4 cylinder cutoff a myth, maybe?
Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 74
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From: Morganville, NJ
Okay???
Why in my 99 do I notice that the 1-2 is the firmest (almost harsh) of all? At any throttle opening of less than 75% the truck shifts hard enought to snap your neck. Inexperience passengers give me looks like something is wrong.
Over 75% the timing cut is heard, and the shift isn't as noticeable, more heard from the LOUD pop from the exhaust (mine doesn't fart) It will stink like really rotten eggs though if you have the slider open. Yuck!
The 2-3 at anything less than about half throttle is too soft, it only firms up and heavier openingw when it slams the converter on during the shift.
The 3-4 is okay, pretty much it stays the same whether you are easy or hard on it.
I guess it's just build tolerance from one truck to the next?
Why in my 99 do I notice that the 1-2 is the firmest (almost harsh) of all? At any throttle opening of less than 75% the truck shifts hard enought to snap your neck. Inexperience passengers give me looks like something is wrong.
Over 75% the timing cut is heard, and the shift isn't as noticeable, more heard from the LOUD pop from the exhaust (mine doesn't fart) It will stink like really rotten eggs though if you have the slider open. Yuck!
The 2-3 at anything less than about half throttle is too soft, it only firms up and heavier openingw when it slams the converter on during the shift.
The 3-4 is okay, pretty much it stays the same whether you are easy or hard on it.
I guess it's just build tolerance from one truck to the next?
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 158
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From: Boston, MA.
Hey MRACER:
I installed one of Factory Tech's modified accumulator valves in my unchipped L and I can tell you that regardless of whether the ECM modifies, drops or otherwise changes what the engine does during a shift, my transmission shifts quickly and powerfully. No noticeable delays, drops or hesitations during shifting under part throttle acceleration, around town cruising, bumper to bumper creeping, or WOT. In fact, my truck has run within 2 tenths of afew heavily modified 99-00 L's (chips, 90mm MAFs, cold air or open filters). I'd be interested to hear from owners who've replaced trannys whether or not they're running chips.
I installed one of Factory Tech's modified accumulator valves in my unchipped L and I can tell you that regardless of whether the ECM modifies, drops or otherwise changes what the engine does during a shift, my transmission shifts quickly and powerfully. No noticeable delays, drops or hesitations during shifting under part throttle acceleration, around town cruising, bumper to bumper creeping, or WOT. In fact, my truck has run within 2 tenths of afew heavily modified 99-00 L's (chips, 90mm MAFs, cold air or open filters). I'd be interested to hear from owners who've replaced trannys whether or not they're running chips.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,985
Likes: 1
From: Cincinnati, OH
Fair enough, sorry I wasn't trying to **** anyone off.
Sharonville is the factory where all 4R100s are made, on any given day I work on as few as 4 and as many as about 35 transmissions, depending on what's wrong with them. I can strip a 4R100 to the case and rebuild it in about 25 minutes,without diagnosis, but my typical day could go from (the case is cracked, yer problem is obvious) to 1-2 feels soft (it could be one of about 35 different things)
I definitely don't mean to slam a dealer tech, they do something entirely differnt than me, I diaganose with a $7 Million test stand, they have to drive it and figure it out from "feel", a wholly different thing. In the past few years, dealers have stopped for the most part repairing transmissions, it just doesn't make sense anymore, the electronics are to much to have the equipment to diagnose and it's cheaper to just replace the box, so for the most part a dealer tech makes a few simple checks (fluid level, they check the filter becasue for a while they were coming off on some units until the pan design was changed, check the electrical connections) and if everything is right, they call for a replacement authorization. That's just the way it is now. Go to a dealer and ask if they'll repair your tranny, most won't.
As far as the warranty thing, all warranty replacements are sent back to Sharonville for diagnosis, and a warranty claim can be denied based upon that diagnosis, even after the work is done, simply, Ford charges the dealer for the box, who may or may not call you up for payment (they do sometimes eat the cost I'm told).
The decision to replace it isn't made at the dealer, they call Ford and get an authorization for it and that authorization is subject to the validation report generated when we examine the box.
There is a post here somewhere from someone who went through this with an engine.
As far as how many boxes I've worked on, I have a log file in a computer that tracks every repair I make, I can access this file for every repair to see what works for a given code, what might be wrong, etc.. pretty good software, and it keeps track of how many I've done, so yeah, I'm an old fart (about 40) but I have built more boxes then almost anyone I know except for the guys I work with, more than all the delaer techs I know put together.
Sharonville is the factory where all 4R100s are made, on any given day I work on as few as 4 and as many as about 35 transmissions, depending on what's wrong with them. I can strip a 4R100 to the case and rebuild it in about 25 minutes,without diagnosis, but my typical day could go from (the case is cracked, yer problem is obvious) to 1-2 feels soft (it could be one of about 35 different things)
I definitely don't mean to slam a dealer tech, they do something entirely differnt than me, I diaganose with a $7 Million test stand, they have to drive it and figure it out from "feel", a wholly different thing. In the past few years, dealers have stopped for the most part repairing transmissions, it just doesn't make sense anymore, the electronics are to much to have the equipment to diagnose and it's cheaper to just replace the box, so for the most part a dealer tech makes a few simple checks (fluid level, they check the filter becasue for a while they were coming off on some units until the pan design was changed, check the electrical connections) and if everything is right, they call for a replacement authorization. That's just the way it is now. Go to a dealer and ask if they'll repair your tranny, most won't.
As far as the warranty thing, all warranty replacements are sent back to Sharonville for diagnosis, and a warranty claim can be denied based upon that diagnosis, even after the work is done, simply, Ford charges the dealer for the box, who may or may not call you up for payment (they do sometimes eat the cost I'm told).
The decision to replace it isn't made at the dealer, they call Ford and get an authorization for it and that authorization is subject to the validation report generated when we examine the box.
There is a post here somewhere from someone who went through this with an engine.
As far as how many boxes I've worked on, I have a log file in a computer that tracks every repair I make, I can access this file for every repair to see what works for a given code, what might be wrong, etc.. pretty good software, and it keeps track of how many I've done, so yeah, I'm an old fart (about 40) but I have built more boxes then almost anyone I know except for the guys I work with, more than all the delaer techs I know put together.
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 12,632
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From: Stinkin Joisey
Re: Grrrrrrrr...
Originally posted by LightningTuner
Arg... I was the first one to respond to this post yesterday, and just as I wrote a response that was VERY long and detialed, my computer locked up!!
Now that I've calmed down, here goes agian... 
The timing cut out thing is used by Ford on many vehicle lines. It has been used for many years. What happens is that during the shifts, the PCM drops timing, to reduce torque on the trans and help prolong life. This is done on both sticks and autos. This is simply a failsafe Ford puts in to help reduce the number of warrenty trans failures. It is NOT something done on just the Lightning, it is done on all Ford vehicles.
This concept is used on all Ford trucks as well, however it's achieved differently. Ford truck PCMs are unique in that they have a special failsafe feature. When the PCM detects a major problem with the drivetrain, it will drop cylinders. One example is if the motor overheats. If it reaches 240 degrees ECT, it will kill 4 cylinders to reduce heat, but still allow the driver to get to a dealer. If it ECT reaches 260 degrees, it shuts the motor down completely.
Instead of writing all new code to pull timing during the shifts, the calibrators simply tapped into this part of the PCM, and made the trucks drop cylinder percentage. In the PCM, the table is called Torque Reduction. The numbers in the table represent the severity of the cylinder drop, based on RPM and LOAD.
Oh, and I may not be a Ford Powertrain Engineer, but when the 99 Lightning was being developed I was contacted by several Calibration Engineers on the Lightning Team, for calibration advice based on my previous calibration experiance with the Gen 1 trucks. So there's a little PSP in all your trucks
Arg... I was the first one to respond to this post yesterday, and just as I wrote a response that was VERY long and detialed, my computer locked up!!
Now that I've calmed down, here goes agian... The timing cut out thing is used by Ford on many vehicle lines. It has been used for many years. What happens is that during the shifts, the PCM drops timing, to reduce torque on the trans and help prolong life. This is done on both sticks and autos. This is simply a failsafe Ford puts in to help reduce the number of warrenty trans failures. It is NOT something done on just the Lightning, it is done on all Ford vehicles.
This concept is used on all Ford trucks as well, however it's achieved differently. Ford truck PCMs are unique in that they have a special failsafe feature. When the PCM detects a major problem with the drivetrain, it will drop cylinders. One example is if the motor overheats. If it reaches 240 degrees ECT, it will kill 4 cylinders to reduce heat, but still allow the driver to get to a dealer. If it ECT reaches 260 degrees, it shuts the motor down completely.
Instead of writing all new code to pull timing during the shifts, the calibrators simply tapped into this part of the PCM, and made the trucks drop cylinder percentage. In the PCM, the table is called Torque Reduction. The numbers in the table represent the severity of the cylinder drop, based on RPM and LOAD.
Oh, and I may not be a Ford Powertrain Engineer, but when the 99 Lightning was being developed I was contacted by several Calibration Engineers on the Lightning Team, for calibration advice based on my previous calibration experiance with the Gen 1 trucks. So there's a little PSP in all your trucks
Senior Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 458
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From: HAMPTON,ILL, ROCK ISLAND
Ok so the bottom line here is the 1-2 shift isn't firm,their is a problem with the trannys...Regardless of what the Tech says the spring in my "NEW" tranny for the 1-2 shift was soft,not firm!!!! The next shift you really notice during racing is the 2-3 shift which isn't taking the stress the 1-2 puts on the tranny or engine and is smooth and at least in my truck hasn't been a problem.So what it all boils down to is your buying a performance vehicle,that has safeguards built in so it just doesn't break due to you using the power the truck was built to produce
.
Ok guess I undersatnd that
But I didn't spend all the bucks for safeguards,I want the truck to run like it's built to run and at full potential.....so don't shut cylinders down on me, don't screw with the timing,just let the races begin..
Did they thing we bought these things to haul anything other than A$$...
J MAN
.Ok guess I undersatnd that
But I didn't spend all the bucks for safeguards,I want the truck to run like it's built to run and at full potential.....so don't shut cylinders down on me, don't screw with the timing,just let the races begin..
Did they thing we bought these things to haul anything other than A$$...
J MAN
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Lots of intersting responses to this thread, some really good information. However, the most interesting thing is what hasn't been said. I have noticed that certain questions are never addressed. I don't know if it's just that that no one knows, or they don't want to talk about it. Anyway, the quest for L knowledge continues.
I'm still waiting for a program that does nothing with the shifts. I've been told time and again, that I would am crazy for asking, but really, what would be the harm in picking up 30 rwhp and leaving the shifting stock. That way, the shifts could be improved mechanically. From all the info I have been able to piece together, that would be the ideal setup. Maybe that 30 rwhp is not there without without changing the shifts.
I'm still waiting for a program that does nothing with the shifts. I've been told time and again, that I would am crazy for asking, but really, what would be the harm in picking up 30 rwhp and leaving the shifting stock. That way, the shifts could be improved mechanically. From all the info I have been able to piece together, that would be the ideal setup. Maybe that 30 rwhp is not there without without changing the shifts.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,985
Likes: 1
From: Cincinnati, OH
Okay, I'll try to address the only question I see still not answered that I have an opinion on.
First, someone asked what is different about my transmission from stock. I have a modified accumulator, (the one Sal sells, I build it), my pump is a custom built high output unit (i build those, too), my output shaft case bushing has been replaced with a ball bearing assembly with an extra ball bearing assembly in the rear of the extension housing, I have a power take off coast clutch (more plates), a modified forward clutch pack, deep pan and i have an external filter and extrta cooling radiator built into the system.
The reduction is there for all of the above. First, they don't want you to break anything under warranty and they decided for good or ill that softening up the 1-2 would save something, so be it. Another thing I know is that not just Ls but all automatics have soft shifts because that's what customers expect. Not guys who drive 380 HP pickups or diesels per se, all customers. A setup very similar to the shift kit I make was tested by PTO engineers who lovede it but couldn't get it on the saleable truck because the wise men decided that if the truck shifted that hard (even though this reduces wear and is in that respect better for the box) that X amount of customers would think something was wrong and bring the truck in to be "fixed" when it was doing exactly what it was set up to do. The same problem exists on the diesels, most guys who drive a diesel would prefer a firmer shift, esspecially if they understood the effect it has on the friction plates and clutches, but because a certain amount of customers wouldn't know any better the box is calibrated for nice smooth (soft) shifts, which may make them wear a bit more, but not as many are gonna be replaced under warranty when actually there's nothing wrong with them.
That's the way I see it.
J Man, email me, I have soemthing for you.
GBEvans@peoplepc.com
First, someone asked what is different about my transmission from stock. I have a modified accumulator, (the one Sal sells, I build it), my pump is a custom built high output unit (i build those, too), my output shaft case bushing has been replaced with a ball bearing assembly with an extra ball bearing assembly in the rear of the extension housing, I have a power take off coast clutch (more plates), a modified forward clutch pack, deep pan and i have an external filter and extrta cooling radiator built into the system.
The reduction is there for all of the above. First, they don't want you to break anything under warranty and they decided for good or ill that softening up the 1-2 would save something, so be it. Another thing I know is that not just Ls but all automatics have soft shifts because that's what customers expect. Not guys who drive 380 HP pickups or diesels per se, all customers. A setup very similar to the shift kit I make was tested by PTO engineers who lovede it but couldn't get it on the saleable truck because the wise men decided that if the truck shifted that hard (even though this reduces wear and is in that respect better for the box) that X amount of customers would think something was wrong and bring the truck in to be "fixed" when it was doing exactly what it was set up to do. The same problem exists on the diesels, most guys who drive a diesel would prefer a firmer shift, esspecially if they understood the effect it has on the friction plates and clutches, but because a certain amount of customers wouldn't know any better the box is calibrated for nice smooth (soft) shifts, which may make them wear a bit more, but not as many are gonna be replaced under warranty when actually there's nothing wrong with them.
That's the way I see it.
J Man, email me, I have soemthing for you.
GBEvans@peoplepc.com
Banned For Rules Violations
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,585
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From: Mobile, AL, USA
Originally posted by mracer
Question #1
The torque reduction during shifts is accomplished by:
a. no spark to 4 cylinders (extra credit: which ones?)
b. timing pulled on 4 cylinders (same?)
c. timing pulled on all 8 cylinders (moot)
Question #1
The torque reduction during shifts is accomplished by:
a. no spark to 4 cylinders (extra credit: which ones?)
b. timing pulled on 4 cylinders (same?)
c. timing pulled on all 8 cylinders (moot)
As Sal said:
The timing cut out thing is used by Ford on many vehicle lines. It has been used for many years. What happens is that during the shifts, the PCM drops timing, to reduce torque on the trans and help prolong life. This is done on both sticks and autos. This is simply a failsafe Ford puts in to help reduce the number of warrenty trans failures.It is NOT something done on just the Lightning, it is done on all Ford vehicles.
This concept is used on all Ford trucks as well, however it's achieved differently. Ford truck PCMs are unique in that they have a special failsafe feature. When the PCM detects a major problem with the drivetrain, it will drop cylinders. One example is if the motor overheats. If it reaches 240 degrees ECT, it will kill 4 cylinders to reduce heat, but still allow the driver to get to a dealer. If it ECT reaches 260 degrees, it shuts the motor down completely.
Instead of writing all new code to pull timing during the shifts, the calibrators simply tapped into this part of the PCM, and made the trucks drop cylinder percentage. In the PCM, the table is called Torque Reduction. The numbers in the table represent the severity of the cylinder drop, based on RPM and LOAD.
This concept is used on all Ford trucks as well, however it's achieved differently. Ford truck PCMs are unique in that they have a special failsafe feature. When the PCM detects a major problem with the drivetrain, it will drop cylinders. One example is if the motor overheats. If it reaches 240 degrees ECT, it will kill 4 cylinders to reduce heat, but still allow the driver to get to a dealer. If it ECT reaches 260 degrees, it shuts the motor down completely.
Instead of writing all new code to pull timing during the shifts, the calibrators simply tapped into this part of the PCM, and made the trucks drop cylinder percentage. In the PCM, the table is called Torque Reduction. The numbers in the table represent the severity of the cylinder drop, based on RPM and LOAD.
The Lightning just activates FAILSAFE just like all the other trucks and that NONE of them use the timing retard feature that other Ford products do for shifts, since Ford didn't activate it. The PCM has the ability to pull back timing and advance it based on specific readings it takes. Here's the catcher: THE FAILSAFE NOT ONLY DROPS CYLINDERS BUT IT ALSO RETARDS TIMING!
So there you have it, it's both, but it a different way than other Ford vehicles
BfB
Last edited by BfB; Aug 19, 2001 at 12:44 PM.