From what I understand a record is made in the L's firmware when the last time the firmware was altered in any fashion. "time since last reflash" This I have been told by two SVT tech friends. Another words if they/Ford don't have record of an authorized Ford representative fooling with the computer then they look at you and lets say your Predator or a valid reason for firmware access/reflash.. My guess it will be short order when Ford addresses the Predator issues! Anyone using the Predator must take into consideration they may very well and probably will have Ford warranty problems related to firmware/computer tampering.

Also, for those that think they can use the Predator on more then one vehicle at a time well, think again!!
In essence it is in a way married to your one truck. While it does not go by your trucks vin#, you can only use it on one truck at a time..... You would have to return one programmed truck back to its original firmware programming from the Predator, BEFORE you could then use that Predator on another vehicle and vice versa!

I'm not saying the Predator isn't the best thing since sliced bread BUT you need to know that there are lets say issues! Caution about all the sales hype and misleading bull**** floating around!

 

Do you mean like an after market computer chip? Oh no!

 

anyone can reflash the computer, with or without the preditor. I don't see why or how ford would care, unless the firmware somehow states it was "flashed by preditor"??

-Mike

P.S. unless somehow reflashing the computer voids a warranty?

 

Actually, the Predator IS vehicle dependant, if you use custom files from a CMR tuner and in that case, you can only use it on one vehicle. Once it downloads your factory file, it recognizes the PATS code and module ID, and automatically selects the proper set of progams for your model year. If you get custom programs loaded onto it buy a CMR (ChipMatser Revolution) tuner, you must send your stock file to the tuner, so that he can build the new program off it, so that it contains your PATS info.

As for warranties, on the dealer level I don't see it being a big deal. There is no way for a Ford tech to know anything specific about your calibration, like any kind of "time stamp" or anything of the like. I've worked with the NGS, SBDS, and WDS for many years, and have never seen anything of that nature. The only issue may be if the WDS doesn't recognize the calibration, it may show that. That all depends on how the Predator re-writes the VID block info, and honestly, I don't know wht the WDS will see till I try it.

Needless to say, all you need to do is load your ORIGINAL calibration back into the PCM, which the Predator stores for you, and then nothing can be refuted.

 

Personally I think the Predator is a terrific tool! A terrific tool but it can be a tool that will bring major headaches to those that use this tool and have no clue on what they are doing. I myself realize what I just said but I'm sure there are lots of teens, young adults that will turn up the wick so to speak with the Predator and end up with a very damaged vehicle. One guy, Bob, said " think billarf's point is that the Predator shouldn't be implied/marketed as an undetectable method of altering the stock programming." Well, Bob zeroed in on one of the things that bothered me long before the Predator finally hit the market and that is a vendor or two are misleading people by telling them Ford will not be able to detect that you fooled with your vehicles PCM if you use the Predator. Of course there are many of us to include myself that would jump high and buy the Predator if this was true but fact is nobody at this point knows how Ford will deal with Predator users. My guess is Ford will quickly come to the table and start voiding warrantees on those they find tampering by using the Predator. I feel ALL vendors of the Predator should in fact mention to all perspective purchasers that indeed Ford may void their warranty if a Predator is used just like Ford will void a warranty if a truck is chipped. In the last few days at least two vendors on these boards have lead people to believe otherwise. One vendor just posted that geeeeez, a Ford tech/"on the dealer level" would probably not know BUT it is not the Ford tech you really have to worry about it is the FORD rep that shows up when the dealer calls him because you blew up your vehicle. That same vendor said there are no telltale tales signs that firmware was flashed and that is absolute bull****! Again, ALL the vendors just should come to the point- breach the turth and not mislead and say ..... fact is the dealer, a Ford inspector, etc. may very well void your warranty if you use a Predator on said vehicle. Vendors should be 100% honest and not mislead or word things so buyers THINK they are safe from warranty voiding by Ford. Will close by saying read back through all the posts from vendors here posting about the Predator. Only one vendor stated right at the top of his Predator speeel that the Predator might just void your warranty...

 

Will pay devils advocate here but all that buy their Predator from you will hopefully copy the post you have made here. SOooo, when Ford voids their warranty because of Predator use then the truck owner you sold the Predator to can seek you out and have you pay to have his/her engine replaced as you mislead them. I will step up to the plate and say that not me, you nor any Predator vendor knows that Predator use will not flat out be figured out by a Ford inspector and a warranty be denied. My feeling is ALL you vendors should just be upfront and say you chance warranty voiding by use of the Predator! It is the honest thing to do. To TILT the Predator speeeeels so the buyer is not told this is not right and the vendor may just be held accountable! My guess is even the manufacturer of the Predator will not step out on that limb and say what some of the vendors are saying in regard to Ford not being able to SEE the Predator. Will close by saying this is not a personal attack on you or any particular vendor of the Predator.

 

Billarf, I never said the Predator would not void your warranty, nor have I given the impression that I would sell the Predator under that pretense. A fair statement would be, "out of all the PCM enhancing devices, the Predator reflash would be the least detectable". I am also curious how you "know" for a fact that once the the factory calibration has been loaded back in, somebody could tell. I was a dealer tech for many years, and am very aware of what the Ford Field Service Engineers look at (for FYI, Ford "reps" are not qualified to diagnose anything, they are more or less paperwork pushers, but they do have power to make decisions about your warranty). I've been involved with FSE's looking into possible "chip" related issues, and have never seen one hook up anything other than dealer scan tools. I do agree with your crusade to make people aware of your point, but I also think there is alot of "overparranoia" out there too.

 

This is part of what I wrote...
"I will step up to the plate and say that not me, you nor any Predator vendor knows that Predator use will not flat out be figured out by a Ford inspector and a warranty be denied. "

WE dont know !! and vendors need to make those perspective buyers with warranty voiding concerns very aware of this issue.

Oh........... "overparranoia" yea, that you will blow your pricey engine and you will have to pay for it for yourself as your warranty has been voided by Ford. Yup, good reason for "overparranoia" I think!! As far as a crusade........ well I would not want my young son to be mislead by someone selling snakeoil and such...........

Will end by saking you a vendor what is the manufacturer of the Predator saying in regard to this issue??

 

I've not seen the manufacturer claim the Predator will not void your warranty, which I why "I" have not made that same claim. Hell, I don't even sell the damn things yet . I'm just trying to put forth some helpful info on them so people have a better knowledge for when we DO sell them.

 

If the Predator has anything to do with the engine being blown, then it is only fair that the owner pays the bill.

I am more concerned about annoying little warranty issues being denied because the is evidence of non-stock tuning being uploaded at some time in the past.

 

Sal, I know you realize what I am saying and that my intent is not malicious. Anyway, here is a quote from one vendor who is agressively jobbing, hawking, selling the Predator. Sal, is this a misleading statement??

"Using the Predator, you will NOT have to worry about any physical warranty terminating evidence like a chip poses."

 

I think that is a very valid statement. It means what is says. Using the Predator eliminates the physical evidence that a chip shows (removed coating and scraped terminals). When an FSE is sent to a dealer to check for a chip related warranty issue, what they will do is remove the PCM, open it up, and look for a scraped PCB. If there are no signs of a chip, that's pretty much the extend of the "investigation". The only way I would ever think it would be taken farther, is if the person in question is known on the internet and Ford has printouts of them stating them admitting to using a reflash device.

 

Sal, will close by saying IF I were to buy the Predator it would probably be from you! You are a fellow New Yorker, you are a respected tuner and known to be an aok to do business with. IF and when the day comes when it is a FACT that Ford can not see Predator use then I will be a Predator buyer. Tim Skelton's comment here mirrors my concern. Tim said "I am more concerned about annoying little warranty issues being denied because the is evidence of non-stock tuning being uploaded at some time in the past."

 

I'm not saying the statement might not be valid BUT rather that it is misleading considering the limited info we have on this topic today. WE really do not know.... Physical evidence could be in the form of a checksum error, unauthorized non-factory reflash based on recent flash activity.. Just to many variables that WE are not clear on. I have burned eproms / flashed many many times over the last 10 or so years and there are telltale signs. WHO really know how far Ford will go when the Predator starts costing them thousands and thousands of dollars. Again vendors should be saying "Caveat emptor" let the buyer be aware that their warranty might just get voided just as if you chipped. For a vendor to beat around the bush saying no physical evidence, etc. is misleading and they may just one day be held accountable for selling a product with such misleading promotional sales info.

 

billarf,

Sal is correct about the "Time Stamp." There is no date when the PCM was flashed. I myself have reflashed 04 pre-production Mach 1's at Dearborn Asy Plant.

I used a NGS with a special calibration card and NGS cable to refalsh a new calibration in a PCM. All I did was enter in the the last 8 of the vin, go thru the proceedure and hit trigger. I didn't enter a date to say when I reflashed a new calibration.

The PCM's are flashed by the supplier. They are then sent to the plant for installation. That's it. Ford would now have to go re-release a new PCM with the ability to detect a reflash on a PCM using the predator....

First, Ford will have to buy a Predator and then test it and see what it's limitations are. Then see what is the most common mistake made by the users and the engine damage that occures. Once they have played detective then they will know what to look for at the dealers.

Don't plan on them actually spending the $$$ to make changes to the current PCM just for the Predator. Their resources in the engineering community are spread thin. You can bet they will have something implemented when the Gen 3 Lightning and 05 Mustang hit's the road. Their PCM's will NOT have access ports for chips.

I'd write on our engineering pcm's with a marker of what calibration I installed. If the PCM is not tagged. I would plug an NGS in or use our ATI Calibration Equipment to see what calibration is in a PCM.

As for the buyers of the predator. It's buyer beware when it comes to changing the engine function of their vehicle. If some of the customers don't understand the whole calibration concept after reading the directions. Then don't proceed until you do have a clear understanding. Other than that. I think it's great tool. I might pick one up and check it out...