Amen OnBelay, and it's Sunday too.

 

We've discussed some of this before and I recall it being a civil discourse.

The price of Freedom is eternal vigilence. No matter what happens someone is going to blame the government either for doing something or for not doing something.

There are some things that the government is restricted from doing at all times. There are no mitigating circumstances.

Not really a good example, but I know at what you are getting. Even when told to leave the NOLAfugees still didn't leave. No amount of moddeling and simulation can or would change that fact. The entire Katrina situation in NO was a fiasco from the bottom to the top IMO.

Practicing for response is good, but it's not comparable to what is going on in our country right now. Does the skipper have a group of people who rifle through your belongings looking for lighters or other impliments that could start a fire? Does he have a 1-800 hotline where one of your shipmates can call in and report you for talking about a fire? Does the ships libraarian (just go along with it) have to report you if you checked out a book that spoke of fire?

No. While I do drive pretty much everywhere it is not possible for everyone to
drive everywhere they need to go. Plus the TSA is incompetent and does not provide any real security to a flight.

No

No. Life without Liberty is not worth living. Not for me, not for my kids. When you give up your principles you've given up yourself. It's far too easy for someone to chicken out and say "Take my rights, I don't need them please please please protect me, than it is for them to stand and do what is right.

So mote it be. If someone is so scared of bad things happening to them thenj they need to check into a small padded room where their every need will be provided for. Those that wish to live life need to put on a helmet, it's rough out there.

It should be readily apparent and yes I do.

 

I went to a Brothers house to give comfort to his wife and kids as he left for a week on the road driving a rig. He's been disabled for over a year and a half, had his arm sectioned and shortened by 1/4", had a plate and a fist full of screws put in, lost his soon to be his company, almost lost his brother in a dump truck accident (broken neck), and has to help with his disabled parents. There's a note destined for their mailbox anonamously to assist with financial needs while he's gone as well.

What does that have to do with preserving Liberty in this country? The topic is not about helping others, which is vitally important, it's about keeping this country on track and true to its principles.

 

That's part of the problem... How many people care about the country anymore? Before 9/11, that is... And look how it's dropped off since. I like the fact the 01XLT takes ownership. It shows a vested intrest and is saying that the individual is not always more important than the country.

Very True---the country is much more important than nay individual---but the inidividual---on both sides of this argument--have the right to speak their mind and to disagree. How many good men---and women---died for that right over the years? Count the ones in 1941-1945 alone; my great uncle was burned alive when his B-29 he was piloting crash-landed.

Ownership is very important---but recoginizing that that ownership comes with the responsibility to allow healthy debate---and not saying to either side, in effect---"I find your ideas stupid---why don't you leave this great country?"

Isn't that what makes this country great? That we do have the right to freedom of speech and dissent---and that does go both ways, does it not?

Thanks,

TSC

 

Yes, there are measures in place for reporting dangerous conditions. If one of my shipmates threatened to start a fire, then the Skipper would be justified for searching his locker, as well as everyones, to ensure that this individual does not have that capability.



Read a book called 'Johnny Got His Gun' by Dalton Trumbo, and tell me how much freedom and liberty are worth. For the safety and security of people worldwide, the American soldier stands his post and gives his life when necessary. To say that your personnel rights are worth more than his life is a slap in the face to every soldier who has ever worn an American uniform. YOUR rights to life, liberty, and security are more important to HIM than his own life, but when you say that your rights are more important than his life, you sound like a general who leads from the rear, sending men into danger while you stay safe.

If I remember correctly, you were in the service also... Why? What principles did you join to fight for? What are you willing to give your life, but not your freedom to?

 

Read a book called 'Johnny Got His Gun' by Dalton Trumbo, and tell me how much freedom and liberty are worth.

98Lariet4X4---Johnny Got His Gun is a protest book---an anti-war book that came out in the late '30's, I believe. It was actually written by a man who had some very interestin connections to a Russian writer, as well.

However, I do agree with what you said about freedom and liberty, and what they are worth.

TSC

 

You missed my point entirely, but I digress.

Kindly find and point out to me where I said that my rights were more important than the life of a serviceman.

Being in the military gives you no special rights and makes your life no more valuable than the rights of the people. We go to war to protect our people and way of life, not to alter our way of life to make going to war easier.

Furthermore I'm too short to be a General. SGT USA 1 ea.

EDIT: I pledged my life for the perserverance of Liberty, not the other way around.

 

Looks like the book was made into a movie in 1971.

The first comment on it:

I became an instant pacifist when I saw this movie at the age of 16. Prior to this, I had been a supporter of the war in Vietnam, and had fully intended to enlist when I was old enough.

The Book Cover



Certainly looks like an unbiased tale of why Freedom and Liberty aren't worth much. Hell someone might even get hurt trying to protect them.

 

I'm well aware of the books status and its origin...For me, the book made me take a hard look at what life is worth... Is it better be a slave with no freedom, or dead? Are ideas worth losing life over? I say that anyone who says yes to that have never been in serious harms way...
Are the lives of my fellow country men worth dying for?? Damn right.Is the right of my fellow country man to have the ability to choose how he lives his life worth dying for? Yes, it is.

Is having the rights of an individual infringed upon to prevent him from infinging on others right to ' Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness' worth it?
Yes. I still have not seen anyone point out any individual rights that they have lost... The only one whose rights are at risk is those who could cause problems. If police in Colombine had intercepted the Myspace messages before the shootings, would the rights of the two kids have been violated? According to Pony_Driver, they would have been. I agree, the rights in that case would have been infringed upon. Where him and I differ on this matter is I think that it is necessary to lose a few rights in order to save the lives of the innocent. He does not.

I will die for my countrymens rights, as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others....

 

It was never stated, but follow this logic:
We went to war in the Middle East to fight terrorism.
Our servicemen give their lives for to ensure another 9/11 never happens
again.
Part of that fight happens here in this country, by attempting to thwart
terroristics acts before they happen.
By denying the govn't the right to intervene, you are saying that these men
and women, he!! kids, are dying in vain.

That is my interpertation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.




We are not altering our life to make war easier, rather we are trying to prevent needless loss of life. To ignore the threats that are real and present everday in our lives, to do nothing about it, is akin to anarchy.



Napolean was only 5'6"....

 

As I stated earlier it's better to die a free man than live as a slave. If you wish to be subjugated by all means do so, but that's not the path I choose.

Yes

Apparently you haven't heard of these gentlemen; Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, John Han****, Thomas Paine, Roger Sherman, John Jay, and James Wilson.


Not no but hell no. It has nothing to do with an individual infringing on the rights of another, it has to do with the government infringing upon the rights of the people. You know, where the power in this country supposedly rests.


If someone saw and or reported what those kids did on myspace then it was NOT an infringement on their rights. Whether or not minors have rights is a different topic for another discussion. Since myspace is a public 'place' there is no expectation of privacy so the argument does not hold water. The government does not have the right to snoop through a person's personal effects or conversations on a fishin expedition to see if someone is planning on doing something baaad.


Rights are paramount, period.

The term inalienable rights (or unalienable rights) refers to a set of human rights that are said to be absolute, not awarded by human power, not transferable to another power, and incapable of repudiation.

Pick one. Either you support people's inalienable rights or you do not.

 

You are in fact incorrect and your logic as it applies to the current discussion is flawed. While I support the troops whole heartedly, it is 100% counterproductive and wrong to violate our principles in their name, or in any other. We need, MUST stay true to what this country was founded for, otherwise we're just Great Brittan West and we may as well use the Constitution as kindling for the great book burning.

No matter what we do as a country, no matter how we prosecute terrorism, we must first and foremost, at all times, preserve the rights of the people.


It's called Freedom. We do not need to stick our heads in the sand to protect our rights, no do we need to give away the deed to protect ourselves.

Should I build myself and Arc de P_D?

 

It's not being subjugated. It's life. It's easy to say in the comfort of your living room. Say that when bullets are flying around.

Then you must not have much to live for...

Indeed, you got me there... Who are they? Perhaps men who lived in a drastically different time, fighting for drastically different things?? I fail to see where terrorists are taxing us. I fail to see where they are trying to rule this country and get rich off of our blood, sweat and tears. I fail to see where the terroristic govn't imposes their laws on us without our input... This is a bad example of what's going on today. 200 years ago, it was different.



The govn't is by the people, for the people... correct? Is not protecting the general public from harm in the best intrest of the general public?


Ok. I'll give you that one... Myspace was a bad example... Say it was intercepted in a phone call instead... The lives of those kids wouldn't be worth it?




I support the best intrests of the country. Sacraficing the innocent so you have the right to plan your neigbors murder or what have you, was an unforseen event 200 years ago. The aforementioned people didn't face the samw set of problems that we do today. The principles still stand, but must be changed to meet the times.


BTW, thank you for participation. You've caused me to think about things differently, and I hope that you may have had a look at a different perspective as well.

 

How many times has your sub come under fire from enemy small arms?

[QUOTE=98Lariet4x4]
I have everything to live for, but I'm not going to roll over and give my rights, my children's rights, nor their childrens rights away. It does not make us one bit safer nor is it called for.

No, not at all. They were men who thought that an idea was worth fighting, even dying for. That idea was our very way of life. When those men finished struggling through seemingly insurmountable odds and defeated the worlds greatest, most powerful military they set about framing our country. The stakes were no less than they are today. At any time they could have, as well as we can, lose our way of life.


Tis but one example of a tax implimented upon us in their honor.

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has announced the imposition of a security service fee in the amount of $2.50 per enplanement for passengers of domestic and foreign air carriers in air transportation, foreign air transportation, and intrastate air transportation originating at airports in the United States.

Didn't they endorse Kerry?

200 years ago it was no different. A foriegn entity was seeking to rule and control this country and its people, just like is happening today. There are armed men seeking to kill or maime our soldiers, just like 200 years ago. They are trying to make our military leave certain AO's, just like 200 years ago. There is a huge propganda movement and PR ploy underway, just like it was 200 years ago. Attacks are carried out on US interest, just like it was 200 years ago.

Not really, but it's supposed to be.

Only as long as their rights are left intact. When you remove or infringe upon them you have done them just as grave harm.

Was there a warrant for the wiretap? Certainly no one wants to see innocents harmed, but that does not justify spying on people. Otherwise we should just hire Sylvia Brown to head up our Department of Pre-Crime and get it over with.

No one has the right to plan a murder and it was certainly a foreseeable circumstance 200 years ago. Have you read the Federalist papers? Since murder is amoral and goes against natural law (also infringes upon a person's right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness) it is not a right.

The principles are resolute. Either one supports them or they don't.

I always try to look at things from various perspectives.

 

I knew a few would get upset with my honest take and logical thought out perception of the problem…

Those same few completely blew over the point, the one I made about American citizens who should have their citizenship revoked and sent packing to a better place, in their mind at least…

So, therefore I shall make the point again and see if attaches to the few firing brain cells they may have. I completely believe and support “honest” debate, it’s our greatest freedom and when lost the country will flounder and cease to exist.

Honest debate requires both parties, people, groups etc to come to the table with their possible, well thought out, solutions, plans, and strategies. Well thought out solutions, plans and strategies do NOT include doing nothing or putting innocent citizens of America at risk or America herself by proclaiming its best to admit defeat and pull out of Iraq. Leaving Iraq, unless we have succeeded with the mission, it IS defeat.

You NEVER quit a war, you NEVER back down from a war that is in place because to do so is to give up every one of your freedoms. You think a few whiners are crying now about their “freedoms” being taken away you just wait and see what could happen if America was to back down and become a coward as many weak minded Americans would like to see happen with Iraq and the war on terror.

So, any takers, anyone on the “other ready for deportation side” willing to take a stab at “real” debate? Let’s here your plan, ideas, possible solutions and they can NOT contain ending the war, getting along with the terrorist, getting to know the terrorist, etc. It MUST include how do will kill more terrorist until they realize their goofy God is a moron and they are all doomed to die a slow painful death until they come to terms, America’s terms and NO other’s terms!

Clinton did a **** poor job and Kerry would have done a worse job, I know that’s hard to imagine with how bad Clinton screwed it up and got over 3,000 innocent American’s slaughtered but Kerry would have done much worse because he truly is a weak minded coward…

So let’s hear it my friends, let’s here your possible solutions or what you will take with you on your deportation journey if I was in the White House…