FINALLY! Extrude Honed 5.4PI Heads Flowbenched! Airflow numbers inside
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From: Richmond, VA, USA
FINALLY! Extrude Honed 5.4PI Heads Flowbenched! Airflow numbers inside
Hi guys, some of you (not to mention myself) have been waiting quite awhile for these numbers. let me say a few things first.
first of all, I have always been curious about the extrude hone process, it sounds like an excellent idea in theory. I have always wanted to try it.
the following is what I think about my extrude hone experience. unfortunately I didn't write anything down, and frankly, my memory $ucks, so some of the important details are fuzzy. you'll see what I mean.
anyway here goes nothing:
1. I contacted Rick at extrude hone and asked him what type of results they had been getting on the 4.6/5.4 PI heads. He said that they were getting "pretty good" results, but that I should not expect any "huge" gains. he guesstimated that I might see 20hp out of doing these heads. (Let me say that I appreciate him being honest and forthcoming about this info. I'd much rather have a business give me an honest/realistic projection BEFORE I spend a bunch of money with them and then let me decide what I want to do. instead, he could have lied or exaggerated, and promised me the MONSTER GAINS and HP out the wazoo, then after I paid for the service and saw minimal gains, I would feel disappointed and cheated?)
2. I decided to give it a shot anyway and document everything (well the flow numbers at least). So, I bought two new bare '03 updated PI heads from my Ford dealership.
3. I had them flowbenched with stock valves
4. I then sent the new heads to extrude hone with instructions to perform their Stage 2 service. This is the standard powerflow service plus gasket matching. I included intake and exhaust gaskets in with the heads as instructed on their website. If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) it was supposed to cost something like $900 for the stage 1 and then about another $80 per head for the gasket match and stage 2.
5. after waiting for 3 weeks, I called extrude hone to check on the status of my heads. their website says to allow 2-3 weeks for processing of aluminum heads. I was told that they hadn't been done yet and that they were scheduled to be done on the following week.
6. during this time, I went to Las Vegas and met Rick in person at SEMA 2003. nice guy and nice display I will say that IN MY OPINION, the heads that were on display looked alot nicer or I should say more thoroughly processed, than the heads that I eventually got back from EH)
7. I wait another week or two and give them a call back and am told one of my heads was done and the second one was on the machine "as we speak". I was told that there was a change in the bolt holes or something on the new castings that required them to fabricate a new plate or something. (again, sorry it's been a while and my memory is horrible.)
8. after being without them for approximately 6+ weeks, I receive my heads back from extrude hone and they look very nice!
but there is a problem, they ARE NOT gasket matched by any means. my idea of gasket matched means that the ports are opened up to match the gasket opening. my intake and exhaust port openings are barely if ANY larger than stock? I can see some evidence of what I call a "hand grind clean up job" on one wall of all of the intake ports
another problem, although NOT extrude hone's fault: I shipped the heads to them in the original Ford boxes with the part numbers and the ford foam packing material. I got the heads back in new boxes. this is only a problem because I bought my heads brand new as bare parts and they had a core charge on them from Ford. $150 PER HEAD. normally $250 PER HEAD, but I'm an employee! here's the kicker, Ford WILL NOT ACCEPT any core heads that are not in THE ORIGINAL BOXES! with the part numbers on them and the bar codes etc. so there goes $300 out the window! NOTE: again, this is NOT extrude hone's fault, as I did not specifically ask them to ship my heads back to me in the original boxes.
9. I check my credit card bill and to my surprise I was only billed something like $782 now I'm not complaining because I was expecting a bill over $1000 dollars, but I still don't understand what's going on. I go to the extrude hone website only to find that the "price list" has been removed from the website alltogether? now I'm really confused. apparently extrude hone just decided not to "stage2" process my heads, but they didn't bother to notify me and let me know that they weren't going to do what I had specifically requested. but on the other hand it appears as though they did at least attempt some sort of hand grinding or opening up of the intake runners, but certainly not to the point of a gasket match!
10. I take them back to the machine shop for further flow bench testing.
11. the machine shop takes it's sweet time (next week, tomorrow, tomorrow, out of town, next week, etc.)
12. I finally get them to tell me that they are finished. so I drive over to get some numbers. over the phone they tell me that the intake didn't improve much but that the exhaust picked up quite a bit.
13. fast forward to TODAY, I have some results.
here is what you have been waiting for:
CFM@28"
Valve Lift: .100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .550 .600"
box stock
intake: 55 102 138 164 174 178 180
exhaust: 52 90 122 142 152 156 156
after extrude hone
intake: 55 102 144 174 188 190 194
exhaust: 53 98 136 164 180 182 186
after extrude hone & 1mm oversize valves
intake: 51 96 136 170 196 207 207
exhaust: 50 96 140 170 182 184 186
as you can see the exhaust side picked up as much as 30cfm with the extrude hone powerflow process alone.
interestingly, the low lift numbers suffered with the larger valves?
and while the exhaust side was almost unaffected by the valve change, while the intake gained as much as 17cfms.
overall I am pleased. I know that I don't have the highest cfm flowing heads available, but I set out to try the extrude hone process to satisfy my own curiosity and document the results for everyone. I've heard lots of people argue back and forth about the extrude hone process versus hand or cnc porting. unfortunately most of the people I hear arguing have no factual information to support their arguements. I wish I was doing a cylinder head swap only. I still would like to believe that my torque numbers will increase or at the very least NOT SUFFER from the "hogging out" of the runners that most of the high flow cnc port jobs are using.
unfortunately I can't offer accurate before and after dyno numbers because I'll be adding cams, changing the compression slightly, and adding other mods at the same time that I install the heads.
as far as a price/performance comparison to CNC heads, Fox Lake lists this info:
again, the extrude hone job cost me around $780 plus around $1000 for the bare heads (would've been less except for that darn core charge).
teamjdm.com lists cnc'd heads for $2995, I don't know if that is assembled with valves and cams or not.
I can't find JLP or PSP heads on their sites. BTW, the new site freshening looks good Sal! it was due for an update.
REM lists theirs for $2375 with valves and springs.
not trying to down anybody or boost anybody up, just offering some comparison info.
so let the discussion begin as to the value of and the results I documented from the EXTRUDE HONE process.
later,
chris
P.S. sorry for the long post.
first of all, I have always been curious about the extrude hone process, it sounds like an excellent idea in theory. I have always wanted to try it.
the following is what I think about my extrude hone experience. unfortunately I didn't write anything down, and frankly, my memory $ucks, so some of the important details are fuzzy. you'll see what I mean.
anyway here goes nothing:
1. I contacted Rick at extrude hone and asked him what type of results they had been getting on the 4.6/5.4 PI heads. He said that they were getting "pretty good" results, but that I should not expect any "huge" gains. he guesstimated that I might see 20hp out of doing these heads. (Let me say that I appreciate him being honest and forthcoming about this info. I'd much rather have a business give me an honest/realistic projection BEFORE I spend a bunch of money with them and then let me decide what I want to do. instead, he could have lied or exaggerated, and promised me the MONSTER GAINS and HP out the wazoo, then after I paid for the service and saw minimal gains, I would feel disappointed and cheated?)
2. I decided to give it a shot anyway and document everything (well the flow numbers at least). So, I bought two new bare '03 updated PI heads from my Ford dealership.
3. I had them flowbenched with stock valves
4. I then sent the new heads to extrude hone with instructions to perform their Stage 2 service. This is the standard powerflow service plus gasket matching. I included intake and exhaust gaskets in with the heads as instructed on their website. If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) it was supposed to cost something like $900 for the stage 1 and then about another $80 per head for the gasket match and stage 2.
5. after waiting for 3 weeks, I called extrude hone to check on the status of my heads. their website says to allow 2-3 weeks for processing of aluminum heads. I was told that they hadn't been done yet and that they were scheduled to be done on the following week.
6. during this time, I went to Las Vegas and met Rick in person at SEMA 2003. nice guy and nice display I will say that IN MY OPINION, the heads that were on display looked alot nicer or I should say more thoroughly processed, than the heads that I eventually got back from EH)
7. I wait another week or two and give them a call back and am told one of my heads was done and the second one was on the machine "as we speak". I was told that there was a change in the bolt holes or something on the new castings that required them to fabricate a new plate or something. (again, sorry it's been a while and my memory is horrible.)
8. after being without them for approximately 6+ weeks, I receive my heads back from extrude hone and they look very nice!
but there is a problem, they ARE NOT gasket matched by any means. my idea of gasket matched means that the ports are opened up to match the gasket opening. my intake and exhaust port openings are barely if ANY larger than stock? I can see some evidence of what I call a "hand grind clean up job" on one wall of all of the intake ports
another problem, although NOT extrude hone's fault: I shipped the heads to them in the original Ford boxes with the part numbers and the ford foam packing material. I got the heads back in new boxes. this is only a problem because I bought my heads brand new as bare parts and they had a core charge on them from Ford. $150 PER HEAD. normally $250 PER HEAD, but I'm an employee! here's the kicker, Ford WILL NOT ACCEPT any core heads that are not in THE ORIGINAL BOXES! with the part numbers on them and the bar codes etc. so there goes $300 out the window! NOTE: again, this is NOT extrude hone's fault, as I did not specifically ask them to ship my heads back to me in the original boxes.
9. I check my credit card bill and to my surprise I was only billed something like $782 now I'm not complaining because I was expecting a bill over $1000 dollars, but I still don't understand what's going on. I go to the extrude hone website only to find that the "price list" has been removed from the website alltogether? now I'm really confused. apparently extrude hone just decided not to "stage2" process my heads, but they didn't bother to notify me and let me know that they weren't going to do what I had specifically requested. but on the other hand it appears as though they did at least attempt some sort of hand grinding or opening up of the intake runners, but certainly not to the point of a gasket match!
10. I take them back to the machine shop for further flow bench testing.
11. the machine shop takes it's sweet time (next week, tomorrow, tomorrow, out of town, next week, etc.)
12. I finally get them to tell me that they are finished. so I drive over to get some numbers. over the phone they tell me that the intake didn't improve much but that the exhaust picked up quite a bit.
13. fast forward to TODAY, I have some results.
here is what you have been waiting for:
CFM@28"
Valve Lift: .100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .550 .600"
box stock
intake: 55 102 138 164 174 178 180
exhaust: 52 90 122 142 152 156 156
after extrude hone
intake: 55 102 144 174 188 190 194
exhaust: 53 98 136 164 180 182 186
after extrude hone & 1mm oversize valves
intake: 51 96 136 170 196 207 207
exhaust: 50 96 140 170 182 184 186
as you can see the exhaust side picked up as much as 30cfm with the extrude hone powerflow process alone.
interestingly, the low lift numbers suffered with the larger valves?
and while the exhaust side was almost unaffected by the valve change, while the intake gained as much as 17cfms.
overall I am pleased. I know that I don't have the highest cfm flowing heads available, but I set out to try the extrude hone process to satisfy my own curiosity and document the results for everyone. I've heard lots of people argue back and forth about the extrude hone process versus hand or cnc porting. unfortunately most of the people I hear arguing have no factual information to support their arguements. I wish I was doing a cylinder head swap only. I still would like to believe that my torque numbers will increase or at the very least NOT SUFFER from the "hogging out" of the runners that most of the high flow cnc port jobs are using.
unfortunately I can't offer accurate before and after dyno numbers because I'll be adding cams, changing the compression slightly, and adding other mods at the same time that I install the heads.
as far as a price/performance comparison to CNC heads, Fox Lake lists this info:
Stock unported '99- up P.I. castings flow a max of 163 cfm intake and 150 cfm exhaust on our bench @ .500"
Fox Lake Stage 1 ported P.I. heads flow 200 cfm intake and
182 cfm exhaust @ .500" !
Stage 1 porting labor is $599 with valve job included
Fox Lake Stage 2 P.I. heads flow a whopping 223 cfm intake and
195 cfm exhaust @ .500" with Mod Max valves!
Stage 2 porting labor is $900 with valve job included
Fox Lake Stage 1 ported P.I. heads flow 200 cfm intake and
182 cfm exhaust @ .500" !
Stage 1 porting labor is $599 with valve job included
Fox Lake Stage 2 P.I. heads flow a whopping 223 cfm intake and
195 cfm exhaust @ .500" with Mod Max valves!
Stage 2 porting labor is $900 with valve job included
teamjdm.com lists cnc'd heads for $2995, I don't know if that is assembled with valves and cams or not.
I can't find JLP or PSP heads on their sites. BTW, the new site freshening looks good Sal! it was due for an update.
REM lists theirs for $2375 with valves and springs.
not trying to down anybody or boost anybody up, just offering some comparison info.
so let the discussion begin as to the value of and the results I documented from the EXTRUDE HONE process.
later,
chris
P.S. sorry for the long post.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,620
Likes: 1
From: Central Joisey
Nice post 
. I think it is probably what you had expected for results. So basically you spent $1800 plus shipping both ways to Extrude Hone + the cost of the valves and other hardware + installation at the local machine shop + flow testing. What did you spend as a total amount? (Trying to compare the $2995 or $2375 prices for turn key sets).
. I think it is probably what you had expected for results. So basically you spent $1800 plus shipping both ways to Extrude Hone + the cost of the valves and other hardware + installation at the local machine shop + flow testing. What did you spend as a total amount? (Trying to compare the $2995 or $2375 prices for turn key sets).
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 337
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From: Victoria BC Canada
Wow Chris, thanks for taking the time to document and relay us all that information. No vender bashing or butt kissing. Just straight up info with pricing. I really appreciate the effort. Alot of people wont take that kind of time. Now we have that hard info we can keep on file. I LOVE this site.
Ray
Ray
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 7,030
Likes: 3
From: WINDSOR, ONTARIO, CANADA
HI!... About 7 months ago I bought a set of FOX LAKE prepped heads from MIKE TROYER in a PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS package. If I remember correctly I paid $3100(U.S) for them. They came with :
- "03" 5.4 "P.I" aluminum cylinder heads
- CROWER stage 2 billets cams
- FOX LAKE stage 2 CNC port job
- FERREA oversized one piece sodium filled undercut S/S valves
- 3 angle valve job
- new hardened valve seats
- new bronze valve guides
- new FORD roller followers
- new FORD lifters
- COMP CAMS heavy duty valve springs, locks, and retainers.
- TITANIUM 8 thread spark plug inserts
I'm happy with them. Mike had a few other "spiecal" things done to increase flow a bit more than what FOX LAKE advertises. Here's a few pics :
Before the CNC porting :
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75387.jpg
After the CNC porting :
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75315.jpg
It actually fits perfect to the intake gasket, but I couldn't hold the gasket flat and take the pic.
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75374.jpg
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75373.jpg
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75376.jpg
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75375.jpg
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75377.jpg
- "03" 5.4 "P.I" aluminum cylinder heads
- CROWER stage 2 billets cams
- FOX LAKE stage 2 CNC port job
- FERREA oversized one piece sodium filled undercut S/S valves
- 3 angle valve job
- new hardened valve seats
- new bronze valve guides
- new FORD roller followers
- new FORD lifters
- COMP CAMS heavy duty valve springs, locks, and retainers.
- TITANIUM 8 thread spark plug inserts
I'm happy with them. Mike had a few other "spiecal" things done to increase flow a bit more than what FOX LAKE advertises. Here's a few pics :
Before the CNC porting :
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75387.jpg
After the CNC porting :
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75315.jpg
It actually fits perfect to the intake gasket, but I couldn't hold the gasket flat and take the pic.
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75374.jpg
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75373.jpg
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75376.jpg
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75375.jpg
https://www.f150online.com/galleries...4860-75377.jpg
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,051
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From: Wilton, Ca.
Why do these heads on the Lightnings flow so poorly? You put even the ported numbers up as compared to a stock small block Chevy head and they would be considered dismal. No bash to anyone involved, just wondering is all. A decent head for a small block would be in the 250-260 range intake at .550 and 180 exh. Ported ones would be much better.
Jody
Jody
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 7,030
Likes: 3
From: WINDSOR, ONTARIO, CANADA
HI!... You must also remember that the older ford small blocks had a 4 inch bore which allowed a larger piston and more room for larger valves. The 4.6/5.4/6.8 modular blocks only have a 3.552 bore which limits the size of the valves that can be used. This has a HUGE effect on how much air flow can be pushed through the intake/exhaust runners. To make it simple : Small valves = small flow #'s.