Cheap Chinese Knockoff autos headed to America
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Joined: Jun 2002
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I saw an auto commercial the other day that was advertising a car called the "YARIS". I thought they said Taurus at first, but I quickly realized it was a Japanese auto commercial.
Who would buy something called a YARIS?
Who would buy something called a YARIS?
Really Old "Member"
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,362
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From: Kennesaw, Ga. USA
Another reply of mine that will probably not be very popular.
I own a HobbyTown USA franchise, a really big one, with net sales of $3.5 million a year. That's not for bragging rights, just to put a value on what I am about to say.
85% of what I sell comes from mainland China and that change has taken place over the last five years. If you are into plastic models, die cast models, RC planes, helicopters & cars, you are buying a product made in China.
If you are into model railroading, it all comes from China, even Lionel.
Science kits, rockets, plush toys, telescopes, microscopes, well just about all of it comes from China.
And, I do not sell knock off stuff. I am talking here about brand name goods that have been around for decades as good old US of A brands.
Next..... the quality is as good or better than anything I used to get 10, 15 years ago when it was made in the US, then Mexico, then Taiwan, then Thailand and so on.
Going outside my own business, if you own a computer, a TV set, a telephone, a vacuum cleaner, a stereo, a DVD player, and I will quit here, if you purchased it in the last 2-3 years, it most likely came from China. And I again am not talking about no name brands. Think Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, any big brand you can think of and that is where it comes from.
Regarding the price differential, cars sold in China do not have to meet any safety or emission standards nor do they carry a guarantee. They are built to absolute minimum specs for a market that has an average annual income far below that here but that is advancing by double digits every year.
I spent 30 years in the international auto/truck/construction vehicle business in 4 countries and am pretty well aware of what it takes to configure a vehicle for different market conditions. For Chery to meet all of the US regulations they will have to in order to sell the car here, the car would have to sell for ~ $13 to $14 thousand. Bricklin's plan is to upcontent the cars to entry luxury level specs and sell a $35 thousand car in terms of content for around $20 thousand. Maybe not such a bad idea as Hyundai and Kia are trying to do the same thing and sell a heck of a car for the price.
Bricklin is, admittedly a bit of a black sheep in the auto world but all seem to forget he also successfully launched Subaru before selling the distribution rights back to Subaru.
Say what you will about Soros, but he came here from, I think, Hungary with the clothes on his back and is now one of the richest men in the world. This boy ain't no dummy.
To hit a couple of other comments, the stealing of designs is nothing new and not confined to China although they seem to do it in a rather big way.
The initial Japanese cars that hit our shores in the fifties and sixties were ripoffs of older British and to some extent American designs.
To the issue of slave labor, forget it. 10-15 years ago it was almost that bad to be sure. Not now. Many, many companies that used to be owned by the Chinese Armed Forces or other Central Government agencies have now been passed on to local provincial authorities and those entities are more and more partnering with international companies who are pressing successfully for fairer employment policies. In fact, I have read a lot recently where these Chinese companies are having to compete with better pay and benefits to be able to staff up all these new or expanding companies and that the wage/benefits differential is becoming a lot smaller versus other developing countries than it was 5-10 years ago. There is also a lot of talk about China losing some of it's edge to Viet Nam, Bangladesh, India and a few other countries in the area.
As to quality, that technology can be stolen, purchased or hired just as the Japanese did after the fiasco of their first exports here in the fifties and sixties.
Once they figured out how to do it right, they just did it and we see the results of that now in the sales figures that show a continual growth in market share for their products.
To close this chapter of my book, get over it. Within 3-4 years it is possible, maybe even probable that the best affordable automotive products out there for you to choose from will come from China. It may not last for long as those other countries I mention try to clone the idea but I for one see it coming. The Chinese treasury is awash in dollars and euros from the stuff it sells to us and Europe and other countries. The government is committed to building the next Industrial Empire and is willing to fund the effort. Sadly, something that our own administrations over the last 50 years seem to have had no interest in. We sell Boeing airplanes, some weapons, a bit of grain and up until recently a lot of IT software and knowledge.
Kind of sad, for I am of the age when I remember we owned not only our own automotive market but had over 50% of the world market for cars and trucks.
Bill
I own a HobbyTown USA franchise, a really big one, with net sales of $3.5 million a year. That's not for bragging rights, just to put a value on what I am about to say.
85% of what I sell comes from mainland China and that change has taken place over the last five years. If you are into plastic models, die cast models, RC planes, helicopters & cars, you are buying a product made in China.
If you are into model railroading, it all comes from China, even Lionel.
Science kits, rockets, plush toys, telescopes, microscopes, well just about all of it comes from China.
And, I do not sell knock off stuff. I am talking here about brand name goods that have been around for decades as good old US of A brands.
Next..... the quality is as good or better than anything I used to get 10, 15 years ago when it was made in the US, then Mexico, then Taiwan, then Thailand and so on.
Going outside my own business, if you own a computer, a TV set, a telephone, a vacuum cleaner, a stereo, a DVD player, and I will quit here, if you purchased it in the last 2-3 years, it most likely came from China. And I again am not talking about no name brands. Think Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, any big brand you can think of and that is where it comes from.
Regarding the price differential, cars sold in China do not have to meet any safety or emission standards nor do they carry a guarantee. They are built to absolute minimum specs for a market that has an average annual income far below that here but that is advancing by double digits every year.
I spent 30 years in the international auto/truck/construction vehicle business in 4 countries and am pretty well aware of what it takes to configure a vehicle for different market conditions. For Chery to meet all of the US regulations they will have to in order to sell the car here, the car would have to sell for ~ $13 to $14 thousand. Bricklin's plan is to upcontent the cars to entry luxury level specs and sell a $35 thousand car in terms of content for around $20 thousand. Maybe not such a bad idea as Hyundai and Kia are trying to do the same thing and sell a heck of a car for the price.
Bricklin is, admittedly a bit of a black sheep in the auto world but all seem to forget he also successfully launched Subaru before selling the distribution rights back to Subaru.
Say what you will about Soros, but he came here from, I think, Hungary with the clothes on his back and is now one of the richest men in the world. This boy ain't no dummy.
To hit a couple of other comments, the stealing of designs is nothing new and not confined to China although they seem to do it in a rather big way.
The initial Japanese cars that hit our shores in the fifties and sixties were ripoffs of older British and to some extent American designs.
To the issue of slave labor, forget it. 10-15 years ago it was almost that bad to be sure. Not now. Many, many companies that used to be owned by the Chinese Armed Forces or other Central Government agencies have now been passed on to local provincial authorities and those entities are more and more partnering with international companies who are pressing successfully for fairer employment policies. In fact, I have read a lot recently where these Chinese companies are having to compete with better pay and benefits to be able to staff up all these new or expanding companies and that the wage/benefits differential is becoming a lot smaller versus other developing countries than it was 5-10 years ago. There is also a lot of talk about China losing some of it's edge to Viet Nam, Bangladesh, India and a few other countries in the area.
As to quality, that technology can be stolen, purchased or hired just as the Japanese did after the fiasco of their first exports here in the fifties and sixties.
Once they figured out how to do it right, they just did it and we see the results of that now in the sales figures that show a continual growth in market share for their products.
To close this chapter of my book, get over it. Within 3-4 years it is possible, maybe even probable that the best affordable automotive products out there for you to choose from will come from China. It may not last for long as those other countries I mention try to clone the idea but I for one see it coming. The Chinese treasury is awash in dollars and euros from the stuff it sells to us and Europe and other countries. The government is committed to building the next Industrial Empire and is willing to fund the effort. Sadly, something that our own administrations over the last 50 years seem to have had no interest in. We sell Boeing airplanes, some weapons, a bit of grain and up until recently a lot of IT software and knowledge.
Kind of sad, for I am of the age when I remember we owned not only our own automotive market but had over 50% of the world market for cars and trucks.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Murray; Jun 15, 2006 at 09:06 PM.
Really Old "Member"
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,362
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From: Kennesaw, Ga. USA
Thank you Jamz and Urban:
I obviously don't post much any more although I am on this thread as well as a few others on f150 a few times a day as a lurker.
At my age, my political views, and even my experiences do not seem to be in synch with the majority of the posters so I tend to stay out of those discussions.
International trade on the other hand, and particularly as that deals with the automotive business, is something I feel I know enough about to once in a while throw in a little "book".
In no way do I wish to give the impression I am peeing on anyone's shoes regarding their views on this subject, but the comments I read do indicate a sort of knee jerk reaction to something not many on this thread have any real world experience with. And...if you have spent your whole life in Pensacola or Los Angeles or Detroit or Bangor, there is no reason to expect you to have that experience.
I am very lucky in that after having spent 10 years working at car dealerships in California, I finished College and got a job with Volvo that eventually led to a 25 year journey over those four countries I mentioned, later with SAAB, that gave me perhaps a unique opportunity to learn how world trade works.
The first trip I made to Asia was to Taiwan in 1970 to a factory that made speakers for Volvo radios. The boxes for the speakers were made in a foundry that was fueled by coal pellets in a building that had no roof and the fires were fanned by little kids with big paddles.
The last trip I made was to southern China in 1991 where SAAB was sourcing some radio components. Even then, 15 years ago, the Chinese factory was light years ahead of the Taiwanese factory. Now, in the same area, they build Gateway or Dell computers to an acceptable world standard.
We do live in an ever changing world and I think from the perspective of history it will be better if we adapt than if we fight it.
I don't want to go off on a real tangent here, but I think that in general there will not be much of a role for American manufacturers to be in the "commodity" business in the future, including autos and trucks up to the entry luxury class. In that sense, I admire Cadillac and Chrysler-Daimler in general, for building and apparently successfully selling, niche and up scale vehicles that seem to appeal to Americans looking for something "American".
Said another way, the Chinese will likely out Hyundai Hyundia and out Kia Kia but that is probably where they will stay in terms of type of vehicle. They want to build millions, not thousands of vehicles and that should keep them in the entry-mid-entry luxury market. There is a lot of room for US companies to provide true "American" type cars that can be sold here and around the world that are not "commidity" vehicles as mentioned earlier.
Bed time.
Bill
I obviously don't post much any more although I am on this thread as well as a few others on f150 a few times a day as a lurker.
At my age, my political views, and even my experiences do not seem to be in synch with the majority of the posters so I tend to stay out of those discussions.
International trade on the other hand, and particularly as that deals with the automotive business, is something I feel I know enough about to once in a while throw in a little "book".
In no way do I wish to give the impression I am peeing on anyone's shoes regarding their views on this subject, but the comments I read do indicate a sort of knee jerk reaction to something not many on this thread have any real world experience with. And...if you have spent your whole life in Pensacola or Los Angeles or Detroit or Bangor, there is no reason to expect you to have that experience.
I am very lucky in that after having spent 10 years working at car dealerships in California, I finished College and got a job with Volvo that eventually led to a 25 year journey over those four countries I mentioned, later with SAAB, that gave me perhaps a unique opportunity to learn how world trade works.
The first trip I made to Asia was to Taiwan in 1970 to a factory that made speakers for Volvo radios. The boxes for the speakers were made in a foundry that was fueled by coal pellets in a building that had no roof and the fires were fanned by little kids with big paddles.
The last trip I made was to southern China in 1991 where SAAB was sourcing some radio components. Even then, 15 years ago, the Chinese factory was light years ahead of the Taiwanese factory. Now, in the same area, they build Gateway or Dell computers to an acceptable world standard.
We do live in an ever changing world and I think from the perspective of history it will be better if we adapt than if we fight it.
I don't want to go off on a real tangent here, but I think that in general there will not be much of a role for American manufacturers to be in the "commodity" business in the future, including autos and trucks up to the entry luxury class. In that sense, I admire Cadillac and Chrysler-Daimler in general, for building and apparently successfully selling, niche and up scale vehicles that seem to appeal to Americans looking for something "American".
Said another way, the Chinese will likely out Hyundai Hyundia and out Kia Kia but that is probably where they will stay in terms of type of vehicle. They want to build millions, not thousands of vehicles and that should keep them in the entry-mid-entry luxury market. There is a lot of room for US companies to provide true "American" type cars that can be sold here and around the world that are not "commidity" vehicles as mentioned earlier.
Bed time.
Bill
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 568
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From: Tustin,Ca
Hi Bill,
Your perspective is about dead on.
I just returned from China last week. I was giving technical seminars on how to build Automated Test Systems using mainly our product.
I was in 4 different cities, Beijing, Xi'an, Chengdu and Shanghai. They are very modern and clean cities. China is probably the most capitalistic country on this planet.
There is a very large German influence when it comes to vehicles. Mostly Volkswagen Passat (Santana) for private cars with KIA and Hyundai for taxis. They pay a 100% markup on any imported vehicle.
China's government is starting to crack down on knockoffs. They want to be a legitimate trade partner with their own products and this is one main thing that holds them back in the world market.
Buick is the only American auto manufacturer there. So you don't see any F-150s over there.
They are going all out to clean up the country for the 2008 Olympics. It will be when they show the new face of China and they are all very proud to do it.
The trip really dispelled alot of myths I had in my head. Again the media paints a grim and incorrect picture of the way others live.
Your perspective is about dead on.
I just returned from China last week. I was giving technical seminars on how to build Automated Test Systems using mainly our product.
I was in 4 different cities, Beijing, Xi'an, Chengdu and Shanghai. They are very modern and clean cities. China is probably the most capitalistic country on this planet.
There is a very large German influence when it comes to vehicles. Mostly Volkswagen Passat (Santana) for private cars with KIA and Hyundai for taxis. They pay a 100% markup on any imported vehicle.
China's government is starting to crack down on knockoffs. They want to be a legitimate trade partner with their own products and this is one main thing that holds them back in the world market.
Buick is the only American auto manufacturer there. So you don't see any F-150s over there.
They are going all out to clean up the country for the 2008 Olympics. It will be when they show the new face of China and they are all very proud to do it.
The trip really dispelled alot of myths I had in my head. Again the media paints a grim and incorrect picture of the way others live.
Really Old "Member"
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,362
Likes: 0
From: Kennesaw, Ga. USA
Thanks Canyonslicker
I appreciate the additional input and the perspective you gave us.
Not being all that smart, I did feel when I was last there fifteen years ago that this was likely to happen just by the amount of building that was going on. It was incredible that everywhere I went, high rise apartments for the workers were going up like corn in Nebraska and all around the apartments, factories of all shapes and sizes.
I suspect you saw that still going on during your trip.
And, yes, the Olympics is incredibly important to the Government, the people, the whole face of China for the near future. All of us know how industrious the Chinese-Americans have been here since the 1850's and the building of the Western half of our original railroad system. They worked 24/7/365, they put their kids through college, even the girls and they built businesses that thrived. That ethic is obviously present in China itself and the government being behind this drive for success pretty well assures it will happen one way or the other.
It is not necessarily pretty and they don't do things the way we do but now having embraced capitalism they will put an incredible amount of energy behind achieving international success and acceptance as an industrialized, capitalist country. Of course, with a Communist Government, which is almost an oxymoron but I think they will do it.
Now, we need to figure out what we do best in the world here so we can export those things to the newly rich or middle class Chinese. In order to be internationally accepted as a true trading partner, they will fairly soon have to drop or eliminate import taxes on a wide range of goods.
Hmm. Lincoln Mark LT's, Cadillac Escalades, Dodge Chargers, Shelby Mustangs. Country & Western music, Rap, Jazz. Porno films (I am told we do that better than anyone else). Various foodstuffs, they still have major flooding problems and occasional shortages. Better start working on this.
Got to run but should probably mention that I was born in China, Pekin in those days, now Beijing, due to my Dad being stationed there 1937-1940 with the Marines. I suppose this might have something to do with my interest in the area.
Regards
Bill
Not being all that smart, I did feel when I was last there fifteen years ago that this was likely to happen just by the amount of building that was going on. It was incredible that everywhere I went, high rise apartments for the workers were going up like corn in Nebraska and all around the apartments, factories of all shapes and sizes.
I suspect you saw that still going on during your trip.
And, yes, the Olympics is incredibly important to the Government, the people, the whole face of China for the near future. All of us know how industrious the Chinese-Americans have been here since the 1850's and the building of the Western half of our original railroad system. They worked 24/7/365, they put their kids through college, even the girls and they built businesses that thrived. That ethic is obviously present in China itself and the government being behind this drive for success pretty well assures it will happen one way or the other.
It is not necessarily pretty and they don't do things the way we do but now having embraced capitalism they will put an incredible amount of energy behind achieving international success and acceptance as an industrialized, capitalist country. Of course, with a Communist Government, which is almost an oxymoron but I think they will do it.
Now, we need to figure out what we do best in the world here so we can export those things to the newly rich or middle class Chinese. In order to be internationally accepted as a true trading partner, they will fairly soon have to drop or eliminate import taxes on a wide range of goods.
Hmm. Lincoln Mark LT's, Cadillac Escalades, Dodge Chargers, Shelby Mustangs. Country & Western music, Rap, Jazz. Porno films (I am told we do that better than anyone else). Various foodstuffs, they still have major flooding problems and occasional shortages. Better start working on this.
Got to run but should probably mention that I was born in China, Pekin in those days, now Beijing, due to my Dad being stationed there 1937-1940 with the Marines. I suppose this might have something to do with my interest in the area.
Regards
Bill
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 1,209
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From: Baton Rouge, La
Originally Posted by Peacemaker
I saw an auto commercial the other day that was advertising a car called the "YARIS". I thought they said Taurus at first, but I quickly realized it was a Japanese auto commercial. Who would buy something called a YARIS?
Who would buy something called a YARIS?Yaris = New toyota model. Nothing more
On another note, 20 grand isint cheap. I only paid 18k for my F150
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Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Hammer Lane
Originally Posted by Bill Murray
Said another way, the Chinese will likely out Hyundai Hyundia and out Kia Kia but that is probably where they will stay in terms of type of vehicle. They want to build millions, not thousands of vehicles and that should keep them in the entry-mid-entry luxury market. There is a lot of room for US companies to provide true "American" type cars that can be sold here and around the world that are not "commidity" vehicles as mentioned earlier.
Bed time.
Bill
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,867
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From: NH
George Soros, the billionaire who bankrolled Moveon.org, is considering pouring hundreds of millions into a Chinese state automaker with plans to begin dumping cheap exports on the U.S. market next year, WND has learned.
You just gotta love these nut case extremist liberals who proclaim to “care about the people”
I LOVE IT!!!