You're right XLT...lotsa great posts on this one...most rational and well thought out (unusual when this subject is discussed anywhere!).

I think you're right - 9/11 was not about US support for Israel, or more accurately not ALL about that. It was about much more.

US Foreign Policy around the world, and especially in the Middle East is the chief reason.

Hypocrisy is the word that leaps to mind - not just the notion of going to war with Iraq over a UN resolution and precious little REAL evidence, while Israel ignores UN resolutions and (just hours ago) fires missiles at cars on crowded streets (wounding 40 civilians, including 15 kids and missing the bad guy).

There's hypocrisy across the region - we support the governments (and fund some of them) of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others. All three countries are repressive dictatorships or ruled by Royal families - they torture, kill and crush any opposition.

But hey, they're useful so they're friends of the US (remember, nearly ALL of the 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia!).

So when the US says "Israel is right, and Iraq needs 'regime change'", then a lot of people in that neck of the woods say "Who the hell are YOU to say who rules where???"

What would we think if, say Mexico or Russia or wherever said "You Americans have nasty weapons and a bad 'tude, and we think we might just change your government for you!"

I'm not supporting anyone's view, and am totally patriotic. I'm just explaining how those dudes feel.

They also say "Change the government in Iraq, then who's next? Zimbabwe? Iran? Where does it stop? Who gave the US the Sheriff of the World badge?"

That is what they say, and that is why they're mad at us. Believe it or not, they (generally speaking) are NOT jealous of our way of live and our material wealth...hey, those Saudi dudes are richer than we'll ever be!).

And the reason we were all so surprised is we don't take a moment's interest in what's happening out there in the big wide world...and our media doesn't help inform us. so all of this comes as a shock to us when really we might just have been able to see it coming if we'd had a better media...

Other reasons too, but I'm getting long winded here!

 

cpadpl,

Some of us have lives other than f150online, ya know! Been busy taking care of a big problem. Don't ever build a house with computer automation unless you're willing to deal with the glitches that causes hundreds of lights, 5 zones of a/c, pool, fountains, gates, security systems, audio-video systems, and the spa to go haywire. Damned, I know I'm missing something. It'll come to me but my brain's shorted. Oh yeah, a house that's this new and this expensive should not have garbage disposals falling off and letting water leak into the pump room causing the digital controller to go nuts and taking the rest of the system with it. It would also help if the tenants would notice that the disposal isn't there anymore... Oh well, that's why they pay a big security deposit.

Israel, under the leadership of Sharon, will never back down. Israel will always look for any excuse to attack Palestine and kill, knowing the Palestinians will retaliate which just gives them an excuse to hit back again. It's a stupid and deadly game they're playing and the fact that we back Israel gives them the ***** to keep doing it. Sharon is itching for Iraq to scud Israel because he'll let loose with everything Israel has knowing any conflict of this scale would drag us into it behind Israel.

If we are sending Israel $11 billion a year, we need to start scaling that back and putting the savings into intelligence. Offer somebody $1 million and you'll get intelligence. Offer somebody $100 million to knock off somebody and there's a good chance it will get done.

As far as the 9/11/01 attacks are concerned, our support of Israel is a part of the total picture because it influences our foreign policy in the area. The Middle East is not jealous of our way of life. Shoot, the citizens of the oil rich countries are better off than many of our own citizens. The Middle East is, however, weary of our involvment in their politics. They resent our trying to tell them what is best for them. They resent our trying to make our values their values. They resent us because we are ugly Americans who have little respect for them and THEIR way of life.

If we attack Iraq without the blessing of Iraq's neighbors, I have a feeling that what we experienced on 9/11/01 will be tame compared to what will happen when we piiss off the terrorists again. I'm sorry, but no matter what Tom Ridge and Bush Jr. do, you cannot stop determined terrorists. You may get 100 of them, but that 101st will get through and will be followed by hundreds more. If we were a homogeneous country, we'd be able to spot the Middle Eastern terrorists as soon as they step foot on the street. As we are not homogeneous, there's no way we can know a person is a terrorist until they show their hands in some way. You can bet that future terrorists will be more circumspect and sophisticated than they have been thus far.

 

I was not going to bring this up because I knew it would get severely negative responses and disbelief, but it's kind of on point, so at least here me out.

I watched a report on one of the major news shows on the networks, I think it was on 60 Minutes. I found it very interesting 1) that it was aired at all, and 2) that other stations didn't air it once it did get out........Anyway, I'm going to abbreviate it here (and my memory doesn't always serve me well, so anyone can correct me if I'm wrong)....

The story was about a lady who lived somewhere near New York City, where she could see the Twins outside her apartment window. This lady (I guess like other older ladies) was ever vigilant about weirdos hanging out around the complex. One early morning she notices a white van parked outside in the parking lot that has never been there. There are also 4 individuals in the van, walking around, killing time. Ultimately, they end up on top of the van, watching the Twins. All of a sudden when the first plane hit, they went crazy, jumping up and down in joy. They then started taking pictures of each other one at a time (and as two or three with their arms around each other) with the burning towers in the background).

Sure that these individuals were part of the attacks, she contacted authorities. The finally tracked down two of these individuals, and it turned out they were ISRAELI intelligence members. Fast foward to the end of the story, they finally found the other two men in Israel and interviewed them. Israel officials and they both deny they knew that the Twins were to be attacked. The deny smiling and laughing during the attacks, but do admit to taking pictures (which they will not release to us).

The undercurrent in the report wasn't implying that it was Israel that carried out the attacks, but that their intelligence knew something was going to happen, and they wanted us in the "war" with them, like another Pearl Harbor.

I know this may sound farfetched, and I'm not sure I totally believe it. But there are facts here you can't deny. That lady did see unusual characters who admit being at the place she places them at, albeit they deny their activities at that location. Law enforcement records show her report, and officals confirm they detained two of the individuals and confirmed they were Israeli. Also, 60 Minutes interviewed two of the men in Israel. It's all just a confusing bit of info that makes me worry even more....who are our friends?

Is it possible the Israelis are as crazy as the Palestinians? And please don't crucify me over this stuff....

 

Not here, I fully believe it could've happened. And I don't think for one minute that our closet allies aren't spying on us, it happening.

You know, newspapers and news channels are great but there it so much happening out there that they or us will never know and so much propaganda that gets distributed intentionally...

 

Good post cpadpl,

I fully understand your trepidation about making such a post, but I believe most of the people on this board are open minded, and not quick to jump to conclusions. (I would hope so anyway)

As far as 9/11 is concerned (God I hope I'm wrong), but I believe there is more to that day, than what meets the eye.
(hang on a sec, while I zip up my flame suit)

Far be it for me to speculate and draw conclusions, because I won't, but I believe there is something to do with that day, that we will never know.

All I can say, is that it doesn't hurt to question what we see and hear.

Israel & Palestine: It has to get worse before it gets better.
There will never be peace there until one side gets pummelled into the ground and cries "Uncle"

Like someone else said (Can't remember who) There has to be war, before there can be peace.
What amazes me, is that, as intelligent human beings, we have the capacity to stop fighting and killing, but we don't.

For all the progress we have made as the human race, and how much knowledge we have learned, we truly are a stupid people.

Alex

 

There has been alot talk about these Isreali men on 9/11 and such in much of the media , off shore media mostly,
And while the media (and I) do not believe that Isreal would be behind such an attack, It is suggested and highly probable that Isreali intelligence knew something.
One point brought up is this:

Only one isreali citizen and I believe 2 (correct me if I am wrong) American jews were killed in the attacks.
Now let's think about this for moment, How is it possible that two buildings go down in the financial center of the US, in New York City, and only a handful of jews (sorry , not intended as a racial slur) are killed?
What is implied is that jews were somehow forewarned that something was going down that day, and did not show up at the office.



On the other note, IMO Isreal is very dangerous and Sharon and his likes are far more dangerous ( when it comes to regional stablity) than Sadaam could ever be.

Also, the figure of US aid to Isreal now exceeds 90 billion dollars over the past 7 years. A country of I think 8 million, getting $90 billion dollars from another countries taxpayers?!!

 

capadpl,

I remember that story. I also remember that the van was registered to a moving company where they were employees. When the authorities finally got there, the business was abandoned. They all split.

Creepy conspiracy stuff. Makes you wonder.

I would not put it past Ariel Sharon to have known about the attack and not said anything. Hell, we had analysts and agents in our own country who warned about a pending attack and they were ignored or dismissed.

 

Guys

My whole point is this - I believe in Israel's right to defend itself, I respect them as a God-fearing democracy, and I do believe they are our friends. Remember I am one of the people who would have already dropped a nuke immediately after ascertaining the that Bin Laden was responsible. Regardless of whether civilians would be killed, my policy would be that any attacks against us would be met immediately and ruthlessly. But that's another thread...

I'm just saying isn't it possible that Israel's involvement and intent at this point is a little bit different than ours, and maybe we should step back and judge our involvement in a case-by-case basis rather than unequivocally giving our support to Israel just because "they are our friends", or "they are the only democracy in that region", or "they help us out with intelligence." I mean isn't it possible that they are as religiously fanatical as the Palestinians?

I mean this is quite different that the past 50 plus odd years where we have essentially been an assistant to a disabled individual, helping them get stronger, and defending them against others that would attack and rob this disabled individual. This individual isn't disabled anymore, has left "rehab" if you will, and is now and has been kicking a$$ around town. Isn't the situation different now and shouldn't our role be a little different now?

For instance, why won't Israel abide by the UN resolutions to withdraw from the occupied territories? Because that would "cut them off" and they would be ripe for an attack? I mean is "probably gonna" a good enough reason for them to not listen to UN resolutions? "If we withdraw, our position will be weakened, and our neighbors are probably gonna attack us, so we can't withdraw..."

There are just some conceptual inconsistencies here that I can't reconcile by giving unequivocal support to Israel, that's all....

 

Israel is one of the countries that warned us of an impending terrorist attack D. For you to suggest that Sharon would let an attack happen is totally ludicrous. You need psychiatric help D. Please get some. Accusing people with no proof. Typical liberal BS.

 

Ok, some of you are stating that the people over in the middle east are rich and some are better off then us here in America so our life style had nothing to do with the attacks.

Sorry your wrong there. Yes there are some over there that are wealthy and have more material, but its only a hand full who keep there people in the stone age.

It is their rich guys funding the attacks BUT none of the rich guys are carrying them out only the poor and stupid ones that have been brainwashed that America is bad for reason I had stated before.

Does America do things overseas with other countries that we shouldn't or that **** some of their people off? Yes most likly we do, but only a few of them know about it over there to be pissed off. Remember they don't have news like us they have stations that tell them what to think (kind of like CNN) they really need FOX news over there and I bet once they knew what America was really about they would overthrow just about every damn county over there. We would not even have to attack anyone their people would take care of it for us.

Most of what is going on has nothing to do with what America does or does not do overseas its mostly religion that is involved. They think there way is best and that our way will disrupt their way of worship. Their way of life is "Do as we do, or we will kill you". Our way of life is "get along with us and we won't mess with you" Now by get along means you don't have to do as we do.

Now if they want to surpress their women and make them wear certain clothes, or do things certain ways then so be it. Once we get the liberals out of it, and their sponsers (CNN and others) who say "Oh my God we can't let this happen overseas" then we will be much better off.

That's a big part of the problem is that many here "liberals" can not seem to stay out of other peoples business. Now if some country was killing off their people then fine we should get involved, but if its making a women cook all day then oh well thats what she will have to do. We use to have things like that right here in America, be it women, blacks, etc they have and are continuing to fix that problem. They were smart enough to get togeather and CHANGE things. If people overseas dont have enough brains to do it on their own then oh well, not my problem.

We get involved with more BS here and overseas because of liberals and "I feel your pain" well stop feeling their damn pain, if they fall off a bike and get hurt then they will either figure out how to ride it right, or just don't ride it anymore. I don't care about the other peoples (overseas) pain, and I am tired of paying to fix their pain when they are to STUPID to do anything for themselfs. It's life lessons.

 

I cannot and do not believe Israel knew of the attacks before they happened. Were they (the politicians, that is) really, REALLY upset? Quite likely no, because it allowed them to continue their attacks on Palestinians in the name of the "War on Terror".

By invoking the "War On Terror" Sharon is able to do just about anything ... listen to the government spokesman over there keep saying "our problem is no different to the US problems with terrorism...our fight is the same".

BS !!! THEY are occupying another people - the ONLY occupation of an entire people in the world right now.

By making the link with the US war on terror they are trying to get the "legitimacy" of the US war into their oppression of 3.2 million people.

Also, the idea that only a handful of Jews died in the World Trade Center attacks is a myth... a great website to check out is www.snopes.com - it lists "urban myths" etc. And the suggestion that Jews stayed home on Sept 11 is quite, quite wrong.

Also, I hasten to add, my posts about this issue deal with ISRAELIS and PALESTINIANS, not not not Jews and Muslims. As I've said before, this is a political, not religious debate.

As I've said before, the posts on this thread have been really, really interesting and well informed.

Keep it goin'! The debate can only be a good thing...

By the way, i agree with the guy who said "good post cdadpl". To blindly think Israel acts in the interests of the US is dangerous. They're in it for themselves (again, ISRAELIS, not JEWS).

 

They didn't know about a 'specific' attack. We were warned and did nothing for fear of scaring the ****ens out of the average American who can't handle being held up at the airport, in line, etc.

 

Here's another example of how our warped foreign policy can backfire and bite us in the butt. BTW, care to guess who was the President during this particular time period?

 

Then, why the hell didn't the Bush Administration and Bush himself take any of the warnings seriously?

To think that a warning would scare the whatevers out our country is ludicrous. We've been through heigtened security measures before. Advisories could have gone out to pay particular attention for suspicious fliers, such as those who don't check in baggage or pay for their tickets with cash.

It's pretty dumb to think that we couldn't have done something to at least pay better attention to security measures. Any little thing might have helped prevent the disaster.

 

Because these warnings were given during the CLINTONIAN presidency. Don't you get any other news channel besides CNN?