do you guys think this would be a good investment?http://www.hitch-buddy.com/

 

I saw this at SEMA. From 30 years of towing experience, here's what I think...

Removing tongue/pin weight from the truck also reduces the amount of rear wheel traction you have. It is likely to allow people to try to pull considerably more weight than their vehicle is rated for. and to some degree it is asking amatuers to do what a lot of professional truck drivers avoid - pull double bottoms (the hitch buddy seperates you from your trailer by an extra link).

And I think backing up would be a major problem.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Well I think because it weighs 1000 lbs and costs $6500, it negates any possible benefits it could bring to towing with an F150.

 

thanks guys, but I think you mis understood me. I was curious if you thought it would be a good investment for anyone not necesarrily me.

 

My comments would still apply - basically, if the truck is capable of pulling the trailer, pin weight isn't an issue.

I talked to the guy who designed it - he said the Air Force uses it to pull trailers that were crushing the pickups they were using... which means the trailers were too big for the trucks.

I can't imagine a scenario where this thing would make any sense.

 

OK,
Well I think because it weighs 1000 lbs and costs $6500, it negates any possible benefits it could bring to anyone towing with an F150.

Just don't see any pluses here....$6500!!!!

For that price, you could just spend the extra money and buy a Superduty and tow what you want.

 

I do not think most states that would even be legal. It would be a tandem trailer. Some states do not allow tandem towing and some only allow it if you have a positive connection to the frame such as gooseneck or fifth wheel hitches. In the few states that allow tandem trailers with a bumper/receiver hitch, it may work good?

 

My in-laws are looking at getting some sort of 3/4 ton 7 passenger SUV (Excursion or 2500 Suburban) to haul the family around on the weekends and to tow a large 5th wheeler to the desert a couple of times a year. This would likely be the only way they could do it. This doesn't make any sense if a truck can do, but if you have to have an SUV and tow a 5th wheel, then this is your only solution. For them, buying a 3/4 ton truck just for the occasional desert trip isn't worth it (he already has a work truck).

 

Why wouldn't they buy a bumper pull trailer to match their truck? Most fifth wheels will exceed the max trailer weight for an SUV anyway, so there's no advantage to adding another 1000# to the mix. The hitch buddy has brakes and while they claim improved braking, I'd be a skeptic - trailer pushes forward onto hitch buddy, transfering weight to truck... so now I am trying to stop a tandem trailer and an extra 1000#... I just don't see it.

Especially for the occasional tow... I wouldn't use one and I tow trailers 3 or more times every week!

 

Good question. Reason is they already have a 5th wheel toy box. They used to tow it with a 460ci F250, but it's on its way out and their minivan is going as well. Rather than buy two vehicles and pay for the registration/insurance, they would rather get an SUV. They may still just get a 3/4 ton truck, but this at least allows them to consider it. Buying another bumper pull trailer, then selling this one also results in more money spent.

Excursion is rated for 10,000lbs, 12,000 for the 2500 Suburban. Most of this is likely because the GVWR would be too high for the springs/axle, not necessarily the drivetrain. Nice thing is the hitch buddy does not put any additional tongue weight on the truck itself other than the hardware and the front half of the hitch (which is not enough to matter), so you may be able to tow a little more than the GCWR of your truck as long as it stays cool and you have enough brakes for the trailer.


If you have sufficient brakes, your trailer shouldn't be pushing on the truck very much. In addition, without all the weight on the truck, you're no longer transferring weight down onto the truck under braking. Even though a 5th wheel puts less weight on the rear axle than a tow behind, it still puts a larger share of its pin weight on the rear axle than the front. Under braking, this will cause the rear to squat more and not take advantage of the larger front brakes. The brakes are setup to work best with some front end dive.

I'm still a little skeptical as well. I think that some semis use something like this to haul two trailers, don't they?

In addition, it looks like it doesn't move independently from the tow vehicle...

http://www.hitch-buddy.com/5th_wheel_app.aspx

 

Towing more the the GCWR is still illegal and dangerous, no matter what extras are built into the system. Get in an accident and the lawyers will be in route quick. The advantage to the pin weight in the truck is that as you brake the weight transfer plants the entire truck harder on the pavement - that's one of the reasons that trucks can normally tow more fifth wheel than bumper.

If you look at the total load of say 6 adults (200# each?), a full tank of fuel, toys, clothing, food, etc... you can easily suck up 2000# of your capacity.

I still think that thing looks scary at best - semis pull double, but their towing dynamics and ours are totally different. I'd be really gun shy. For a couple trips a year, I'd have someone else bring their car and use a crew cab designed to pull that load - like someone said, for $6500 you have a lot of choices - like hire a limo to bring the rest of the gang out...

 

I agree that the cost is outrageous, and yeah, for that kind of dough, you could buy an SD to begin with....

But it does raise a couple good questions: The Tow Buddy itself does not appear to be a trailer, it appears to be a rigid extension of the truck itself, so I don't think it would be considered a tandem tow... but unless it was in writing from the manufacturer citing some info from the US DOT, the weighmaster of the municipality you were hauling through might still issue a driving award.

Also, there's the question of the weight.... If it weighs 1000 lbs, that's 1000 less that you can tow, but the pin weight becomes inconsequential, insofar as you don't overload the Tow Buddy. Being rated for a 4000 lb pin weight is great, but that would make a *properly loaded* 5th wheel with 20% on the pin roughly 20,000 lbs, which IIRC is right near the upper limit of an F-350's capability.

In all honesty, from the truck's standpoint, that's almost an ideal tow, isn't it? All tow, no (or minimal) tongue weight on the truck itself, although it's all on the 'added axle', so it's technically still a part of the truck.... Neat concept IMO... If I had a 5er or gooseneck, and a big family, I might think real hard about it....

 

Probably illegal. Dangerous? No more than an F350 towing the same weight. The Excursion/Suburban 2500 use the same drivetrain, just have heavier suspension components and brakes to handle the higher GVWR. Since this doesn't put any real weight onto the tow vehicle, these aren't as big a problem anymore and you're really just looking at the drivetrain's capability to pull it.

Not necessarily an advantage. That additional weight taxes the truck's braking system more and compresses the suspension. In the rear, this is fine because of the rigid axle (static camber curve under compression) but in the front, unless it's a 4wd with a solid axle up front as well, the suspension gains negative camber under compression, putting less contact surface on the road. In addition, this additional weight under braking is multiplied by the force and taxes the vehicle's components more. Remember, the trailer's brakes are responsible for stopping what is on the trailer's axles, but since the tongue/pin weight is born by the vehicle, it is now the tow vehicle's responsibility to stop the weight. In addition, since the hitch buddy gives you another braking axle, you've got more brakes stopping the same load. Personally, I would rather have 6 axles (1 on the hitch buddy, 3 on the trailer, 2 on the vehicle) worth of braking to stop the load than 5, you?

Nope. Most of the fuel (for the toys), toys, clothing, etc goes in one of the trailers. Since we all generally leave at different times and have multiple buggies and other dirt toys to haul, there are more than enough vehicles to spread the people/stuff out in. I usually tow the heaviest buggy and all the firewood with my F150 and open trailer and most of the lighter stuff goes in the toy box to spread the weight around.

Not really pulling double. It's an attached part of the vehicle.

You're not reading the post correctly. The truck is used to haul the stuff (not people, as previously mentioned) out a couple of trips a year. The Minivan is used for hauling 5-8 people around once a week. The Suburban 2500/Excursion would be used as a minivan 52+ times a year, and a truck 1-4 times a year. Why would you spend another $20-50k on a vehicle used 1-4 times a year and also buy a $20-35k minivan to save $6500? We're not asking that thing to tow 40k lbs or anything, more like 10k, which is about the max rating for the Excursion and under the rating for the Suburban.

If they were towing this thing once a week or month, then it would make sense to have both vehicles. As it sits, they currently have an F250 that sits and collects dust, maintenence, insurance and registration payments all year long and a minivan that is used all the time. Both vehicles are tired and they would like to get something that does both.

So far, your suggestions were: just buy a tow behind now, just buy an F250/350, rent a limo to haul everyone out (using a limo 52+ times a year gets a little pricey) and just get a car to haul everyone to save $6500. Hey man, you seem rich, mind kicking me down a couple of bucks?

 

The weight from the pin "plants" the truck more firmly on the ground. Try pulling a trailer with a light tongue - stopping tends to get very exciting because the tail of the truck gets light. That's why trailers pull best with specific tongue/pin weights. Unloading the truck will make the trucks brakes less effective due to lower tire traction. And towing beyond the GVWR IS illegal and the manufacturers rate them for a bunch of reasons - axle capaciticies and brakes are only part of the reason - making going over the limit possibly very dangerous. I've towed a fullsize truck in an enclosed trailer with my F150 - the 5.4 even with a tuner is not up to that task in any hills. I've pulled similar loads with Suburbans and Excursions - unless you are talking diesels, even the V10 lacks the necessary power.

My suggestions amount to something simple - find a better solution than trying to tow outside the design parameters of the vehicle. Sometimes the real answer is not about can it do it, but rather is it wise to do it.

Another possibility would be a good used F350 regular cab (they come pretty cheap by comparison) and a new minivan - you said yourself that you have plenty of vehicles to haul everything but the trailer.

I just see too many dangerous things on the road - and when you cover 100,000 miles plus a year, you want to see everyone safe.

Still think it's a bad idea, but hey if you buy one, let us know how it works.

Oops, was going to also say that I would check with the local law about whether they think it's towing double - I don't know that I would want to find out after the cash is on the table. And get their decision in writing - locals often differ in their interprataion of the law.

 

Once again, suspension geometry comes into play. Diving or squatting under braking is not a good thing. You want to use all tires as equally as possible for maximum braking. Planting all of the weight off the trailer's axles onto the truck's is dangerous and unstable. This is why a car/truck with firmer spring rates will stop faster.

In addition, you're using monkey logic regarding tongue weight. Trailers tow best with a specific tongue weight because you want the polar moment of the trailer ahead of the axles, not behind it. If you have the polar moment behind the axles, it sways all over the place because of the hinge in between the trailer and tow vehicle. Under hard braking, all trailers transfer weight to the front, unless it's ridiculously loaded. If your trailer is not level, then that will lift the rear of the truck under braking even if 100% of the weight was on the tongue.

Either way, 6 axles is still better than 5. You're also confusing items here. The trailer will still have proper pin weight and loading, this just won't be on the truck, it will be on the tow buddy. What's the problem with this? The thing has it's own brakes. As long as it's built sturdy enough, there won't be problems.

Sure, exceeding these ratings can be bad, and it's illegal. Tell me this though: what's the difference between an F250 and an F350?

Diesel is exactly what I'm talking about. A 5.4L Excursion is worthless.

How is this outside the design parameters of the vehicle? We would be within the GCWR (which it should be, maybe a couple of hundred pounds over, nothing to sweat over) and definitely under for GVWR. I don't think it says you can't tow with a hitch-buddy anywhere, does it?

So, can you find an F350 diesel for under $6500 that you would trust to tow a 5'er reliably? You yourself said the V10 lacks necessary power, so why would I want to overtax the engine because you deduced that something is unsafe with sketchy logic?

Yep, so do I. I've seen a Saturn SL towing a National Lampoon's style station wagon on an open 2 axle car hauler. This doesn't look unsafe.

I'm pretty sure it's legal in CA.