this is an exerpt from another post about the need for svt tech certification, I posted this big long-winded reply and then realized that it wasn't really what that thread was about, but was in response to something that Sal brought up in that thread. I thought it might be of interest to people who might not look at it in that particular thread.

maybe it's just late at night and I'm sleep deprived again, if so please ignore

also in advance let me say that I am in no way attacking ANYBODY including Sal, I'm just trying to have a friendly discussion about this topic that most all of us have deal with.

I certainly don't need the PSP mod-squad after me I don't even have my L any more to attempt a getaway!

To mod or not to mod, what should warranty cover, that is the question.

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Original post:

quote from Sal: "What Ford needs to do is educate SVT techs to go the extra mile for SVT customers"

absolutely correct, and service writers too...

quote from sal: "and to understand how aftermarket parts can and can't damage a vehicle"

just to play devil's advocate on this one, which aftermarket parts exactly are guaranteed NOT to damage a vehicle?

or better yet, where should Ford draw the line on mods?

what reason do they have to even bother trying to differentiate good versus bad mods? is it in their interest at all? why not just have a ZERO TOLERANCE mod policy?

for example a one chip might be safe while another chip COULD be tuned too lean or with too much spark advance and cause detonation right?

or a pulley (lets take a generally considered "SAFE" 4lb'er) someone could bolt this one without the proper chip and possibly cause damage due to incorrect air fuel ratios under boost right?

how about the simple 90mm air meter mod, this should certainly be safe right, heck it's a Ford part afterall, but if it doesn't have the properly tuned chip could it not also cause a lean condition?

same with oil breather caps, air filters, etc.

also, maybe the question isn't what parts will cause "damage", but what parts will create a "warranty concern".

For example, I have a customer here in town that ownes a 2000 model L, we installed a 90mm Ford meter and and air intake kit and an (to remain un-named) chip.

well the vehicle immediately began setting lean codes.

All possible sources for lean condition were then checked, no vacuum leaks, fuel pressure ok, fuel injector pulsewidth and relative flow ok, MAF voltage and baro reading ok, hegos switching, but fuel trims are still maxed out, the pcm is dumping in extra fuel to compensate for this lean condition???

The cold air intake kit air was then removed, problem remained.

The MAF was replaced (twice) with two other known good parts one from my own '01 truck, and another one brand new from the box.

problem persists.

Chip was sent back for reburn.

problem persisits.

Chip was replaced with new.

problem STILL there.

replace customers factory 80mm maf, reinstall chip and air intake, truck runs fine and fuel trims return to normal and no more check engine light?

How much exactly is Ford supposed to pay me in warranty time to figure out what the problem was between all of these modified or aftermarket parts.

Ford didn't put ANY of these parts onto the truck in the first place, why should they pay to diagnosis the problem and fix it?

I certainly didn't call ford and tell them to VOID this customer's warranty, but at the same time the warranty just will not cover the time involved in this repair.

But still alot of people on here would get mad about there truck's warranty being "voided".

In this case, the customer is a really good guy, and I just did the work for free, partly because I had personally recommended which parts he should get to enhance the performance of his truck. These parts were all from the same tuner, one of the popular "big 3". So now I felt some obligation to get his truck running properly again. The tuner tried to help with new parts, but after that didn't work, they just said they didn't know what to do?

I'm definately NOT saying that ford should void there warranty for modifying their truck, but should ford have to pay to fix things that they didn't do wrong?

another example: a customer last month that I installed a KB supercharger on his 2000 Harley truck, what happens when heaven forbid his intake gaskets leak or plugs develop a missfire or something like that. Does ford still pay for this repair even though, now it may take an additional 3 hours of labor due to the aftermarket parts? even if said aftermarket parts didn't necessarily cause the actual failed warrantiable part to go bad?

I mean there is a normal diagnostic procedure with an approved amount of diagnostic labor time (probably only a couple of tenths these days ) that labor time does not take into account all of the variables presented by all of the modifications that are available.

I try to be very "mod friendly", but sometimes, it's not worth it to try to be a "good guy" and help a fellow L owner out. I end up loosing my *** on a job that Ford can't be charged for, and the customer doesn't feel that he/she should have to pay for because he/she was told that their mods won't or can't void his warranty by his tuner or even worse the "Moss/Magnussen act" or some crap like that.

sorry to go off on a tangent, and again, I'm not aiming anything at you sal, I'm just trying to illustrate BOTH sides of this warranty coin.

I might also add, that aside of my love of Ford performance cars and trucks, and the fact that I have devoted my career (and thus a major chunk of my life) to this profession, I don't have any blind devotion to Ford motor company in general. Especially when it comes to their warranty practices and labor allowances. they suck!

They screw techs out of labor time every chance they get. In alot of cases, this is passed on to you the customer, because lots of techs then turn around and stick it the the out of warranty paying customers to make up for the time. so I'm not taking their side by any means, I'm just presenting another side of the story.

later,
chris

 

Some very interesting and valid points you made, but it leaves me with one question............................
you wanta work on my truck for free? J/K

 

My Theroy is, why should the Dealer Mechanic's care if we have Mod's that are the possible cause of a problem. Lets face it, the more problems we have, the more work they have. The more work they have the more money they MIGHT or SHOULD make.
Big Brother FORD is not sitting there making the decision if something on my truck voided the Wrrnty. The mechanic's stand point should be, ---> "Who Cares", it's broken, I get paid to fix it.
They simply tell Ford it broke because of BLA BLA BLA, get an approval, fix it, and get paid. Schit if they have to (and I'm sure they do) Do like ALL OUR DOC'S DO, and Bill Ford out for more time and parts than they actually fix and repair. They are car, truck, and L owners themselves. It's no sweat-off-their-*** if they tell the truth or not. (oh ya they're not suppose to lie right)
I'm waaaaaaaaay more concerned on them knowing what the hell there doing to tell you the truth. And quite frankly I don't think 1/2 of them know enough about a SVT to decide if I just voided my Wrrnty on a truck that will cost me dam near $40,000.00 after the 5 or 6 year pay off.

Just my opinion.

 

Just my $.02. Ford builds the vehicle to certain specifications. They warranty the vehicle at these specs. "Joe Owner" reads the message boards and the mod bug bites him. Some where along the line something goes wrong and Joe's motor breaks. Can someone PLEASE tell me why it is FORD'S responsibility to fix for free, Joe's obviously modified motor? Joe bought the vehicle knowing it's performance. If it's not enough, buy something else. If he's gonna mod, he should be expected to pay should something go wrong. With all of the money some of the "Joes" put into their vehicles, why can't they pay the cost of repair. They want to play and tinker at Ford's expense. I don't get it. It's really pretty simple. If you mod, be prepared to pay if something goes wrong. If you're worried about warranty issues, don't mod.

 

alot of people have this view, unfortunately this isn't reality, let me explain why it doesn't work like that.

1. the mechanic shouldn't care because it's more work and more money.

I haven't me a mechanic yet that enjoyed doing warranty work. Ford pays us in tenths which are 6 minutes intervals. Warranty time pays jack squat while the tech could be doing the same customer pay job for twice the time.

2. who cares, it's broken I get paid to fix it

True, but again, it's warranty time, if It takes 10 minutes get the paperwork and find the vehicle on the lot and bring it in, 30 minutes to diagnose it, 15 minutes waiting in the parts department for the part, and 30 minutes to put the part on, lets say an EXTRA 25 minutes to diagnose or work AROUND the customer's modifications, then the tech isn't exactly elated when ford decides to pay them 7 tenths (42minutes) or one hour or something like that for the entire repair, what is the incentive for the tech? we HAVE TO do warranty work, we DO NOT HAVE TO do warranty work AROUND your mods.

3. (this one is my favorite) tell ford BLA BLA BLA, get an approval, fix it. and if they have to and I'm sure they do, get paid like the doctors do, bill out more parts than you actually use.

The problem here is that sure we can tell ford whatever, but every single part that I replace I have to put the old part back into the original box and take it back to the parts department and have signed off that I am turning in an old part. Then the warranty clerk that pays me checks to see that every part that I said I put on the vehicle was billed out on the ticket and then signed off for by the parts department. THEN, as ford sees fit, they call and have these parts sent back to them for inspection! How do you think it'd go over if Ford started opening boxes of brand new parts? BTW, if say I just get the parts guys to sign off the ticket and don't actually turn a part in, and ford calls for the part, and we don't produce it, then the entire repair PARTS and LABOR gets billed back to the dealership at which point the PARTS and SERVICE managers proceed to chew my ***.

As for the doctors, don't even compare, first of all, they make ALOT more money than I do, second of all if a doctor doesn't correct your concern on the first visit, you go back a second or third time and pay him again on each visit. If I don't correct your concern, you go to the manager and the owner and write a letter to ford telling them that I am Gomer and Cooter and that I don't know your tailpipe from a hole in the ground

so yeah, it's no sweat off of my back if I tell ford the truth or not, like I said, I'm no big fan of their warranty allowances so I'm not going to go out of my way to help them void a customers warranty, but at the same time, I'm not going to go out of my way to do extra warranty work, especially warranty work that requires a bunch of extra time (due to mods) but still pays the same crappy "stock vehicle" warranty time.

understand what I'm trying to say?

sorry so long.

later,
chris

 

Having spent the last two days trying to diagnose a
mis-fire in my truck, I can only thank the mechanics that
think like you do, Chris. Most people don't realize just
how little the "diag" mode nets the mechanic. I think
most of them are set at .2 (12mins?) and I know I
couldn't start to look for something that quickly.

Bottom line? If you find a great shop or mechanic,
show some appreciation ... Go buy a pizza lunch
for them, or something. They deserve it !

Cliff

 

What Irks me is when the Dealership techs don't know what an intercooler is. Or when in their all fired hurry to do a 30 min job in 20 min they do this to an after market pulley


This was for a head gasket leak the 2nd time around which if they had read the Ford materials should have meant a new motor. Instead they screwed up 2 pulleys... They could have called me and said "Doug you have all these after market parts on here and we need 2 hours labor to get the pulley off so we can change the timing covers.." NO instead they destroy $700+ worth of parts... I would have happily paid them for their labor....

Then they proceed to tell me that my truck is cursed and no one wants to work on it... BUT for $XXXXX cash on the side they will see if someone wants to reinstall the aftermarket pulley that is arriving tomorrow.

Lets see, on the clock you couldn't remove a pulley to save your life, but you want me to pay $XXXX to screwup the cursed truck further after hours ? What do you think I am an idiot ?

I have the dealer do stuff at their rates because I expect a HIGHER standard of workmanship. They know these vehicles they work on them everyday. If I wanted a hack to work on my truck all I have to do is change my clothes and slide under there myself....

SVT Vehicles are what brings people in the door to buy Tauruses and escorts. Yep we are a evil bunch who decide that they might be able to improve on Fords original design. But we are not without common sense. If my changes cost you money tell me about them BEFORE you destroy my truck... AND don't void the window switch warranty because I put after market wheels on...

The reason they should put up with aftermarket performance parts is because the aftermarket capabilities sell the vehicles... Trucks are the most modified vehicles on the planet...

Whew... I'm Done ... The Soapbox is open for the next person...

Doug

 

Does anyone have a copy of the mossy-magnusion (sp) act? that should explain it all

 

Boy, Doug must be mad........he posted twice

 

man doug, you must be wound up, you did a double post

but I really don't understand and/or agree with this logic:
quote: "The reason they should put up with aftermarket performance parts is because the aftermaket capabiliities sell the vehicles... Trucks are the most modified vehicles on the planet..."

what are aftermarket capabilities? and how do they sell vehicles? nobody buys a 4x4 F-150 because they need a lift kit, they buy it because they need a truck.

nobody buys a Lightning because they want a blower pulley etc.

But seriously, you appear to have a VERY legitimate complaint on your hands. I agree that people come to the dealer ship expecting to pay more (even though sometimes they don't pay more) but expecting to get top quality service from factory trained techs. I also know that unfortunately, an empty shop doesn't make any money, so when the owner walks through and doesn't see a shop full of highly trained top quality techs, but a bunch of empty bays, he goes to the service manager and orders him to place an advertisement and fill up those empty stalls so he/she can make more money. Unfortunately, there is a SHORTAGE of truely skilled and qualified technicians to fill that void. So in MANY cases you go to the dealership and still get the jiffy-lubers and pep boys/firestone mek-a-neks working on your premium vehicle. I'm not saying it's right, but thats just the real world. I cringe at some of the things I have seen other techs do to customer's cars. All I can do is try to take care of MY customers and do MY job to the best of my ability.

So in that light, I am in disbelief that the dealership did that to your truck, but also not surprised. They should have contacted you first at the very least, and you also should have been getting a new motor, not another gasket. BTW, are you certain that they even replaced the head gasket the first time around?

and as for svt4rd's comment: "Does anyone have a copy of the mossy-magnusion (sp) act? that should explain it all"

jeez man did you even read my post? THAT is EXACTLY what I am talking about. I am not talking about literally VOIDING a warranty, but I am talking about how modifications completely changing the time (and therfore the cost$) of repairing anything on your truck. who pays that cost?

let me restate my example AGAIN. if my 2000 (non s/c) harley customer with his new KB blower now gets a check engine light and has a missfire on cylinder #4 for example. well lets say that this is caused by a faulty coil ok. So now that we have diagnosed the problem what do we do about the fact that it now takes 3 hours to replace that coil because we first have to remove the customers aftermarket supercharger assembly? who pays that? should ford pay the extra time? NO. should the technician put the coil on for the same crappy labor time (18minutes or so) that it would pay to do the next truck in line that IS NOT modified?? NO.

there is more to the picture than the worst case scenario of a Voided Warranty and the stupid Moss Magnussen act which you can't even spell, much less know what it says, but people insist on throwing around as a reason to feel completely responsibility free for whatever they do to blow up their truck!

 

There is a thread going about voided warranty's on the svt performance forums too... Seems a guy got his warranty voided after he took his vehicle in and the dealer searched the lightning forums and saw he had a chip listed as a mod in his SIG file along with his name and 1/4 mile times etc... they printed them and used it against him... This was in San Francisco.

 

LOL, I just responded to this on the other thread, but this is a good related thread too, and can definitely open peoples eyes to how the dealer works.

First, here's what I wrote in the other thread:

"Chris, you are absolutely right. I was just speaking in general. It's a gray area for sure. What I really meant was for techs AND service writers to be taught to at least have the common sense to look into IF a problem is caused by an aftermarket part. It'd not fair to the customer when they bring their truck in for the slightest problem, and the tech opens the hood and sees an air filter, and immediately blames whatever is wrong on aftermarket parts. And this goes for FORD also. Are you listening? Stop blaming every damn warranty claim on aftermarket parts! It's disgusting that Ford pawns off 90% of it's warranty responsibility on aftermarket parts, without even ever seeing the truck."

Now, to elaborate more on this topic..

Being a Ford dealer tech myself, I sympathise with Chris, and I know exactly how things work.

On one hand, you have the customers point of view:

"You can't blame my aftermarket parts unless you can prove they caused the failure."

This is true, but who pays to "prove" it? There is no reason the dealer should spend extra time and money to prove or disprove aftermarket parts caused a failure. The dealer is there to warranty FORD parts and warranty problems related to factory ford parts. When a dealership has to work on a vehicle that's got non-Ford parts on it and the problem is related to those parts, that's customer paid labor, not warranty.

Now, on the other hand, you have the dealers point of view:

"Why should I waste my time and money trying to prove if aftermarket parts caused the failure?"

Well, in all honesty, if the parts DIDN'T cause the failure, and the customer gets denied warrenty work, or the dealer won't even touch his truck because of the parts, then the customer is getting the short end of the stick. It's similar to our judicial system. Innocent until proven guilty. There is no reason that a vehicle repair should be denied or refused, simply because the parts are on the truck.

Both sides have valid points, and both sides really shouldn't have to "pay" to prove the aftermarlet parts did or did not cause the failure. So what's the solution? I really don't know. Maybe Ford can modify their warrany policy to allow 1 hour of labor time to determine if an aftermarket part is the causal failure part, on SVT only vehicles. And going along with that policy, the customer must pay for that hours labor if it IS determined that the aftermarket part is the causal part. Just an idea.

 

Doug - While I agree with that 100%, and would do the same thing if they asked me. You have to remember most people out there are all about what they can get for free or save money on. Seriously, how many people that have mods on the vehicle would tell service techs that? And even if you told them who's to say they're not going to try and take advantage of you if that opportunity is offered up? Always remember, just because you'd be willing to go that extra step to show your appreciation or be fair, there are far more many people out that that would do the opposite.


superfords - thanks for that post!

 

I have Carefully crafted a relationship with my service writer. He knows that I stopped taking the mods off a long time ago.. He also knows that I am making modest changes that have been heavily researched and that work well together. The nightmare above STILL occurred - TWICE

Just like the next guy - I want as much free stuff as I can get - BUT the way warranty work is preformed according the the descriptions here it isn't worth much more than free... In other words we are in many cases getting what we paid for. Ford is supplying the parts and the dealership is bidding the work to the lowest bidder and doing everything they can to get that low bidder to do the work as cheaply as possible.

It is too bad that there isn't a way to register to be able to install warranty parts yourself. I could have easily installed the leaking shock myself and the intercooler for hat matter. And when I was done the only parts that didn't get back on the truck would be any I lost in the truck by dropping them.. Since I dont have access to the largest parts dept in the southwest like my dealer tech does I have an excuse for not putting nuts and bolts back on....

This is not meant to be a slap in the face to the decent techs out there.. And I bet Siperfords and the others out there are good. it is just to highlight some glaring examples of **** POOR customer service. Thats what it comes down to is the value of the customer to the delaership and to Ford.

Doug

 

No, but I think I may have a copy of the "milk-of-magnesia" act around here somewhere

just kidding dude, don't take it personally and I'm sorry if I was snappy up above, but that is exactly what I was talking about.


also:

thank you cliff for you viewpoint and your kind words, they are truely appreciated. and may I say that you should get a pulitzer for authoring that sig or yours (j/k)

Now what I need everybody to do is, call me at 273-1582 and set up dates when you can each take me to lunch

just kidding.

but maybe the guy that did that carnage to Doug's truck should call and take Doug to lunch (or maybe even dinner and a movie) with flowers to appologize!

later,
chris