Gun owners, need advice

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Old Apr 23, 2007 | 04:26 PM
  #31  
Quintin's Avatar
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From: Georgia on my mind...
Originally Posted by Bryndon
Bird shot is better than buckshot - the more BBs, the better the chance of a solid hit.
Um, no. Birdshot is for shooting little birds out the sky.

Birdshot lacks the reliable penetration necessary to reach vital organs, break bones, and stop the threat immediately.
 
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Old Apr 23, 2007 | 04:33 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Quintin
Um, no. Birdshot is for shooting little birds out the sky.

Birdshot lacks the reliable penetration necessary to reach vital organs, break bones, and stop the threat immediately.
Trust me, the coroner's pictures of #6 bird shot at 10' - 4" entrance wound and a 12" exit. At 10' it will go right through a body. Even at a distance it can be effective, but more mass is better as distance increases. Indoors, you will almost never get 20'. Quite effective inside that range. You might be pissed if I shoot your legs, but you won't be coming after me... your bloody stumps won't let you.

If you want to prove it one way or the other, buy a whole hog (fresh cleaned not frozen) and hang it up. Then shoot with bird shot at 20'. Most of the BB's that hit it will penetrate 50% through but most won't exit.
 
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Old Apr 23, 2007 | 06:45 PM
  #33  
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From: Lansdale, PA
Originally Posted by TexEdition
No 1911 style if you haven't had training.. and honestly, probaby the best handgun for home defense would be a S&W 686 or Ruger GP100, those are both .357.. Federal 125 gr. JHP is very much proven as a one-shot-stop load.
I have been talking about getting one of these for years, so today I "pulled the trigger..." It's a 7 shot. Got it used for $499.


 
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Old Apr 23, 2007 | 07:14 PM
  #34  
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From: Georgia on my mind...
Originally Posted by Bryndon
Trust me, the coroner's pictures of #6 bird shot at 10' - 4" entrance wound and a 12" exit. At 10' it will go right through a body. Even at a distance it can be effective, but more mass is better as distance increases. Indoors, you will almost never get 20'. Quite effective inside that range. You might be pissed if I shoot your legs, but you won't be coming after me... your bloody stumps won't let you.

If you want to prove it one way or the other, buy a whole hog (fresh cleaned not frozen) and hang it up. Then shoot with bird shot at 20'. Most of the BB's that hit it will penetrate 50% through but most won't exit.
<sigh>

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.
Birdshot is for killing little birdies and is a very bad choice for reliably stopping a human threat intent on causing harm to you.
 

Last edited by Quintin; Apr 23, 2007 at 07:18 PM.
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Old Apr 24, 2007 | 07:36 AM
  #35  
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From: Tulsa, O K L A H O M A!
Originally Posted by Bryndon
If you want to prove it one way or the other, buy a whole hog (fresh cleaned not frozen) and hang it up. Then shoot with bird shot at 20'. Most of the BB's that hit it will penetrate 50% through but most won't exit.
Bird shot at 20' won't reliably go all the way through a squirrel, so I don't think it is going to go 50% through a hog!

My dad is a hog farmer. He and my brother have actually done some rifle testing on old sows, but I don't think they've done any shotgun work. I'll have to ask them!

Grim
 
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Old Apr 24, 2007 | 09:24 AM
  #36  
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From: Wisconsin
Well, my info is based on the old Waukesha County Wisconsin coroner. Back when I got a degree in Police Science, she brought a slide show (yeah, it was a long time ago) with all sorts of wounds - including what she claimed to be bird shot at close ranges. VERY enlightening. I'd rather face a shotgun with a slug than birdshot at close range - very messy and very effective. Large entrance and exit wounds with massive internal damage. Her comment was inside 20' you don't have to be accurate with it, just in the neighborhood.

Never done any testing myself on people, but birdshot at 20 yards (60 feet) will drop fairly good sized animals - including the horrible squirrel and rabbit...

I really don't want to argue, just passing on what I was taught. But based on Quintin's info...

"Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches."

Most areas without concealed carry outlaw knives with over 4" blade, because the blade will reach the human heart. If you are shooting someone in the butt, you won't hit anything vital, but if you shoot body mass, you are likely to cause body stopping trauma. For the record, I use #6.
 

Last edited by Bryndon; Apr 24, 2007 at 09:29 AM.
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Old Apr 24, 2007 | 08:44 PM
  #37  
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From: Truckee, CA
Originally Posted by wrench007
Thanks RYAN24, No kids in my house. That was a major concern for me years ago when I had a 357 mag and had the lock on it. but now I don't have that concern and want to be able to act quickly if needed. I'll tell ya, when I see a group of 15-17 year olds walking around at 2 in the morning I call the cops. Nothing happens, they don't respond. I mean there is a curfew, They are up to no good. I'm talking about eight or nine kids at 2-3 in the morning walking the alleys. I need to put more pressure on this crap,
It's where most of the vandalizing is coming from, wake up local police.
In addition to exploring your options for self protection, it would probably be a good idea to get in touch with the mayor, city council, and police chief or sheriff. Take the time to explain your situation, your concerns, and ask for their help. If you have neighbors that feel the same as you, and have similar concerns, enlist their support as well. Neighborhood watches do work... work together and look after each others interests. Be persistent. Ask for extra patrols. If you have young punks running around at all hours of the night, I'd be willing to bet that there is underage drinking and probably some drugs involved. Share these concerns with the authorities.
When stuff happens in the middle of the night, call the cops, Then call your
neighbors and have them call the cops. The cops may ignore one call, but the most likely won't ignore several from the same neighborhood. If you call, and the police don't respond, call the police chief the next day and complain.
If your town is big enough to have local media, get them involved. Elected officials hate bad press and the media LOVES to cover anything negative.

I hope it never gets to the point that you have to shoot someone to protect your family. But if you do, just remember, the dead can't testify against, nor
can they sue you... but taking a human life WILL affect you for the rest of yours... Good luck.
 
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Old Apr 24, 2007 | 10:22 PM
  #38  
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From: Tulsa, O K L A H O M A!
Originally Posted by Bryndon
Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches."
I disagree with using birdshot for home defense. If you're going to spend the money to buy a gun for home defense, drop the extra few dollars and buy some buckshot.

Here's a great article on buckshot vs. birdshot with pictures.

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

Links to the pictures are at the bottom of the page.

Grim
 
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Old Apr 24, 2007 | 10:33 PM
  #39  
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I have both types of firearms. A Sig Sauer P226 .40 pistol and a Remington 870 Express Magnum short barrel (with tactical grip stalk).

The pistol is great for range shooting, but I wouldn't want to use it for home defense. Too much risk of bullets going thru walls and hitting love ones. The shotgun is the best choice. No need to aim perfect, and low risk of getting past walls. Plus they are fun to shoot at the range for practice, cheap to buy, and shells are cheap. Plus people may not believe your pistol is real, while the sight of a shotgun usually brings fear into most people.
 
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Old May 1, 2007 | 05:15 PM
  #40  
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From: Tennessee
Originally Posted by wrench007
I'm looking at a smith and wesson model sw40ve. $334.95 at a local gun shop. Reason- My neighbor has become crap. My garage just got broke into, stoled a few bikes, tools and other stuff I haven't even realized yet. My wife just bought her bike a few weeks ago for $345.00 and she is pissed as you could imagine. The way it's going, it's just a matter of time before these low life pieces of crap come into my house uninvited. Punks, 15-17 years old looking for an easy fix. So I want a home protection weapon. The SW fits me just fine, feels good in my hand. I haven't had a hand gun for many years. My question, I this a good handgun for home protection? I know moving would be the right thing to do but that's not an option right now. And, I knew this was going to happen, but you have to sleep sometimes. Called the cops and they just basically said to look at the pawn shops for your stuff. Appreciate any advice on this handgun, thanks in advance
Hey Wrench, maybe it's just my own bias opinion, but I think a Glock is hard to beat. As a Police Officer, our departmental issued weapon is the Glock 22, 40 cal and I love it! I also have a Glock 27 (a.k.a. baby Glock) and it is .40 cal also. So the magazines are interchangeable. I carry the 27 as my backup weapon both on/off duty. (Very easy to conceal.) Having said all this, as others have suggested, it’s hard to beat a good shotgun. If someone is trying to break in and they hear a shotgun being racked....VERY good deterrent. If you're looking for good home protection device criminals (burglary/petty theft) have been polled and the number one deterrent is a dog followed by security system. Of course if you are armed and ready, I am sure that would supercede the preceding. I hope this was of some sort of help. If you have any other questions feel free to e-mail me. I will try to check this post later also.
 
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Old May 2, 2007 | 09:59 AM
  #41  
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First consideration: Have you made the decision to take a life when,not if,
you point a weapon. Brandshing a weapon without the fortitude to use it is a disaster waiting to happen.
This has been drilled into me from the first time I handled a weapon.
My personal favorite is a Springfield Armory M1911A1 loaded with Black Talon 240 grain personal defense rounds(now discontinued because they are inhuman).
For you I would heed the suggestions for a shotgun. Pistol rounds will punch thru drywall & brick walls. Brick walls usually will stop 00 buckshot.
CAREFULLY research the home defense laws in your state. The home as a castle defense USUALLY will holdup in court. Have you documented all your police reporting ?
I cannot stress the importance of a informed & considered decision to protect your & yours.
Best of luck!
 
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