Drivetrain Vibration ~ '97 Expedition 4x4
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From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
Drivetrain Vibration ~ '97 Expedition 4x4
I have a '97 Expedition XLT 4x4 5.4L 35K that developed a driveline type vibration between 40 & 50 MPH after the installation of a 4" Trailmaster lift. The installer has never encountered the problem and won't help! Trailmaster says the front driveline is probably turning and shouldn't be. They also say that the transfer case can be adjusted to eliminate the turning. Ford says the front driveline turning is normal and they won't touch the transfer case! Help...anyone with similiar experience?
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From: MO, USA
What does a lift kit have to do with the driveline turning. I don't understand why they would say that. Also, define driveline. The front axles turn all the time. I'm not sure where the disconnect is but I will check it out tomorrow. I'm pretty sure the driveshaft does not normally turn.
Did you put new tires on after the lift?
The installer won't help! I wouldn't settle for that. You probably paid good money for them to wrench on the truck and if that is all that was done, I would expect them to at least try and help.
Good luck.
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'97 F150 Lariat, Flareside, white/sliver, SC, ORP, 5.4 (FQR), Mods: 305/70/16 GY ATS, AR Baja wheels, dual exhaust, Smittybilt Nerf Bars, Edelbrock IAS Shocks, K&N Filter, Carbon Fiber Bug Gaurd and rigged the fog lights too.
Did you put new tires on after the lift?
The installer won't help! I wouldn't settle for that. You probably paid good money for them to wrench on the truck and if that is all that was done, I would expect them to at least try and help.
Good luck.
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'97 F150 Lariat, Flareside, white/sliver, SC, ORP, 5.4 (FQR), Mods: 305/70/16 GY ATS, AR Baja wheels, dual exhaust, Smittybilt Nerf Bars, Edelbrock IAS Shocks, K&N Filter, Carbon Fiber Bug Gaurd and rigged the fog lights too.
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From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
Thanks for the feedback...here is a little more info...
The Driveline I am referring to is the drive shaft beteen the transfer case and front differential. I checked to see if the drive shaft is turning at slow speeds and it is...forward & reverse.
Trailmaster tech says the clutches in the transfer case are engaging due to the increased driveline angle forcing the driveshaft to turn. They say it's a simple computer adjustment to the torque bias but Ford says it can't be done? In addition, most dealers won't even consider warranty work on a lifted truck...even though they sell "new" lifted trucks
As far as tires go I have 315-75-16's on positive offset 8" rims...but the vibration was present with the stock tires right after the lift was installed!
I think I will pursue Trailmaster and the installer for more help...but it sucks not having your only truck for days on end!
Regards,
Erik
The Driveline I am referring to is the drive shaft beteen the transfer case and front differential. I checked to see if the drive shaft is turning at slow speeds and it is...forward & reverse.
Trailmaster tech says the clutches in the transfer case are engaging due to the increased driveline angle forcing the driveshaft to turn. They say it's a simple computer adjustment to the torque bias but Ford says it can't be done? In addition, most dealers won't even consider warranty work on a lifted truck...even though they sell "new" lifted trucks
As far as tires go I have 315-75-16's on positive offset 8" rims...but the vibration was present with the stock tires right after the lift was installed!
I think I will pursue Trailmaster and the installer for more help...but it sucks not having your only truck for days on end!
Regards,
Erik
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Minneapolis, Mn
You have 2 likely areas to have checked. U-Joint angles and the other is not having the driveshaft yoke engaging the transfercase tailshaft sufficiently after the lift. This is assuming nothing was damaged during the installation.
If it's the yoke not engaged sufficiently, you are going to have to have the drive shaft lengthened. If it's U-Joint angle (the U_Joints at both ends of the drive shaft have to be within a certain number of degrees in operation or vibration & premature wear will occur), then either shims need to be added (if on leaf springs) or the mounts need to be torched off the differentials, the housing rotated, then the mounts welded back on. If it's the front end (which it usually is due to the distance between the transfer case and the front end), there may need to be changes to the steering and housing ends to make the steering work properly (I don't think this would be a probability on a 4" lift, but could be on a 6" or more).
The higher the lift, the more potential for problems like this (assuming it's not related to tires or rims - which it doesn't appear to be).
Good Luck
[This message has been edited by HCBPH (edited 11-11-1999).]
[This message has been edited by HCBPH (edited 11-11-1999).]
If it's the yoke not engaged sufficiently, you are going to have to have the drive shaft lengthened. If it's U-Joint angle (the U_Joints at both ends of the drive shaft have to be within a certain number of degrees in operation or vibration & premature wear will occur), then either shims need to be added (if on leaf springs) or the mounts need to be torched off the differentials, the housing rotated, then the mounts welded back on. If it's the front end (which it usually is due to the distance between the transfer case and the front end), there may need to be changes to the steering and housing ends to make the steering work properly (I don't think this would be a probability on a 4" lift, but could be on a 6" or more).
The higher the lift, the more potential for problems like this (assuming it's not related to tires or rims - which it doesn't appear to be).
Good Luck
[This message has been edited by HCBPH (edited 11-11-1999).]
[This message has been edited by HCBPH (edited 11-11-1999).]
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From: muscatine,iowa,usa
eriko
Could it be that you are having problems with the angle of the U-joints? I know that when you lower the F-150's you need to install shims in the rear end to correct the angle of the u-joint or you will have problems which include shortened life of the u-joints and vibrations. It would seem logical that this needs to be done when you lift a truck. Maybe somebody forgot to do it or just doesn't know any better.
Paul
Could it be that you are having problems with the angle of the U-joints? I know that when you lower the F-150's you need to install shims in the rear end to correct the angle of the u-joint or you will have problems which include shortened life of the u-joints and vibrations. It would seem logical that this needs to be done when you lift a truck. Maybe somebody forgot to do it or just doesn't know any better.
Paul
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From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
Thanks all for all of the great advice. I have pondered all of the possibilities myself and am a bit frustrated.
In response to HCBPH & fin2lean...the rear of the expedition is a coil sprung multi-link system with no blocks or shims...just longer coils and a drop bracket for the cross brace...very simple!
It seems the geometry remained the same at the rear end as the trailing arms are the pivot point and the differential rotated with the longer coils...but...the angle at the rear of the transmission has increased as well as pulled out of the socket about a 1/2"!
As far as the front end, the whole differential assembly was lowered creating increased angles on both of the U-joints! The increase is not extreme as this is only a 4" lift...but because of the shortness of the shaft, they are probably at the end of their tolerance limits.
Another thing I can't quite understand is that the Tahoe, Yukon and new Silverado 4" kits by Trailmaster all require a new constant velocity driveshaft for the front ens to reduce vibration problems...go figure?
I think I will start the process of elimination by removing the front driveshaft and driving to see what happens and then go from there.
Again...thanks all for your input...I will try and report my findings as they develop.
Erik
In response to HCBPH & fin2lean...the rear of the expedition is a coil sprung multi-link system with no blocks or shims...just longer coils and a drop bracket for the cross brace...very simple!
It seems the geometry remained the same at the rear end as the trailing arms are the pivot point and the differential rotated with the longer coils...but...the angle at the rear of the transmission has increased as well as pulled out of the socket about a 1/2"!
As far as the front end, the whole differential assembly was lowered creating increased angles on both of the U-joints! The increase is not extreme as this is only a 4" lift...but because of the shortness of the shaft, they are probably at the end of their tolerance limits.
Another thing I can't quite understand is that the Tahoe, Yukon and new Silverado 4" kits by Trailmaster all require a new constant velocity driveshaft for the front ens to reduce vibration problems...go figure?
I think I will start the process of elimination by removing the front driveshaft and driving to see what happens and then go from there.
Again...thanks all for your input...I will try and report my findings as they develop.
Erik
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Joined: Dec 1997
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From: Windsor,Ontario,Canada
Eriko,
Does your kit lower the T-Case? This will keep the U joints from binding. When they lowered the front differential did they remove/kink/disconnect any vacuum hoses? Your T-case has an electric shift motor was it damaged/disconnected? Check out these possibilities before you disconnect the drive shaft. I just thought of something... Did they remove the shaft to install the kit? If they did, did they index it? If not it might be out of phase and this will cause vibration.
regards
Jean Marc Chartier
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00 F-150 XLT SC Flairside 4x4 4.6 w/5spd
Warn XD9000i, skid plates, Draw tite class III,
Rancho RSX Reflex shocks,
SmittyBilt Nerfs, Borla Cat Back
Modified Air Cleaner Outlet Tube
To Be installed;
Superchips
Does your kit lower the T-Case? This will keep the U joints from binding. When they lowered the front differential did they remove/kink/disconnect any vacuum hoses? Your T-case has an electric shift motor was it damaged/disconnected? Check out these possibilities before you disconnect the drive shaft. I just thought of something... Did they remove the shaft to install the kit? If they did, did they index it? If not it might be out of phase and this will cause vibration.
regards
Jean Marc Chartier
------------------
00 F-150 XLT SC Flairside 4x4 4.6 w/5spd
Warn XD9000i, skid plates, Draw tite class III,
Rancho RSX Reflex shocks,
SmittyBilt Nerfs, Borla Cat Back
Modified Air Cleaner Outlet Tube
To Be installed;
Superchips
Trending Topics
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: Dec 1997
Posts: 9,417
Likes: 11
From: Windsor,Ontario,Canada
Eriko,
Does your kit lower the T-Case? This will keep the U joints from binding. When they lowered the front differential did they remove/kink/disconnect any vacuum hoses? Your T-case has an electric shift motor was it damaged/disconnected? Check out these possibilities before you disconnect the drive shaft. I just thought of something... Did they remove the shaft to install the kit? If they did, did they index it? If not it might be out of phase and this will cause vibration.
regards
Jean Marc Chartier
------------------
00 F-150 XLT SC Flairside 4x4 4.6 w/5spd
Warn XD9000i, skid plates, Draw tite class III,
Rancho RSX Reflex shocks,
SmittyBilt Nerfs, Borla Cat Back
Modified Air Cleaner Outlet Tube
To Be installed;
Superchips
Does your kit lower the T-Case? This will keep the U joints from binding. When they lowered the front differential did they remove/kink/disconnect any vacuum hoses? Your T-case has an electric shift motor was it damaged/disconnected? Check out these possibilities before you disconnect the drive shaft. I just thought of something... Did they remove the shaft to install the kit? If they did, did they index it? If not it might be out of phase and this will cause vibration.
regards
Jean Marc Chartier
------------------
00 F-150 XLT SC Flairside 4x4 4.6 w/5spd
Warn XD9000i, skid plates, Draw tite class III,
Rancho RSX Reflex shocks,
SmittyBilt Nerfs, Borla Cat Back
Modified Air Cleaner Outlet Tube
To Be installed;
Superchips
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Joined: Nov 1999
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From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
test
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Jacked '97 Expedition XLT 4x4,5.4L,4" Trailmaster lift, 315-75-16's on 16x8 ASA rims, K&N filter, Smittybuilt sure steps, Kenwood Excelon CD w/ 10 Disc Changer, Zapco amps, KEF seperates, Boston Acoustics Pro-10" sub and lots of future plans...will work for truck parts!
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Jacked '97 Expedition XLT 4x4,5.4L,4" Trailmaster lift, 315-75-16's on 16x8 ASA rims, K&N filter, Smittybuilt sure steps, Kenwood Excelon CD w/ 10 Disc Changer, Zapco amps, KEF seperates, Boston Acoustics Pro-10" sub and lots of future plans...will work for truck parts!
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From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
I am not sure if the driveshafts were removed or not during installation...but I have questioned that myself. The shop that did the install is very reputable in the industry and considered the best around...but I am beginning to wonder!
When I took it back to them with the problem they put it on the rack and ran it. They said there was a lot of play in the spline area where the rear shaft goes into the transmission and they suggested a driveline lengthening. I told Trailmaster and they said that the 4" kit does not require driveline lengthening and told me about the front driveline/transfer case/torque bias deal.
I appreciate all the feedback...I now have a better idea for things to look for when troubleshooting!
next...
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Jacked '97 Expedition XLT 4x4,5.4L,4" Trailmaster lift, 315-75-16's on 16x8 ASA rims, K&N filter, Smittybuilt sure steps, Kenwood Excelon CD w/ 10 Disc Changer, Zapco amps, KEF seperates, Boston Acoustics Pro-10" sub and lots of future plans...will work for truck parts!
When I took it back to them with the problem they put it on the rack and ran it. They said there was a lot of play in the spline area where the rear shaft goes into the transmission and they suggested a driveline lengthening. I told Trailmaster and they said that the 4" kit does not require driveline lengthening and told me about the front driveline/transfer case/torque bias deal.
I appreciate all the feedback...I now have a better idea for things to look for when troubleshooting!
next...
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Jacked '97 Expedition XLT 4x4,5.4L,4" Trailmaster lift, 315-75-16's on 16x8 ASA rims, K&N filter, Smittybuilt sure steps, Kenwood Excelon CD w/ 10 Disc Changer, Zapco amps, KEF seperates, Boston Acoustics Pro-10" sub and lots of future plans...will work for truck parts!
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Joined: Dec 1969
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From: gainesville, FL
JMC
Correct me if I am wrong. Doesnt the front driveshaft always turn when in any gear except neutral? I thought it did because the front differential has center axle disconnect.
Here is another thought. Although you said the vibration was there before the lift could the cause be the ball joint spacers that the Trailmaster kit uses? My neighbor had terrible problems with his 97 when he had a Trailmaster kit on it. He experienced shaking just like you have explained.
Correct me if I am wrong. Doesnt the front driveshaft always turn when in any gear except neutral? I thought it did because the front differential has center axle disconnect.
Here is another thought. Although you said the vibration was there before the lift could the cause be the ball joint spacers that the Trailmaster kit uses? My neighbor had terrible problems with his 97 when he had a Trailmaster kit on it. He experienced shaking just like you have explained.
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From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
Actually...there was no vibration prior to lifting.
When I picked it up from the shop is when the vibration was present. I still had stock tires/wheels on it for a day.
When I added the larger tires, the vibration seemed to be a little less noticable...but still there.
The vibration I am experiencing is a high frequency type between 40 to 50 MPH not a shaking, wobble or anything in the steering...it definately feels like a driveline/drivetrain related vibration.
One other thing I failed to mention is the vibration seems less when loaded or pulling my boat!
Maybe the drive shaft splines are moving into the transmission further when the truck squats and making better contact and less play.
Hey...maybe I just solved my problem...longer driveline!
Who knows...I wish Ford was a little more receptive to working on lifted trucks.
Some may ask if it was worth it? Well, I like everything about the lift except the vibration...looks, ride, attention...all is good!
I even went to the trouble of talking to a few people with lifted Expeditions prior to lifting and I never got back a negative response...all positive!
Oh well, I guess we all learn from our mistakes. I should have been satisfied with some 285-75-16's and all would probably be well!
Boys and their toys...as my mom always said!
Regards,
Erik
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Jacked '97 Expedition XLT 4x4,5.4L,4" Trailmaster lift, 315-75-16's on 16x8 ASA rims, K&N filter, Smittybuilt sure steps, Kenwood Excelon CD w/ 10 Disc Changer, Zapco amps, KEF seperates, Boston Acoustics Pro-10" sub and lots of future plans...will work for truck parts!
When I picked it up from the shop is when the vibration was present. I still had stock tires/wheels on it for a day.
When I added the larger tires, the vibration seemed to be a little less noticable...but still there.
The vibration I am experiencing is a high frequency type between 40 to 50 MPH not a shaking, wobble or anything in the steering...it definately feels like a driveline/drivetrain related vibration.
One other thing I failed to mention is the vibration seems less when loaded or pulling my boat!
Maybe the drive shaft splines are moving into the transmission further when the truck squats and making better contact and less play.
Hey...maybe I just solved my problem...longer driveline!
Who knows...I wish Ford was a little more receptive to working on lifted trucks.
Some may ask if it was worth it? Well, I like everything about the lift except the vibration...looks, ride, attention...all is good!
I even went to the trouble of talking to a few people with lifted Expeditions prior to lifting and I never got back a negative response...all positive!
Oh well, I guess we all learn from our mistakes. I should have been satisfied with some 285-75-16's and all would probably be well!
Boys and their toys...as my mom always said!
Regards,
Erik
------------------
Jacked '97 Expedition XLT 4x4,5.4L,4" Trailmaster lift, 315-75-16's on 16x8 ASA rims, K&N filter, Smittybuilt sure steps, Kenwood Excelon CD w/ 10 Disc Changer, Zapco amps, KEF seperates, Boston Acoustics Pro-10" sub and lots of future plans...will work for truck parts!
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From: muscatine,iowa,usa
eriko
Beings that your Exp. is a 97 I will presume that you have maybe 30-40,000 miles on it. Could it be that one of the u-joints may need to be replaced. Before is was lifted it didn't have as much strain due to the lesser angle of the driveshaft, and now that it is lifted, the extra angle on the driveshaft has brought this vibration out. I presume that you lifted it for the purpose of taking it off the road.If you did, replace the u-joints with some good brand name u-joints, just for your own peace of mind. Breaking a u-joint is no fun, the machine that I operate at work has twenty driveshafts on it (thats right twenty), breaking a u-joint on it is NO FUN.
Paul
Beings that your Exp. is a 97 I will presume that you have maybe 30-40,000 miles on it. Could it be that one of the u-joints may need to be replaced. Before is was lifted it didn't have as much strain due to the lesser angle of the driveshaft, and now that it is lifted, the extra angle on the driveshaft has brought this vibration out. I presume that you lifted it for the purpose of taking it off the road.If you did, replace the u-joints with some good brand name u-joints, just for your own peace of mind. Breaking a u-joint is no fun, the machine that I operate at work has twenty driveshafts on it (thats right twenty), breaking a u-joint on it is NO FUN.
Paul
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From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
Update...
I had the rear driveline lengthened and balanced...NO CHANGE!!!
All of the U Joints are in excellent condition and are Spicer...One of the best I understand. The front of the rear shaft is even constant velocity(2 u joints back to back)
Next step...
Computer adjustments or front driveline changes!
Erik
I had the rear driveline lengthened and balanced...NO CHANGE!!!
All of the U Joints are in excellent condition and are Spicer...One of the best I understand. The front of the rear shaft is even constant velocity(2 u joints back to back)
Next step...
Computer adjustments or front driveline changes!
Erik
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Joined: Oct 1998
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From: Kalamazoo, MI USA
Eriko: you may wish to see my 12/3 post on https://www.f150online.com/f150board.../000002-2.html
(edited url)
Good Luck,
Jim
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"00" XLT SC 5.4 7700 4x4 SB repeat buyer
[This message has been edited by jgorka (edited 12-06-1999).]
(edited url)
Good Luck,
Jim
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"00" XLT SC 5.4 7700 4x4 SB repeat buyer
[This message has been edited by jgorka (edited 12-06-1999).]