250K a Year, Middle Class??
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25
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From: Annapolis, MD
I work for an organization that employes union members in 33 states. The average annual gross wages for this group is about $52,000 plus fringe benefits.
I'd say that you need to be making at least $40K if you have employer paid benefits, and $60K if you pay for your own medical and retirement, to be considered "middle class".
In my mind, middle class means you can afford a modest mortgage payment, drive a decent vehicle, and can save some money after paying for essentials like food, fuel, utilities, and insurance.
Anyone making $250K or above is VERY well off, and the further upwards they are from that number the closer they are to the magic title of being "rich". They can afford to live in any kind of home they want, in any neighborhood they want, they can drive any car they want, they can vacation anywhere they want, they can buy just about anything they want, and they can send their kids to college anywhere they want.
I define "working poor" as being someone who works at least 40 hours aweek, yet cannot afford to rent a decent apartment, pay utility bills, pay insurance, pay for routine healthcare, and still have enough money left over to feed and cloth themselves properly. Unfortunately, this group has increased as a percentage of our population faster than any of the other groups.
I'd say that you need to be making at least $40K if you have employer paid benefits, and $60K if you pay for your own medical and retirement, to be considered "middle class".
In my mind, middle class means you can afford a modest mortgage payment, drive a decent vehicle, and can save some money after paying for essentials like food, fuel, utilities, and insurance.
Anyone making $250K or above is VERY well off, and the further upwards they are from that number the closer they are to the magic title of being "rich". They can afford to live in any kind of home they want, in any neighborhood they want, they can drive any car they want, they can vacation anywhere they want, they can buy just about anything they want, and they can send their kids to college anywhere they want.
I define "working poor" as being someone who works at least 40 hours aweek, yet cannot afford to rent a decent apartment, pay utility bills, pay insurance, pay for routine healthcare, and still have enough money left over to feed and cloth themselves properly. Unfortunately, this group has increased as a percentage of our population faster than any of the other groups.
Last edited by Mudpro; Aug 28, 2008 at 06:14 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 752
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From: North of Dallas, South of Frisco
I think it all depends on where you live...
If you live in Washington DC, New York, Irvine, CA, San Francisco- and you make $100K - $250K, that's good money. But, you're not rich, not when your house note wil run you $6,000 + for a "standard" 3 BR, 2 Bath house.
Take that same $100K - $250K and move to Newellton, LA- and YOU'RE RICH!
Yeah, your 5 BR, 4 Bath, 3 car garage home may cost you $200K in Newellton, but it's sitting on a 2 acre lot, surrounded by your toys, and you're only paying $1,700/month (or less) for it- because your taxes are dirt cheap.
So, it's all about location. My city is named the most affluent in the US this year. But, with a median $84K income, let's just say there wouldn't be NEARLY as many 4,000 sqare foot houses in this area as there are if we had to pay California or NYC prices.
To me, as long as you work for someone else, you are not rich- you are an employee.
That of course, changes once you become a super executive (C-Level), and you're getting million and multi-million dollar sign-on bonuses, as well as performance bonuses, and to top it off, golden parachute bonuses. Then, that guy is rich.
If you work for, say- American Airlines, and you make $300,000.00- you aren't rich.
Not if a layoff will change your lifestyle within 12 months.
Rich = independently wealthy. If you aren't independently wealthy, you can never really be rich.
If you live in Washington DC, New York, Irvine, CA, San Francisco- and you make $100K - $250K, that's good money. But, you're not rich, not when your house note wil run you $6,000 + for a "standard" 3 BR, 2 Bath house.
Take that same $100K - $250K and move to Newellton, LA- and YOU'RE RICH!
Yeah, your 5 BR, 4 Bath, 3 car garage home may cost you $200K in Newellton, but it's sitting on a 2 acre lot, surrounded by your toys, and you're only paying $1,700/month (or less) for it- because your taxes are dirt cheap.
So, it's all about location. My city is named the most affluent in the US this year. But, with a median $84K income, let's just say there wouldn't be NEARLY as many 4,000 sqare foot houses in this area as there are if we had to pay California or NYC prices.
To me, as long as you work for someone else, you are not rich- you are an employee.
That of course, changes once you become a super executive (C-Level), and you're getting million and multi-million dollar sign-on bonuses, as well as performance bonuses, and to top it off, golden parachute bonuses. Then, that guy is rich.
If you work for, say- American Airlines, and you make $300,000.00- you aren't rich.
Not if a layoff will change your lifestyle within 12 months.
Rich = independently wealthy. If you aren't independently wealthy, you can never really be rich.
Last edited by Bighersh; Aug 28, 2008 at 06:43 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,760
Likes: 4
From: Nebraska
If I made 250k in one year, I would probably take a year or two off of working to do nothing but drink beer and have a good time.
After looking around a little on the internet, the median income of 'my' town (I actually live 20 miles from there, closest town to me though) is right around 25k a year.
However, we dont get charged 30 bucks to go to the movie theater (30 miles away), or spend 200 bucks in one night to 'go out on the town'.
I see some of those shows on TV that have little, nothing special houses on the market in bigger citys for 90k or something, and I about chit myself because you could buy the same thing around here for 20k.
Hell, the 'rich' people that live on the hill right outside of town had their house on the market for around 200k if I remember right. Is anyone around here going to drop that kind of cash on that house? Hell no, thats a lot of cash to us. Say someone from LA or NY or something flew out here and saw that house for 200k, and they would have a heart attack reaching for their wallet to pull out a couple 100k bills
Thats probably a 1.5 mil house, (probably more actually, I dont really know what 1.5 mil will get you somewhere like that) if it was sitting in LA or NY or somwhere like that, not including the shed, all the land, and the 3 car garage.
So, you might see the median 25k annual income and think we all live in wooden shacks with no running water and drive 78 Datsuns....but compared to the price of things around here, its really not that bad.
Now, its depends who you ask, but to me, 250k a year is NO WHERE CLOSE to being middle class. If someone told me they were middle class, then told me they made 250k a year, I would beat them with a tire iron.
After looking around a little on the internet, the median income of 'my' town (I actually live 20 miles from there, closest town to me though) is right around 25k a year.
However, we dont get charged 30 bucks to go to the movie theater (30 miles away), or spend 200 bucks in one night to 'go out on the town'.
I see some of those shows on TV that have little, nothing special houses on the market in bigger citys for 90k or something, and I about chit myself because you could buy the same thing around here for 20k.
Hell, the 'rich' people that live on the hill right outside of town had their house on the market for around 200k if I remember right. Is anyone around here going to drop that kind of cash on that house? Hell no, thats a lot of cash to us. Say someone from LA or NY or something flew out here and saw that house for 200k, and they would have a heart attack reaching for their wallet to pull out a couple 100k bills
Thats probably a 1.5 mil house, (probably more actually, I dont really know what 1.5 mil will get you somewhere like that) if it was sitting in LA or NY or somwhere like that, not including the shed, all the land, and the 3 car garage.So, you might see the median 25k annual income and think we all live in wooden shacks with no running water and drive 78 Datsuns....but compared to the price of things around here, its really not that bad.
Now, its depends who you ask, but to me, 250k a year is NO WHERE CLOSE to being middle class. If someone told me they were middle class, then told me they made 250k a year, I would beat them with a tire iron.
Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 19
Likes: 1
I think it all depends on where you live...
If you live in Washington DC, New York, Irvine, CA, San Francisco- and you make $100K - $250K, that's good money. But, you're not rich, not when your house note wil run you $6,000 + for a "standard" 3 BR, 2 Bath house.
Take that same $100K - $250K and move to Newellton, LA- and YOU'RE RICH!
Yeah, your 5 BR, 4 Bath, 3 car garage home may cost you $200K in Newellton, but it's sitting on a 2 acre lot, surrounded by your toys, and you're only paying $1,700/month (or less) for it- because your taxes are dirt cheap.
So, it's all about location. My city is named the most affluent in the US this year. But, with a median $84K income, let's just say there wouldn't be NEARLY as many 4,000 sqare foot houses in this area as there are if we had to pay California or NYC prices.
To me, as long as you work for someone else, you are not rich- you are an employee.
That of course, changes once you become a super executive (C-Level), and you're getting million and multi-million dollar sign-on bonuses, as well as performance bonuses, and to top it off, golden parachute bonuses. Then, that guy is rich.
If you work for, say- American Airlines, and you make $300,000.00- you aren't rich.
Not if a layoff will change your lifestyle within 12 months.
Rich = independently wealthy. If you aren't independently wealthy, you can never really be rich.
If you live in Washington DC, New York, Irvine, CA, San Francisco- and you make $100K - $250K, that's good money. But, you're not rich, not when your house note wil run you $6,000 + for a "standard" 3 BR, 2 Bath house.
Take that same $100K - $250K and move to Newellton, LA- and YOU'RE RICH!
Yeah, your 5 BR, 4 Bath, 3 car garage home may cost you $200K in Newellton, but it's sitting on a 2 acre lot, surrounded by your toys, and you're only paying $1,700/month (or less) for it- because your taxes are dirt cheap.
So, it's all about location. My city is named the most affluent in the US this year. But, with a median $84K income, let's just say there wouldn't be NEARLY as many 4,000 sqare foot houses in this area as there are if we had to pay California or NYC prices.
To me, as long as you work for someone else, you are not rich- you are an employee.
That of course, changes once you become a super executive (C-Level), and you're getting million and multi-million dollar sign-on bonuses, as well as performance bonuses, and to top it off, golden parachute bonuses. Then, that guy is rich.
If you work for, say- American Airlines, and you make $300,000.00- you aren't rich.
Not if a layoff will change your lifestyle within 12 months.
Rich = independently wealthy. If you aren't independently wealthy, you can never really be rich.
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Olive Branch, MS
Not sure how anyone can say 250k is middle class when you look at the median income of the entire US. That's somewhere near the top 2% of all earners in the country. Thats putting middle class as like 80% of the population.
Those saying 250k isn't much in some places because quite a few make that are talking about places where there is a large portion of upper class.
I'd say once you approach 200k then you're leaving the middle class behind.
And the justification that they have bills to pay and all that nonsense, does that mean those making 50k dont have that? it's all about what you allow yourself to spend your money on. If I'm making 300k and complain that my $2M house and 3 cars and my kids private school are eating me alive then I can't have sympathy for you. Just turn to the guy trying to raise his family on 50k and struggling the same with not nearly as much.
I just find it hard to feel sorry for people who make bad choices and want others in far worse situations feel bad for them.
Those saying 250k isn't much in some places because quite a few make that are talking about places where there is a large portion of upper class.
I'd say once you approach 200k then you're leaving the middle class behind.
And the justification that they have bills to pay and all that nonsense, does that mean those making 50k dont have that? it's all about what you allow yourself to spend your money on. If I'm making 300k and complain that my $2M house and 3 cars and my kids private school are eating me alive then I can't have sympathy for you. Just turn to the guy trying to raise his family on 50k and struggling the same with not nearly as much.
I just find it hard to feel sorry for people who make bad choices and want others in far worse situations feel bad for them.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,895
Likes: 0
From: Starkville Mississippi
"I just find it hard to feel sorry for people who make bad choices and want others in far worse situations feel bad for them."
Couldn't have said it better myself. I have never understood people who are well off and blow everything, especially young people who inherit a fortune and have nothing after 2 years.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I have never understood people who are well off and blow everything, especially young people who inherit a fortune and have nothing after 2 years.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,071
Likes: 0
From: Long Island, NY
The average house hold income on Long Island is 72k a year. I know of 3 people that make over 300k a year working for someone else. And if you looked at them you would think they make 50k.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 752
Likes: 0
From: North of Dallas, South of Frisco
Yep, it all depends on location...
If I made my salary and lived in my hometown (Waterproof, LA) - *Just down the street from Newellton, LA* then I'd be living like a KING. But, had I never left Waterproof, I might be making $25,000 - $30,000 a year- and only then if I were a teacher or owned my own business.
Folks back home have expenses too- I mean, gas is $3.65 a gallon there, just like it is here- it's just that the average person in Plano, TX makes far more money than the average person in Northeast Louisiana.
When I bought my first house back in 1996- and it was $75,000- I started sweating as I signed paper after paper, after paper- thinking, "This is a LOT of money", all the while knowing I could have had a larger house on a lot 4 times the size, for $40,000 back home. My wife on the other hand, is from the Bay Area, where folks regularly sneeze and wipe their butts on $70,000 houses- so she wasn't worried at all. Different areas of the country, vastly different prices.
Like Biggie said, More money, More problems...
But, now that the world is getting online with telecommuting, perhaps one day, we can all earn $100,000 incomes, and choose to live in places with no traffic, no crime, and low cost of living. For now, to get a good paying job, most will have to migrate to the city, and with that comes increased cost- for everything...
I just helped a friend move into a 1,200 sq. ft townhouse in Richardson, very nice, and $2,400/month in rent...
One could not live in such a home, small though it may be, on a $50K income, but for $2,400/month- that's a $240K home, and at least double the space- but also comes with the cost of maintenance...
Things vary:
Haircut-
Home: $7.00 - $10.00/week
Texas: $15.00 - $18.00/week
Hair stylist (Women)-
Home: $35.00 (twice/month)
Texas: $140.00 (twice/month)
Lawn Service-
Home: $15.00 week (Or free if you do it yourself)
Texas: $40.00 week (Or free if you do it yourself)
Property taxes:
Home: $50.00 / year
Texas: $3,750 / year
So, one has to make more money to live at the same level. So, depending on where you live, it is indeed conceivable to have more available cash flow at $50K, than someone living somewhere else making 2 - 3 times (or more) as much.
Last edited by Bighersh; Sep 2, 2008 at 06:14 PM.
snip......
But the real question is: What is a fair federal income tax for someone who makes $250,000 per year?
I say 25%, or $62,500 per year. When you add in state and local taxes, FICA, property taxes, sales tax, car registration, and all other forms of taxes, that dude is still paying over $100,000 in taxes. I think the govt. should be happy with that, instead of demanding another $50,000.
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But the real question is: What is a fair federal income tax for someone who makes $250,000 per year?
I say 25%, or $62,500 per year. When you add in state and local taxes, FICA, property taxes, sales tax, car registration, and all other forms of taxes, that dude is still paying over $100,000 in taxes. I think the govt. should be happy with that, instead of demanding another $50,000.
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it boggles my mind that folks pay so much into taxes but there is always more 'need' for increased taxes
BIG HERSH:
You made me laugh with your first house!! I went home and got sick after buying a home 1995 for 90K. Then 11 yrs later and several houses I wasn't nearly as nauseated when I signed in the mid triples.... hell, i think signing an ADSO is more nauseating for me now.
Last edited by zoo crew; Sep 2, 2008 at 06:51 PM.