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Horsepower vs. Torque: Interesting Perspective

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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 12:44 PM
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Horsepower vs. Torque: Interesting Perspective

There's been much discussion on these boards regarding HP vs. Trq. Some of us are on the side of the fence that high RPM HP is all that matters, and low RPM torque is irrelevant. Others think that its all about the "low end grunt." I found an interesting article written by Dave Reher, owner of Reher-Morrison racing engines, published in the most recent National Dragster magazine. A bit of info about Reher, he's considered the 'winning-ist' engine builder in NHRA history...his engines have won more races and national championships than any other. Enjoy the read, it's a good one.

www.rehermorrison.com

Looking back at the 2004 season, I can attribute much of the performance improvement in Pro Stock to faster engine speeds. It’s difficult to believe that 500cid Pro Stock engines now routinely turn 10,000 rpm, but the truth is plain to see on the data recorders and on the time slips.
The trend toward higher and higher engine speeds was also evident in NASCAR stock car racing until the rulemakers applied the brakes with new restrictions on rearend and transmission gear ratios. Now the growing interest in fast bracket racing, Top Sportsman, and Top Comp eliminators is bringing this same high-rpm technology to sportsman drag racers.

Why does turning an engine higher make a race car run faster? This is my final column of the year, so I’ll offer my ideas and hope that they give racers something to think about over the winter break.

The simple explanation is that raising rpm effectively increases an engine’s displacement. This might seem nonsensical because the volume displaced by the pistons doesn’t change, but consider the effects of filling and emptying the cylinders faster in real time. An internal combustion engine is an air pump, and if we turn that pump faster, we can theoretically burn more fuel in a given amount of time and consequently produce more power. For example, an eight-cylinder engine running at 6,000 rpm fires its cylinders 24,000 times in one minute (assuming perfect combustion). Increase the engine’s speed to 8,000 rpm and it will fire 32,000 times per minute, a 33 percent increase. The volume of air and fuel that moves through the engine is now equivalent to an engine with a much larger displacement. There are also 8,000 additional power pulses per minute transmitted to the crankshaft that can be harnessed to turn the wheels and accelerate the car.

Raising engine speed is analogous to supercharging or turbocharging a motor; the goal is to increase the volume of air and fuel that moves through the engine. The airflow is increased with a forced induction system by pressurizing the intake system; in a naturally aspirated engine, the airflow is increased by raising rpm. If done correctly, both approaches will increase power.

A higher revving engine also permits the use of a numerically higher gear ratio to multiply the engine’s torque all the way down the drag strip. Let’s say an engine that produces 1,000 horsepower at 7,000 rpm is paired with a 4.56:1 rearend gear ratio. If this engine is then modified to produce 1,000 horsepower at 8,000 rpm, it can now pull a 4.88:1 or 5:14:1 rearend gear without running out of rpm before reaching the finish line. The numerically higher gear ratio gives the engine a mechanical advantage by multiplying its torque by a greater number to accelerate the car faster – in effect, it has a longer lever to move the mass.

I learned this lesson many years ago when I started drag racing. I raced my little 302cid Camaro against 426 Hemis and 440cid Max Wedge Mopars. The big-inch engines had thunderous low-end power, but my high-revving 302 with a 4.88:1 rear gear would just kill them because they were all done at 5,800 rpm. My small-block had much less torque and horsepower, but I could multiply the power it had with a steeper gear ratio. The same principle applies to racing a Pro Stock or a Top Sportsman dragster. By turning more rpm, we can use a greater gear ratio to produce more mechanical advantage to accelerate the car.

There are limits to engine speed, of course. Higher rpm increases parasitic losses from friction and windage. The stability of the valvetrain also restricts engine rpm. However, with the technology developed in NASCAR and in Pro Stock, racers are learning how to build engines that operate reliably at high rpm. Research and development on valve materials, springs, rocker arms, and pushrods are now being applied to serious sportsman drag racing engines. In fact, I wish that I had some of the parts that we now install in our high-horsepower sportsman engines for our Pro Stock program a few years ago!

While increasing rpm is generally a good thing for a racing engine, it also puts more responsibility on the owner. A high-rpm combination requires more vigilance and more maintenance than a low-rpm motor. It’s important to check the valve lash frequently and to look for early warning signs such as weak or broken valve springs. Neglecting these parts in a high-rpm racing engine can produce some very expensive problems.

Raising an engine’s operating range also requires complementary changes in the drivetrain and chassis. A high-rpm sportsman engine really needs a high-stall torque converter to realize its potential. With an automatic transmission, the engine speed should ideally drop 1,000 to 1,300 rpm after a gear change. For example, if the converter stalls at 6,700 rpm, the engine should be shifted at around 8,000 rpm. Shifting this engine at 7,000 rpm would simply put the engine back on the converter, causing the converter to operate inefficiently and wasting horsepower by heating the transmission fluid.

I’m excited about the emerging trend toward fast sportsman drag racing. I enjoy working with customers who want to go fast because it gives me an opportunity to deliver the benefits of our Pro Stock R&D to other racers. Not every racer wants or needs a high-rpm engine, but if the goal is to have a fast car, raising the redline is a proven approach.
 
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 02:26 PM
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There's a web site around here were a certain Darin Morgan hangs out and you wouldn't believe the little tid bits I've learned.

Did you know that they have a unit that they plug into there engine before each run that super cools the motor down to the 55/60 degree range before they start the motor. And when the car leaves the line the engine is'nt over 100 degrees. Heat kills power. Dale
 
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 03:03 PM
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Who can tell us how much of that information applies to a street driven 4800 lb truck with a redline under 6000 rpm.....

Doug
 

Last edited by Silver_2000; Dec 13, 2004 at 03:14 PM.
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 05:20 PM
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From: Fl/Tenn
Originally posted by Bad as L
There's a web site around here were a certain Darin Morgan hangs out and you wouldn't believe the little tid bits I've learned.

Did you know that they have a unit that they plug into there engine before each run that super cools the motor down to the 55/60 degree range before they start the motor. And when the car leaves the line the engine is'nt over 100 degrees. Heat kills power. Dale
Ah yes, speedtalk.com, probably the best tech forum on the web. I've got 2 sets of heads by Darin and they are awesome. Can't wait to try out his new 12 degree 'Raptors' this spring.
 
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by Silver_2000_!
Who can tell us how much of that information applies to a street driven 4800 lb truck with a redline under 6000 rpm.....

Doug
Actually, all of it (maybe not the part of about pushrods). If you're truck could breathe over 6k rpm, it would be much faster. This may seem like a radical idea, but some people may actually be interested in hearing ideas from the greatest engineering minds in motorsports about what it takes to go fast. Sorry for trying to provide tech info beyond what plugs to use and where the cheapest place to buy F1's is. Back to your regular scheduled programing...how do I change my fuel filter?
 
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 07:55 PM
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I know rdy2rac was shifting in the 6000 rpm range...
 
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 08:38 PM
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I had a pushrod smallblock that turned 8,000 rpm. It made less power at 5,000 than it did at 7,800. It was in a 70 model chevy blazer. It all depends on how the engine is built. That one was built for rpm power, I have also had low rpm high torque engines. 383 stroker for example. Makes alot of tq down low, with a low redline. De-stroked 400, or 377, makes assloads of hp up top, but not much down low.

Just thought I would add something.
 
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by rscoleman
Actually, all of it (maybe not the part of about pushrods). If you're truck could breathe over 6k rpm, it would be much faster. This may seem like a radical idea, but some people may actually be interested in hearing ideas from the greatest engineering minds in motorsports about what it takes to go fast. Sorry for trying to provide tech info beyond what plugs to use and where the cheapest place to buy F1's is. Back to your regular scheduled programing...how do I change my fuel filter?
I was hoping someone could take the information that applies to 8000 rpm Prostock cars and tell me how it applies to my truck. Which goes back to how can it help me with my street driven truck ? If it cant, then fine it cant

The reason I asked the question was that 99% of the people here have motors that are NOT built to rev over 6k. So the information is interesting but as far as my feeble mind can tell it has little if any appication to the vast majority of mod motors here.

Having said that if someone were to apply that information and build a 12k rpm motor that fits in out trucks then great - its making more sense all the time.

But as I read the original post it was about revving the engine another 1 or 2000 rpm ad changing the gears to take advantage of the change. It was specifically and seemingly only applicable to the 1/4 mile. -

If you stowed the attitude and actually answered the question you might get more people paying attention.
 
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 12:32 AM
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Can you imagine what our engines could do if they ran up to 8,000 rpm's? Puts a smile on my face just to think about it.
 
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 01:13 AM
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I found the original post to be very informative, especially since it came from a place where I'd never have seen it. I've long looked at the torque vs. horsepower curves and sought to make as much torque as I could as far down as I could. But the post has certainly given me both a valid and also different perspective.

As the post points out, increasing the rpms is analogous to adding bost, because it increases the effective displacement. While boost does not increase the parasitic losses from friction as higher rpms do, there is certainly a power loss in driving the blower. So, if I'd like to increase my power by 10%, the theory of the post is that I don't necessarily have to increase boost by 10%, which puts the poor Eaton even more off the efficiency map. Instead, I have to determine what changes need to be made to at 10% to my effective RPM range. Doing so will also, according to the post, increase my trap speed and lower my ET strictly by virtue of being able to use more gear - the longer lever theory.
Now, add the additional power gained by the effective 10% displacement increase and things get even better.

At least in my case, it has gotten me to think outside of the 5400 rpm box.
 
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 04:16 AM
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Very interesting read rscoleman, thanks for the article. It never hurts to learn something new Doug, people asking about the clunk and friggin 2" drop shackles is getting pretty old. :santa:
 

Last edited by FLBigDog; Dec 14, 2004 at 04:21 AM.
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by Silver_2000_!
I was hoping someone could take the information that applies to 8000 rpm Prostock cars and tell me how it applies to my truck. Which goes back to how can it help me with my street driven truck ? If it cant, then fine it cant.
If you stowed the attitude and actually answered the question you might get more people paying attention.
You drag race your truck don't you? There are many here who are building performance engines. Seems to me the information presented applies to anyone interested in engine building/drag racing.

We know you've taken a lot of crap from here but if you got rid of that chip on your shoulder for the FL bashers, you'd see the value in the thread.
 
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 09:54 AM
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Raising engine speed is analogous to supercharging or turbocharging a motor; the goal is to increase the volume of air and fuel that moves through the engine. The airflow is increased with a forced induction system by pressurizing the intake system; in a naturally aspirated engine, the airflow is increased by raising rpm. If done correctly, both approaches will increase power.

I think here is where Doug is coming from. Our trucks go the supercharged route to stay streetable and move the weight effectively. I don't know if I would break parts on these motors trying to get the RPM's up. Trying to use both methods on the same street motor would seem to be detrimental.

But, you could pull the supercharger off, go 4V heads (cobraR), raise the compression, and get those RPM's up to make mad HP. Then get a 5000 RPM stall to get these sleds off the line. That would seem to take this advice and put it use on a mod motor.

Our answer seems to be boost and gas as the big boys have shown. My .02.

BD
 
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by unclemole
You drag race your truck don't you? There are many here who are building performance engines. Seems to me the information presented applies to anyone interested in engine building/drag racing.

We know you've taken a lot of crap from here but if you got rid of that chip on your shoulder for the FL bashers, you'd see the value in the thread.
This is my post
Who can tell us how much of that information applies to a street driven 4800 lb truck with a redline under 6000 rpm.....

Doug
LOL - How is this connected to anything in florida ? The florida penal colony thing was 3 or 4 years ago - Time to move on I did a longtime ago.

Back to my post - I was hoping someone could take that generic performance information and help make it apply to what we do here, and that is automatically assumed to be a bad thing. I think is others that have a chip ... I was just looking for information.

Im looking for information and all I get in return is attitude ...

I was looking for Information like ...
  • How can a 5.4 mod motor be safely made to turn an extra 1000-2000 rpm ???
  • Who has successfully run higher than a 4.10 gear in a Lightning ?
  • What gear are the current top performers running ?
  • What kinds of things can they do with raising shift points and gear ratios to improve performance.
  • How can that be done safely ?
  • and finally how can that apply to a truck that is also street driven as 98% of the trucks here are..

There are dozens of Rscoleman posts where he puts down anyone who doesnt agree with him or understand his approach. At least he is consistent - Its not just me he takes shots at he will talk down to anyone.

Doug

Edit - the censor got me I guess I left the f out of shift
 
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 10:09 AM
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From everything I've read the piston speeds in the 5.4L motor are very high to begin with. That's one reason you see them in low-revving "truck" applications.

The exception would be the new GT, but even then its only a 6500rpm motor, and I'm sure it utilizes a very light internal rotating assembly. And 6500rpm isn't _that_ high anyway.

The article is a good read, nonetheless, and informative. Like I've always said, if max TQ wins races, then we'd all be putting turbo-diesels in our trucks.
 
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