Stiffer Valve Springs Question...
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From: Santa Clarita ,CA
Originally Posted by tallimeca
to see a stock long block truck with a say a 6lb lower, and open air intake dyno'd back to back with no change except valve springs. The odds of it happening are slim to never.
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From: Hammer Lane
Originally Posted by 2000L
Im about to do this, I will be adding a full long tube exhuast system at the time though.
The long tubes don't add much anyway. Even if they did, the characteristics of the gragh will tell the story. I'm hoping to see the power in the upper rpms to continue to climb all the way to redline instead of dieing off at 4800 rpms.
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From: Auburn Wa
I think that getting the valves under control is letting a LOT of things happen.
Why should the headers show an increase in power if the valves are flopping around not doing there job. The power increases that you will see from the springs isn't just from the springs it's from the whole system falling into sync.
Dale
Why should the headers show an increase in power if the valves are flopping around not doing there job. The power increases that you will see from the springs isn't just from the springs it's from the whole system falling into sync.
Dale
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From: Hammer Lane
Originally Posted by Bad as L
The power increases that you will see from the springs isn't just from the springs it's from the whole system falling into sync.
Dale
Dale
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From: Selden NY
Very well put 
I'm going to say that your Dyno shows no signs "as is" of the springs causing a loss of power. AMOF you have a very nice TQ and HP line and both are holding very nicely into the higher RPM's. 
(Is that the Mag + 6lb Pulley ?)
What you can plainly see on Chim and my old Dyno's are a dip and drop off
of both Tq and HP at @4700 "where the springs started to bounch"
I DO NOT see that on yours
The reason I'm going to say yours is ok is the lack of boost your running through it, (and I dont mean that in a negative way). Jim will usually only use a 6lb pulley on Stock Springs and Headed Mag's for that reason. They seem to be just ok at that level, BUT remember the Mag love boost and really puts down a lot of extra tq (and some added HP) with a 8lb or 10 lb pulley, and with that set up and stock springs "YOU WILL" clearly be lossing power. SO if your planing on running more boost then springs are def needed. If not then you may not see the results others will at higher boost levels.
Most of Charles test showed 18-20 lbs is where they opened up and started dumping HP.
Originally Posted by Odin's Wrath
I'm not making the power you guys are; but, I do have a fall off of power at about 4800 rpms. This dyno was before I installed the 60# injectors and e-fan. Different tune as well. The graph shape shouldn't have been changed though.
Yes, I know that was a lean pull. Hence the 60lb. injectors and updated tune.
Yes, I know that was a lean pull. Hence the 60lb. injectors and updated tune.
(Is that the Mag + 6lb Pulley ?)
What you can plainly see on Chim and my old Dyno's are a dip and drop off
of both Tq and HP at @4700 "where the springs started to bounch"
I DO NOT see that on yours
The reason I'm going to say yours is ok is the lack of boost your running through it, (and I dont mean that in a negative way). Jim will usually only use a 6lb pulley on Stock Springs and Headed Mag's for that reason. They seem to be just ok at that level, BUT remember the Mag love boost and really puts down a lot of extra tq (and some added HP) with a 8lb or 10 lb pulley, and with that set up and stock springs "YOU WILL" clearly be lossing power. SO if your planing on running more boost then springs are def needed. If not then you may not see the results others will at higher boost levels.
Most of Charles test showed 18-20 lbs is where they opened up and started dumping HP.
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From: CORAL SPRINGS, FL. USA
Originally Posted by Odin's Wrath
I'm wondering if we have the same springs as the N/A 5.4's? If so, I can definitely see where that would be an area to focus on. I'm surprised it hasn't been an issue more widely discussed here over the years. Being a novice, it never occured to me. I'm interested to see what kind of gains are possible in the upper rpm range, on a stock long block.
They ARE the same springs. thats the whole problem.Cam and springs.
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Originally Posted by Rob_02Lightning
Very well put
I'm going to say that your Dyno shows no signs "as is" of the springs causing a loss of power. AMOF you have a very nice TQ and HP line and both are holding very nicely into the higher RPM's.
(Is that the Mag + 6lb Pulley ?)
What you can plainly see on Chim and my old Dyno's are a dip and drop off
of both Tq and HP at @4700 "where the springs started to bounch"
I DO NOT see that on yours
The reason I'm going to say yours is ok is the lack of boost your running through it, (and I dont mean that in a negative way). Jim will usually only use a 6lb pulley on Stock Springs and Headed Mag's for that reason. They seem to be just ok at that level, BUT remember the Mag love boost and really puts down a lot of extra tq (and some added HP) with a 8lb or 10 lb pulley, and with that set up and stock springs "YOU WILL" clearly be lossing power. SO if your planing on running more boost then springs are def needed. If not then you may not see the results others will at higher boost levels.
Most of Charles test showed 18-20 lbs is where they opened up and started dumping HP.
I'm going to say that your Dyno shows no signs "as is" of the springs causing a loss of power. AMOF you have a very nice TQ and HP line and both are holding very nicely into the higher RPM's.
(Is that the Mag + 6lb Pulley ?)
What you can plainly see on Chim and my old Dyno's are a dip and drop off
of both Tq and HP at @4700 "where the springs started to bounch"
I DO NOT see that on yours
The reason I'm going to say yours is ok is the lack of boost your running through it, (and I dont mean that in a negative way). Jim will usually only use a 6lb pulley on Stock Springs and Headed Mag's for that reason. They seem to be just ok at that level, BUT remember the Mag love boost and really puts down a lot of extra tq (and some added HP) with a 8lb or 10 lb pulley, and with that set up and stock springs "YOU WILL" clearly be lossing power. SO if your planing on running more boost then springs are def needed. If not then you may not see the results others will at higher boost levels.
Most of Charles test showed 18-20 lbs is where they opened up and started dumping HP.
On the dyno I saw 17 hp gain at red line running 15psi boost between 80# springs and 95# springs but 30hp at red line at 18-psi boost with the same spring comparison. The stock springs are more like 70# (or less if worn) so I would thing the gains would be significant upgrading from 70# to 100# or so. It is true the higher the boost the more hp gain you will see, and it's also true the more "potential” you engine has the more gain you will get.
Charles
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From: WINDSOR, ONTARIO, CANADA
HI!... Well I'm running 2 COMP-CAMS custom ground cams in my built N/A 5.4. They have 0.599/0.599lift, 234/234 duration. They are turbo grinds but I have not installed the turbo as yet. These are the valve springs I'm running :
They must be working pretty good since I have revved this engine to 6850RPM on the dyno many times in the last week with no problems.
They must be working pretty good since I have revved this engine to 6850RPM on the dyno many times in the last week with no problems.
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From: Auburn Wa
Originally Posted by Magnum Powers
I can see a clear "kink" in his curve right at 4800 rpm however the change in slope is not much as power was gaining only slowly up to 4800 but then after 4800 rpm power started to drop slowly. If instead power continued to gain slowly up to redline the power difference would be quite a bit. A problem reading this chart is the scale caused by the big negative 250hp spike at the end that shrinks things up so much making the change of slope look small.
On the dyno I saw 17 hp gain at red line running 15psi boost between 80# springs and 95# springs but 30hp at red line at 18-psi boost with the same spring comparison. The stock springs are more like 70# (or less if worn) so I would thing the gains would be significant upgrading from 70# to 100# or so. It is true the higher the boost the more hp gain you will see, and it's also true the more "potential” you engine has the more gain you will get.
Charles
On the dyno I saw 17 hp gain at red line running 15psi boost between 80# springs and 95# springs but 30hp at red line at 18-psi boost with the same spring comparison. The stock springs are more like 70# (or less if worn) so I would thing the gains would be significant upgrading from 70# to 100# or so. It is true the higher the boost the more hp gain you will see, and it's also true the more "potential” you engine has the more gain you will get.
Charles
You don't need to see a problem on a dyno sheet to need valve springs and I think if you do see a problem on a dyno sheet then, you have needed springs for a long long time.
Dale
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From: Pensacola,Fl
Dale always good reading your posts always very informative.
What I am wondering is since the springs are the hardest part of the swap ( I know first had LOL) why not go ahead and do some cams while you are in there. I agree 100 percent that the stock springs cant handle much.
What I am wondering is since the springs are the hardest part of the swap ( I know first had LOL) why not go ahead and do some cams while you are in there. I agree 100 percent that the stock springs cant handle much.
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From: Western Massachusetts
Odin's Wrath, great topic! I'd certianly like to get more info.
My buddy plans on doing cams on his Mustang in the spring. I though this might be a good option for my truck too. We'll have to take the valve spring issue into consideration when planning.
I look forward to hearing what people do.
My buddy plans on doing cams on his Mustang in the spring. I though this might be a good option for my truck too. We'll have to take the valve spring issue into consideration when planning.
I look forward to hearing what people do.
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From: MN
Similar to 2.3 Turbo?
I've been passively reading this thread -- and the spring specs for the 5.4 look an awful lot like the 2.3 OHC (Pinto) spring. I can tell you with certainty that the "weak" 2.3 springs can handle 20lbs of boost at 6000rpm in a high mileage engine with no trouble. If I remember correctly, the seat pressure is only ~60lbs, and open pressure is ~150lbs.
Cory
Cory
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From: Webster, TX
Originally Posted by ericksco
I've been passively reading this thread -- and the spring specs for the 5.4 look an awful lot like the 2.3 OHC (Pinto) spring. I can tell you with certainty that the "weak" 2.3 springs can handle 20lbs of boost at 6000rpm in a high mileage engine with no trouble. If I remember correctly, the seat pressure is only ~60lbs, and open pressure is ~150lbs.
Cory
Cory
So why are the valves leaking on flowbench tests on the 4.6 / 5.4 heads then? One hypothesis - if the valves on these heads are larger, more surface area to lift upon.
Ugh. I've been up really late with a classic Mustang tuning guy, and his really nice flowbench set-up. We did a pressure experment with heads from a 5.4 L 01' Lightning motor with 24,000 miles, no serious mods (wrecked, no motor damage). He read this post and seemed to think that the valve springs were suspect.
The heads are stock. We filled the inlets with red dye and started putting pressure. Cyl 1 started to leak @ 19 PSI and all the others leaked @ 20. The other head all 3 leaked @ 19PSI and one at 20. After that, we baked one in his powdercoat oven @330F and had time to seal off one cylinder and test before it got cooler than 300F and it leaked steam right around 18PSI. Seems as if the heat could have made the spring a little weaker. We grabbed Mustang 4.6 heads with about 5,500 miles that was to be flow mapped for porting and it leaked @ 19/20 PSI cold, too. Anyway I'm real tired, but I too own a MP and am running high boost on a stock motor, and I'm getting **** poor results, and I have a vested interest in the outcome of this whole decable. I think I'm falling into the Charles camp and pointing a finger at valve seal failure from springs that can't quite retain the high boost.
The heads are stock. We filled the inlets with red dye and started putting pressure. Cyl 1 started to leak @ 19 PSI and all the others leaked @ 20. The other head all 3 leaked @ 19PSI and one at 20. After that, we baked one in his powdercoat oven @330F and had time to seal off one cylinder and test before it got cooler than 300F and it leaked steam right around 18PSI. Seems as if the heat could have made the spring a little weaker. We grabbed Mustang 4.6 heads with about 5,500 miles that was to be flow mapped for porting and it leaked @ 19/20 PSI cold, too. Anyway I'm real tired, but I too own a MP and am running high boost on a stock motor, and I'm getting **** poor results, and I have a vested interest in the outcome of this whole decable. I think I'm falling into the Charles camp and pointing a finger at valve seal failure from springs that can't quite retain the high boost.
Last edited by Master Of Pain; Jan 3, 2006 at 05:00 PM.