And I would say that probably has happened, or a variant thereof. It's sorta like someone following YOU around - you wouldn't like it either. Cops are even more annoyed because their job, although different from day to day, has a lot of similarity. One of them being that the same punks end up causing the same **** day in and day out. Just about the same with any job though.

 

Be very careful with that statement. Many states have passed "stalking" laws to prevent that type of harressment. Written for citizens, but works for Law Enforcement as well.

 

Wouldn't count on it. It depends on the situation.

 

It seems like in one thread we are being bashed, in another we are being praised, so I guess it's like they say "dammed if we do and dammed if we don't"
its not illegal to watch. but i've been on many scenes where the situation was crazy then calm, family member/ friend/ spectator shows up and BOOM fight is back on.
the perception most people have about the police is bad, because the only contact they have had was when the were issued a ticket for somethig they consider stupid, however if that same person would get to know a "cop". they would learn that we have to deal with the same problems as the rest of the public, domestic issues, money, kids, STRESS, as well as being in Law Enforcement and all the related issues with that.
we are not robots that make perfect decisions all the time, but we do what we have to do in that micro second of time to go home at the end of our shift.

 

I understand what you're saying, but it's not like law enforcement can claim to be blameless for the way they are percieved by the public when you can find so many cases where law enforcement was wrong, proven wrong in court and others still come to their defense.

Instead of bemoaning the misconceptions the public may or may not have about law enforcement, why not work to eliminate those elements that fuel those misconceptions?

 

Video's of police actions have cleared hundreds of false allegations against police for "unnecessary force" from people thinking they can sue "Deep pockets". The media does not find this type of news "worthy". It's more juicy when Joe officer steps out of line, then when Joe bagadonuts breaks an officers nose during an arrest. For me, its an "on the job injury", found on page 30 of section C in the Sunday Times. If I break his nose, he sues for 1.5 million, and it's front page on tomorrows Times. But I'm sure Kretinus will come up with some witty comeback.

 

True. It's amazing to me the number of people that commit a crime and then not take responsibility for their own actions. The Cop is always the bad guy. The suspect is a "victim" in his mind. He is always being picked on. So any chance he gets to bash a Police Officer, he does. No one's claiming that all Officer's are perfect, some make mistakes, some just get caught up in the moment and lose control. It happens. No Police Officer wants to get in a bad situation. It's not like the Deputy in San Diego was sitting in his car thinking, "I'll sit here until I get a chance to get involved in a high speed pursuit, and if I get lucky, I'll get to shoot someone".

The average Police Officer who gets involved in a "justified" shooting only last about 5 years on the Force before he/she retires. No one, and I mean no one, can take the life of another human being without it affecting them the rest of their life. That goes for combat vets as well as Police Officers. People in the medical field who have to deal with death on a daily basis have a similar mind set about their patients.

A very good book on this subject is by Lt. Col Dave Grossman(USA retired). The book is "On killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society.

As a West Point psychology professor and professor of military science, Grossman trrains medical and health professionals on how to deal with and prevent killing. He trained mental health professionals in the aftermath of the Jonesboro shooting, an has been an expeert witness and consultant in several murder cases, including that of Timothy McVeigh and Michael Carneal.

Mr. kretinus,

It is obvious that you have either been arrested in the past, or have gotten several tickets. Of the thousands of Police Officers on duty in this country everyday, not a single one is out to get you. The only ones that may even know your name are in Iowa. And if it's been awhile, those Officers may have already forgotten your name.

I really am sorry for the negative attitude you have for Police Officers. And you can trust that everyday of my life I do what I can to better the image and perception of Police Officers. But I am only one. Along with the guys and gals on this website, just maybe we can help to clear up some of those misconceptions.

But you have to open your mind and listen to everything. Not just what you want to hear.

 

I agree in part, it goes both ways obviously, and the media caters to what sells, however considering the number of "reality" shows that deal with law enforcement, aside from the 6PM news, there is lots of coverage of the good guys doing good things.

The flipside of that would be, when joebagadonuts flips out on a cop, he gets treated far more harshly than when joe officer steps out of line. Would you at least agree that when joe officer steps out of line it's at least as serious as joebagadonuts doing the same?

Looking through past news articles, it would appear that cops are cleared of wrong doing at least as often as they are sanctioned for it if not more often. But again, I agree in part that there is a media bias based on what sells.

A casual dismissal of the real issues I'm discussing represents the exact attitude of law enforcement that exacerbates the problem. Have you considered that people wouldn't tend to focus so much on the negative issues if law enforcement wasn't so determined to minimize them?

We're having a debate on the reinstatement of the death penalty in our state. One proposal would essentially make killing a law officer under any circumstances a capitol offense, but a cop who unlawfully kills a citizen would not be subjected to capitol punishment. Most reasonable people would argue that if killing a law enforcement agent is so serious as to require the death penalty, then certainly a law enforcement offical who is sworn to uphold the law and protect citizens who breaks his oath and the law should be held to an equal standard.

Law enforcement in this state doesn't seem to agree with that.

 

Sorry, but no where on this forum will you find me whining about the injustice of a ticket I've recieved. I have however had a few experiences with police who overstepped their lawful authority, and I have prevailed on the complaints I filed in response. Neither do I believe that cops are out to get me.

However I do not automatically assume that any officer I encounter is a nice friendly guy just doing his job out of a sincere desire to serve the public, I treat all encounters with law enforcement as professionally as I would a client. I expect them to follow the law as much as they expect me to.

I don't argue with them, but if I know I'm in the right, I will say so, because quite frankly, it's waste of my time and the states time for a cop to write a ticket knowing that it won't stand in court and I have received a few of those because some cop doesn't have the professionalism to admit he's wrong, one didn't even have the ***** to show up for court, which didn't make the judge too happy.

I know a few cops and patrolmen across the state and the country, a friend of mine is an LA County deputy. I have this kind of discussion with cops I know all the time, it always comes, they don't seem to take it as anything than a discussion of problems that do exist. Sorry but my attitude about law enforcement comes from more than just a traffic ticket, it isn't an irrational attitude, it's a reasonable one based on the real issues and problems being discussed.



I don't have a negative attitude, I have a rational one. You seem to think that putting a badge on somehow makes someone entitled to respect. Respect is earned and there are a lot of cops I have respect for, respect that they have earned, there are some I distrust, a sentiment they too have earned because they broke the law and couldn't be man enough to admit it, or they can't handle having their profession held to criticism. deserved or not.

Let's see, one has called me an idiot because I disagree with our countries drug policies, another called me a moron and questioned my character for the same thing. I assume these are not the people whom you hope will help open my mind?

I have never said all cops are bad, I have only stated that one should not assume they are all good. I do not advocate screaming at cops for a ticket (you will find my name attatched to many letters to my reps in support of laws making it a crime to treat a cop with less than professional courtesy, in Iowa it's called harassment of a public official), neither do I advocate laying down when officers cross the line.

 

You said:

And then you said:

The system works.

The majority of Officers will not take a chance on losing their job to "defend or remain silent". We have family's to take care of. If an Officer makes a mistake, then he stands up and takes it. The majority of all criminal acts that are conducted by Law Enforcement are discovered and delt with by the parent agency. No one waits for the "video" or media input. I will state that very few Officers will “arm chair quarterback” a situation involving another Officer. We are taught to deal with evidence. Opinions don’t count in a court of law except from the jury.

Obviously you have filed complaints against Officers and have prevailed. As have many others who have pled not guilty in a trial, and won the case. That is your right as a citizen of this country.

It’s great isn’t it.

The constitution, while not perfect, and not always interpreted correctly, is a great document, and a wonderful foundation from which we live. I have traveled and lived in foreign country’s that do not have such a document. Those countries have what is referred to as a ‘Police State” You and I do not want that in our country.

The arresting Officer is just a very small part of the judicial system. The laws are written by the Legislature, approved by the people, and then enforced by the Officers that are hired to do so.

 

I honestly think that it depends on the officer and the incident if he/she is cool with having bystanders....I come from a family of police officers (father undercover DEA agent killed leaving the air port in Newark NJ back in 2000)
mom retired Marion city police officer...Hearing stories from both of them, sometimes they would rather have people watching them incase something does happen and backup isn't there yet, there is probably a citizen that is willing to step in and help in any event.
Myself personally, I watch a drug bust here in Baltimore Friday night, and one of the officers came over and talked with the crowd of people for a few minutes..
Hell they had no problem with us being there...because it showed there presence in the community and the younger kids got a chance to see how these two big shots lived good for a little while, but in the end they lost everything and will be in jail for a long time....

 

Well said.

 

Not all the time and the failures should never be tolerated in the least.

Obviously you have filed complaints against Officers and have prevailed.

As have many others who have pled not guilty in a trial, and won the case.

That is your right as a citizen of this country.

It’s great isn’t it.[/quote]

The time to address the problem is before it happens, because every time it happens, the system get's a little bit more broken. A citizen should never have to prevail in a complaint or trial because the police broke the law, it's a good thing he has that venue if needed, the ideal is that it not be neccessary in the first place.

No offense, but in this area, we're seeing an influx of young officers, many out of the military and their the ones generating the complaints around here and it appears to be because of the some basic flaws in their attitudes in their jobs and what authority they feel they have. How is the problem being addressed? Training?

Contact Ch 13 in Iowa, they have video of the police academy training where the instructor asks the class what it means if a person refuses a search request. The class responds "They're guilty". Funny, the courts have repeatedly said that interpretation is not lawful so why is it being taught?

What's the difference between having a Consititution that is ignored and twisted to justify any agenda and not having one at all? It's a simple matter of scale, but scale does not negate the end result.

Apathy is the enemy of democracy and freedom. Many unjust laws have ultimately been overturned because law enforcement was willing to speak out. I'm sorry but when I hear police say they don't think a law is good but won't say it publicly, I have to question why. Anyone for that matter in the same circumstance.

Your job is to enforce laws, but you're not prohibted from fighting bad laws either.

 

Every organization has its bad apples. Just like a few people from the 'projects' can taint an entire race, a few bad cops can give them all a bad name. The truth is, they have to deal with more trouble and screwy situations than the average Joe. I can understand their attitudes. Hell, they pull someone over for speeding, and the next thing they know is that there can be a shotgun in their face. They have to remain cautious and ever viligent on the job, where as the general public just worries about their own non-life threatning problems. Having served as Navy police at one point in my career, I can understand what they deal with. You deal with societies bad apples everday, and see if your attitude doesn't change then...

 

Very good point. We see it as well. And yes we are trying with the training. Unfortunately sometimes it works and sometimes it don't. But I have seen that in the majority of cases, the training works. Just last week I attended a seminar on training. As a Force on Force instructor we prefer to see and correct the "attitudes" during a training session instead of during a board of inquiry, or a trial. But just like your predisposed negative attitude toward Law Enforcement, we also have to deal with a person coming into Law Enforcement with predisposed attitudes of their own. Some get washed out in the academy, some during Field Training, and some during the first year probation. Others make it through and we never see the problem until it manifest itself during a situation that the Officer never encountered before. But it is rare. Not the norm.

Wasn't there for the class. So I don't know everything that was said. But we don't teach it. Most of the time if an Officer asked for permission to search it is because he/she has noted some indicator that would arouse suspicion. And if enough indicators are noted, then other methods would be utilized if availible and practical. I have been refused a request for a consent search and watched as the person drove away. Oh well. If it is nothing more than a hunch, gotta let it go. With all that said, I know Officers that do have the atitude of which you speak. I don't like it either.