The last couple of nights, when I went out to start my truck after work (it had been sitting outside in 8 degree weather for about 13 hours), I turned the key on and it didn't start. I have no problems after it is running, just occasionally I have trouble starting. The dome light in the truck went off when I turned the ket, but the dash lights stayed on and never flickered, so I don't think it's a bad battery connection. I left the key in the `on` position and bridged the solenoid, and it sparked like crazy, but it didn't even offer to turn the truck over. The first this happened, I put the truck in park and rocked it front to back, and then it started. Last night, I just held the key to it for about 30 seconds and the truck did nothing, and then it started all of a sudden. Any ideas on this, y'all?

 

I think you may have a bad starter or a dead spot on the flywheel but I don't believe the cold would effect it. We just went through minus 30 degree weather, Minus 45 with the windshield with no effect on most starters.
The cold is hard on the battery. You may loose half your power in the cold. Maybe the battery is a little weak.

 

Something that may help is next time it freezes up give it a whack with a bf hammer. If it then starts normally it's time for a starter.

I have used this tip in the past with mixed results. Something to do with with too much beer and too big a hammer.

 

There is a theory that the battery will warm up when current is drawn. It assumes the following...

A) The battery loses cranking amps as it gets colder.

B) Current draw warms up the battery so that it can produce more amps.

I turn my headlights on for 30 seconds before I crank the engine to warm the battery in the winter. I suppose the same can be said about turning the key for 30 seconds.

Or... It might all be foolishness...

Maybe faith starts the engine... LOL

 

I read that about turning the lights on the day before my issue started, so I tried that the first night. DIdn't make any difference, and my headlights didn't even go dim when I turnd the key all the way to crank the truck up.

 

Sounds like you could have a weak starter and something going on with the solenoid also like bad connections that could be cleaned. Maybe rocking the truck is turning the starter where the brushes make better contact.

I am also using synthetic oil and a filter with the anti-drainback valve.

Good luck!

 

Which should I replace first?
I looked at the solenoid and all of the connections that I could easily see, and they all looked ok (no rust or mud caked on them). Should I go ahead and replace the starter? My truck has 132,000 miles on it.

 

Personally I would start with the starter. If you could pull it and have it tested to make sure all the internal wiring is still good. Some of the windings inside may have shorted out or it could be brushes. I don't know if someone can rebuild it for you if it is bad or what a new one cost now-a-days.

 

Yeah, I'll definitely have the starter tested. Screw rebuilding it, I'll get a new one from Ford if it's bad.

 

OK, the lights are bright becasue they do not use the same circuit as the starter. The only ground going to the vehicle is the one that goes to the engine block and uses one of the starter bolts to complete the connection. The starter motor solenoid relay switch is on the firewall. Next time it won't start short the two connectors together. If the truck starts suspect the relay. If it doesn't start the problem is further down the circuit. The starter solenoid in on the starter. It engages the gear to turn the flywheel and closes a contact to power the starter. Before condemming the starter check the two red battery wires going to the starter for corrosion. If they look corroded they will most likely have to be replaced. If they are not run jumper wires from the positive battery to these contacts. The starter should run. If it does then the wires need to be cleaned or replaced. If not the starter needs to be replaced or tested and repaired.

Regards

Jean Marc Chartier


EDIT: I forgot if everything is Ok then the battery is not strong enough to power the starter.

 

Ok, I was wrong when I said that I bridged the solenoid, I must have meant the solenoid relay, because that's the one bhind the little black cover on the firewall, that's the one that I bridged over, and nothing happened. I will check out the starter like you said, thanks a bunch, y'all!

 

Just some followup...

If some of the starter windings shorted out it would make the starter pull more current.

More current might be hard on the solenoid and damage the contacts. More current might also weaken the battery.

Weak engine components cause intermittent problems that are a bitch to diagnose and make mechanics cuss.

When mechanics cuss, you can bet your bottom dollar that most everything in the engine bay will be replaced so have plenty of cash in your checking account...

 

First off, do not engage the starter for more than 30 seconds in this cold weather. The 5.4l will draw 250 cranking amps during ambient conditions and 350 amps at near 0 deg F. Visteon does cold crank testing and we have seen some older starters not make it to 2 minutes or less. This all assuming that the armature is spinning inside of the starter motor. If the armature is not spinning, while engaging the starter soleniod, then you are creating a shorted condition. Now we are talking about drawing near 800 amps during a shorted condition through the solenoid and through the armature to ground. You have about 30 seconds at best at ambient before an open circuit is created.

Also, never hit the starter motor with much force. We get a lot of starters back from the field where the permanent magnets inside of the motor are cracked/broken. Older style starter motors (say pre '88) in most Ford vehicles were field wound starters that contained no magnets to damage. All Ford North American starters have magnets in them except the 6.0 and 7.3l diesels, and the V10. Those have field wound motors.

Also keep in mind that the B+ terminal on the solenoid is hot, +12V all the time.

Here are some things to verify to help you troubleshoot. When you turn the key on, do you hear the pinion engaging into the flywheel? You should hear a distinct clunk when the pinion engages. When the ignition terminal of the solenoid is energized, it will pull the pinion into the ring gear and also close the contacts to pass current from the B+ terminal to the motor terminal of the solenoid. If this happens but the engine does not turn over, there can be a couple of issues: 1 - the battery is not strong enough to turn over the engine. 2 - the solenoid contacts are corroded. (somewhat common on F150's because there is no protection underneath from road splash). 3 - the armature in the motor has cracked/exploded opening up the motor circuit and not do anything. 4 - The ignition connection on the solenoid is okay if the pinion engages the flywheel. 5 - The b+ terminal on the solenoid is corroded to not pass current through the solenoid. Since you verified there isn't much crud on the terminals, these are probably okay. However, you will be cleaning these someday.

Another scenario - If you engage the ignition switch and the truck does nothing then check the following: 1 - check ignition terminal on starter for corrosion (same as above).

If anything else, then there is something wrong with the fender relay, ignition switch or other power connection other than to the starter.

Since the starter has continuous +12v at the B+ terminal of the starter solenoid, there are a couple things you can try. If you jump between the B+ terminal on the starter solenoid and ignition terminal (what we call the S terminal for start - smallest terminal on the solenoid), this will engage the pinion into your ring gear and crank your engine over. You can do this without keys in the ignition. The engine will simply crank over and not start with no harm done. If you jumper between the B+ terminal and the M terminal (the other large terminal on the solenoid with a silver strap attached) will pass power to the starter motor. This connection will energize the starter motor and make it free spin but will not engage the starter pinion to the flywheel. Just a note, you will create some sparks when making these jumpers because you are drawing a lot of current and energizing coils. If neither above jumpers do as described above, then you have a starter problem.

To help prevent corrosion on your battery or starer terminals, apply some anti-corrosion grease or what I use Vasoline to prevent corrosion. Should do this on clean connections. Very simple to do about 2 a year.

Just some more info - if you are missing any flywheel ring gear teeth, the starter will still operate and you should hear it spinning. I highly doubt this is the case, you would notice some slipping during cranking before it got this bad. We have tested ring gears well over 100,000 starter cranks and have held up well. If there is a short in the armature, the starter will still engage the flywheel and depending on the severity of the short, may or may not crank the engine. Shorts of this nature quickly opens up to an open circuit because of high current draw. You could potentially have a lifted bar on the commutator which ate away all of your brush life. These starters are pretty much gauranteed to make it for 30K engine starts. But with no brush life left, another open circuit condition would exist. However, the pinion of the starter motor will still engage the ring gear but not crank the engine. You will notice reduce cranking performance beforehand though.

A final comment during these cold temps on starter cranking and battery operation. The colder the temperature, the less resistance the starter circuit will become and draw more current naturally. A battery at colder temperatures will output less current (have higher internal resistance). While the battery warms up its internal resistance decreases and output more current. However, the overwhelming factor during cold temperates is the engine. It is drastically much harder to crank versus circuit resistance and battery state. Not only are the oils thicker, but all of the pistons and most other moving parts will have higher friction. When the engine warms up, the outer surfaces will expand to create a larger tolerance.

 

Oh Stormsearch, Im not worthy...

That is one hell of a good post! Thanks!

I have one question. Is there a fuse or circuit breaker to limit the current draw in the starter circuit? (besides the battery cable LOL)

 

Yes, there is an ignition fuse, rated around 40 - 60 amps depending on battery size. Initial solenoid draw (both pull-in and hold-in coils energized) will draw around 40 - 45 amps. Once the solenoid contacts are made, the pull-in coild drops out and only the hold-in coil is energized pulling in about 8 - 12 amps depending on temperature. Solenoid contact closure occurs within about 15 ms when the ignition terminal of the solenoid is energized.

As you stated there is no fuse between the battery and the B+ terminal of the starter motor. However, there are a handful of vehicles (worldwide) that uses sometype of B+ fuse between battery and starter.

Most of you probably haven't heard about the massive recall Honda had last year dealing with fires (forget vehicle model). They had alot of flooding in Japan and salt water entered the solenoid. Deposit tracks appeared creating a short between the B+ solenoid contact and ground. Once they were strong enough to carry enough high current, the starter caught fire. By next year, all Honda vehicles will have a fuse in the B+ cable.

Ford starters do not have this problem because it prevents any tracking between B+ and ground (path is broken by internal design ridge)