leaking. Bummer, but I don't have a choice but to crack the wallet.

Thanks again.

jeff

The reason it's only along an eight inch section might be because it's cracked. Sometimes the flexpates flex so much that they develop cracks between the holes in them, this causes misalignment.

http://www.bubbasracecarparts.com/Gifs/FlexPlate.jpg

Here's a pic of a cracked bolt pattern.

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/trans/trans_mistake_3.jpg

You might want to inspect the one that the mechanic removes. Either way, good luck with it.

I have 2000 that the starter went out in, and since we have put 3 starters in and it just keeps burning them right up. We just changed our ignition switch and put another starter on it and it again burned up the starter. the minute you start it the solenoid will not shut off and it ends up with a terrible grind (flywheel) and there goes the starter. Can anyone tell me what is wrong here?

Wow, there seems to be some serious problems with the 2000's and starters.

Mine has done the same thing.. been through 3 starters, and had the flexplate replaced once already due to worn teeth. I have the transmission off for a rebuild and upon checking the flexplate the teeth are worn again in a few places... So looks like there will be a new one going in before the tranny install.

As for bashfullfun, if your solenoid isn't shutting off it appears to be sticking. Have you tried manually jumping the terminals on the solenoid to bypass it and see if it works that way?

And if the starter is spinning without turning the motor then you prob have a bad flexplate too.

- Erik

Wow - old post revived. Earlier FoMoCo starters were not very well designed against corrosion. Forget when we put in sealed versions into the 4.6/5.4's but should have been around 2000/2001. Aftermarket starters are not well designed for this environment either if you go that route. Starter locations are not corrosion friendly. If you continue to get a starter to mill with several new starters it is possible there might be an alignment problem between the flywheel and starter. And this is not easily verified on a vehicle and really there is not a procedure to verify - so you might be sol.

The only other thing could be a weak battery - but I really doubt it since it sounds like a well used vehicle. If you wanted to try a few things here is what I would suggest (you already did the starter route so I won't go there unless you never bought an OEM starter - if you didn't, let me know what year and engine your truck is and make sure you purchase the latest starter motor for that design - a dealer could be holding back older stock - they are not suppose to but happens). You could try replacing/upgrading the wire size between the starter relay and the starter ignition terminal. Replacing the ignition start fuse (might be degraded).

Sounds like the main starter B+ circuit works since when it does engage everything works fine.

For the guy who's starter stays engaged (called starter run-on) after vehicle starts is very likely a starter issue also. There are several manufacturing defects that can cause this. Corrosion can be an issue also. If replacing starters does not solve the problem, then this could be a battery/starter B+ cable issue. In this case, the starter can engage the flywheel at full strength and create a spine lock with the flywheel. Normally the starter begins to spin/energize before this condition can occur. If there is not enough battery power to initially start cranking the flywheel then a spine lock can occur. The only way to break the spine lock is overdrive the starter and the flywheel will throw the pinion back into the starter. This naturally occurs anyway, but a spine lock condition will require a higher rpm and longer engine run to correctly operate. This doesn't really hurt the starter since there is an internal clutch that disengages the starter motor. What does happen is the starter will continue to draw current until the pinion is released. So after a really long period, it could burn up the starter. I wouldn't want an overspin condition to last more than 30 seconds often.

Edit: I should make a comment on aftermarket components. Alot of times the components are sold to aftermarket companies from OEM when said components do not meet testing requirements - but are deemed non-scrap value. Ford could have placed a large run of starters with a known problem and the aftermarket world didn't fix it correctly. Scrap starters are usually torn down by aftermarket and tempt to repair the problem. Most of the time it is corrected but sometimes not. Other aftermarket companies do make their own components but obviously do not meet all OEM requirements which are really strict to satisfy the customer diversity.

Thanks for the info Stormsearch :thumbsup:,

I'm pretty sure every time the starters been replaced on mine it's usually been with the cheapest one at the local Advance Auto, so since I'm replacing the flywheel while the trans is out, maybe ill switch to an OEM starter as well.

Would you know what the current part number is for the factory replacement starter on a 2000 with a 5.4?

Thanks in advance,

- Erik

Hey Erik,

Use service p/n 9L3Z-11002-A*

* is a wildcard and I show level B currently but level A is fine. Most of the changes done in recent years mainly has to do with water drain tubes affected by the Mustang usage.

Try ordering thru Tasca or Tylus and you should get a better price than your local unless they do the install. Also, they will be able to confirm the part number.

I just checked Tasca real quick and they show a different part number for the 05 - 07MY - Let me verify and get back to you.

Edit: The 9L3Z is the part number you want (it might be different number the dealer will provide but this one simply has a different type or number of drain tubes on it - nothing else different). This way, it will be the most recent design and built by Ford. Verified that it will drop right in. Good luck.

Thanks for your help Stormsearch. :bows:

I'll definitely be buying the new starter from Tasca as they have already helped me out with parts for my transmission.

Hopefully the new starter and flywheel will fix this problem for me permanently.

Thanks again,

- Erik

I'm resurrecting a VERY old thread here. I am working on my 2001 Lightning. I just reinstalled the engine after pulling it for a rebuild last fall. Anyway, nothing has been replaced and everything has gone back together the way it was taken apart. I have very meticulously inspected the flexplate for any signs of damage and found none. I am having the same issue that the rest of the members have been having, the only difference is that when i pulled the engine last fall, the starter NEVER milled the flexplate, but now that is it back in the truck, it will ONLY mill the flexplate. I have tested the battery (good), firewall mounted solenoid (good), starter mounted solenoid (good), the starter itself (good), and all the wiring going from the battery to and thru the FW solenoid, down to the Starter solenoid with no issues. Just to be safe, I even replaced the starter with a brand new unit from NAPA with no luck.

Last week I pulled the solenoid off the starter to manually engage the bendix to the flexplate just to be sure that they would actually mesh, and they will. I have been puzzled by this issue and am quickly running out of options.

I just got off the phone with a mechanic buddy of mine who said he ran across this same issue back in tech school on a Super Duty equipt with the 5.4L engine and the issue ended up being that apparently there is a specific torque sequence in which these starters are supposed to be bolted to the bellhousing in, and after that happened, his issue went away. Of course, he couldn't remember the sequence.

I have access to All Data and could find no information on any such a sequence in that program or around the web..... Does anybody happen to have any insight or possibly this "elusive sequence" they could pass along my way? This truck has been ready to fire now for over two weeks and I just can't do it and I'm tired of it being in my garage. Haha. Any and all help is GREATLY appreciated. Thank you.

--Ryan

Never heard of a torque sequence for the starter. And no where in the manual does it state that. I can't think of how sequencing the mounting bolts would have any affect on the starters engagement to the flywheel. It's either mounted or it's not.

No possible way the flexplate was bent during the engine work? Doesn't take much to bend them, especially if you leave the tranny in during the swap. Original flexplate? Your sure the wiring is correct at the starter including all grounds? Just trying to think of things here... Since none of this was an issue before, something has changed. I'm thinking if you manually engaged it just fine then something may be crossed with wiring at the solenoid or relay, something.. Not allowing the starter to fully engage or causing it to start spinning before it makes contact with the flywheel, which bumps it off.

I have done swaps on the 5.4, owned 3 of them and changed a few starters, never had to shim them or follow any torque sequence and with no issues. On 98, 99 and 00 vehicles. Something is faulty..

I agree, the ford starter either lines up or it dont. Never had to shim or torque sequence one unlike the earlier GM starters.

You might try having someone start the truck for you while you watch from below with the flywheel cover removed. Not only can you see the starter engage and disengage, but you will be able to see if your flexplate runs true. With the truck running the flexplate will wobble back and forth like a bent rim on your old bicycle if its bent and or cracked. Just sayin .........

The flexplate was removed as soon as the engine came out of the truck and I laid it on the ground to make sure it wasn't warped during my inspection of it. Plus, even if it was warped, then you'd think that there would be at least one spot on the flexplate where it would engage (b/c part of it would be closer than the rest). It is the original flexplate, and I have quadruple checked the starter wiring and it is correct. This is a time where I wish I had a speed camera at my disposal. I could video tape the starter kicking out and be able to watch frame by frame when the starter gear startes spinning. Looking at it with the naked eye just looks like it starts spinning as soon as it come out, b/c it happens so fast.

I had always thought it was a "bolts up or doesn't" thing too, but my buddy was telling me that there is the slightest amount of play when you set the starter into the bellhousing before your three bolts are tight. I'm not saying he's 100% right, just goin off what he says.
I have a remote start switch that I have been using so that I can lay underneath the truck and watch the action of the starter while bumping the truck. The starter kicks out and it spins, but it NEVER engages the flexplate, so there's no way to tell if it is turning true or not. Without the starter gear driving the flexplate, it will not spin. I would LOVE to be able to check for this issue and that would mean that the starter is engaging and turning the plate. :D

--Ryan

Have you rotated the engine by hand since it was re attached to the transmission? You could also measure the distance from the flywheel to the starting mounting surface, turn it by hand and measure again. How's your voltage at the battery? Test it under starting load also. Test at the solenoid...

Also, if you are seeing the starter gear spin because like you said, it happens so fast... that would indicate a problem since the starter should not engage until it makes contact with the flywheel. Anything before that would cause milling. Hate to say this also, but it's hard to trust a reman starter out of the box these days.

Man, you got a tough nut to crack! I wish you good luck and hope that when you find out what's going on that you share the solution with the rest of us.

Yes, I have rotated the engine by hand since its been on the trans. Battery voltage is 13V (I recharged it a coupla nights ago)

I hear ya on trustin a new starter.... I'm starting to think that maybe something IS indeed wired wrong. gonna undo all the wiring and start over from scratch. Wish I could do it today, but I'm bedridden with now with sickness.

Thanks for the well wishes. I'm SO anxious to get this massive ball of fun back on the road. the weather around here is gettin better by the day and I'm really jonesin'. Trust me, as SOON as I get it figured out, I'll be throwin it up here in big, bold letters. lol

--Ryan

Just a wild @ssed guess here but, do you think it's possible that the flexplate is on there backwards and maybe offset away from the starter gear????
I know you took the solenoid off the truck and tried it manually to make sure it meshed with the flexplate teeth but what if the solenoid does'nt push it out that far ?

Like I said just thinking out loud here cuz I'm stumbed big time. Good luck!

Good thoughts, but i've checked the flexplate positioning to make sure its not on backwards and...... its not. and when I pulled the bendix out manually, I didn't take it all the way out just in case, and it still meshed.

I don't think the torque converter would mount if it were backwards, thought about that for a second myself, as maybe the reason the starter gear was not reaching the flex plate. But don't think it would mount the other way. Also, the other way would put the flex plate teeth rubbing the back of the block I would think.

The last guy we helped with a similar starter issue after his swap ended up being an improperly located ground. If you could at all explain in detail how you have it wired or even better have a pic.. I could tell you whether it is right or not.

Get better man, I know the nasty is going around. Lot's of people on this side with chest and sinus colds.

I'll get a picture as soon as I can get out to the garage (hopefully tomorrow) and post it up here for ya.

--Ryan

Did you reinstall the spacer plate that goes between the trans and engine? .

yessir I did indeed.

It took an extra day but here's the pictures. I never thought i'd say this but PLEASE GOD let there by something hooked up wrong. :angel:

Attachment 26593
Attachment 26594
Attachment 26595
Attachment 26596
Attachment 26597
Attachment 26598

PLEASE HELP!!!! :lol:

--Ryan

Does Toyz or anybody else have any suggestions?

Man, everything looks good. All where it needs to be. There is one frame ground on the harness to the starter. Is that connected? Can't see it in your pics. Should be on the starter harness, part way down it splits off and grounds to the top of the frame just inside the fender area.

Is this the ground you're describing? If so, then yes, its on, and it was never removed when I pulled the engine.

Attachment 26599

So, if the solenoids are tripping, the starter is good, the flexplate is good, as well as the wiring. What's left? I'm starting to get that sinking feeling. :help:

This might be a dumb azz idea but that would'nt be anything new coming from me. What if you loosened the three bolts that hold the strarter in its place just a little bit so you could just allow it to move a hair and then try to start it? It might make up for a little bit of misalignment.

Dont know what else to suggest, I'm grasping at straws here. :confused:

I have actually thought of that and wanna try it, but i'm worried it might damage something. I remember back in high school, I was working on my truck and I didn't get all the starter bolts tight, and when I started the truck, it ended up breaking a ear off the starter.

Do you think there's a great chance of damaging something if I try this? say, if it catches the flexplate. That would be a GREAT deal of pressure put on the loose starter, ya know? and say it works, then what? tighten the starter back up and hope everything is fine?

I was thinking to loosen it just enough that it rocks side to side just a little. If it does engage then I'm thinking that the starter isnt machined to spec causing a misalignment. If it works like that you would have to try another starter I guess.
There's is a chance that you could damage something, how much of a chance I dont know but it looks like you are running out of options to try.
Do you know if that starter is a Ford or aftermarket starter?

Good luck.