More Katrina 'victims' bashing...
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I will voice one small disagreement with Burt. Louisiana DID have a comprehensive emergency plan, the local and state officials simply ignored (or forgot about) it.
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/plansindex.htm
Neal had this to say about it:
edited to add: All of this is NOT a surprise to anyone in the Louisiana Governer's office or the N.O. mayor's office. Here's a link to a comprehensive, 5 day article in the N.O. Times-Picayune originally published in June 2002.
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/plansindex.htm
Neal had this to say about it:
I have now reviewed a copy of the State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan. This 45-page document says that "The Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation and Sheltering Plan is intended to provide a framework within which the parishes can coordinate their actions with State government in order to deal with a catastrophic hurricane."
Here are some of the items I found in this operations plan:
The evacuation plan states that "Local transportation resources should be marshaled and public transportation plans implemented as needed. Announce the location of staging areas for people who need transportation. Public transportation will concentrate on moving people from the staging areas to safety in host parishes with priority given to people with special needs." It also says that the Governor will "Mobilize State transportation resources to aid in the evacuation of people who have mobility and/or health problems. Deploy to support risk area parishes."
It certainly looks like it was the responsibility of the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans to make sure that people, and that includes poor people, were evacuated. It didn't happen. So ... it's Bush's fault?
Here are some of the items I found in this operations plan:
The evacuation plan states that "Local transportation resources should be marshaled and public transportation plans implemented as needed. Announce the location of staging areas for people who need transportation. Public transportation will concentrate on moving people from the staging areas to safety in host parishes with priority given to people with special needs." It also says that the Governor will "Mobilize State transportation resources to aid in the evacuation of people who have mobility and/or health problems. Deploy to support risk area parishes."
It certainly looks like it was the responsibility of the State of Louisiana and the City of New Orleans to make sure that people, and that includes poor people, were evacuated. It didn't happen. So ... it's Bush's fault?
edited to add: All of this is NOT a surprise to anyone in the Louisiana Governer's office or the N.O. mayor's office. Here's a link to a comprehensive, 5 day article in the N.O. Times-Picayune originally published in June 2002.
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/
Last edited by RockyJSquirrel; Sep 10, 2005 at 03:23 PM.
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From: NH
Originally Posted by MnFatz
These aren't undisputed facts. Can you please site your sources? I bet it won't take you a few extra minutes to do so.
-Fatz
-Fatz
Would it also be fair to assume that you do not believe it to be local and state government’s responsibility to provide first responders, such as police, fire, and paramedic services to its citizens?
With that said, I could then assume that you believe it is the federal governments role and responsibility to provide, pay and maintain police, fire, and paramedic services to the states?
To take it one step further, it appears you believe that it is the federal government’s role and responsibility to provide and maintain first responders for any emergency services to the states. With that being the case why is there any need for local police, fire, and paramedic services? Also, why would any citizen in any state have to pay local and state taxes in any form? I don’t see a need for that since, again in your mindset, the local and state governments have NO role or responsibility to play for their citizens. Actually since there is no need for any local and state control why are there even local and state representatives, or their respected government?
If that is truly your mindset then perhaps you are correct that they are indeed NOT the undisputed facts. For most, the vast majority of Americans, those undisputed facts I posted are just that “undisputed”…
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Posts: 1,376
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As recently as 2 months ago, Louisiana officials were still in the midst of major disagreements (bickering) over 'who does what' in the event of a major hurricane. In my tiny little opinion, everybody wants to be in charge but nobody wants to actually be responsible. Notice how certain officials sound so authoritative when there isn't actually a crisis going on. But none of them stepped up to the plate when thousands of lives were on the line.
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/t-p/?/...514225730.html
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/t-p/?/...514225730.html
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Posts: 4,867
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From: NH
Originally Posted by RockyJSquirrel
I will voice one small disagreement with Burt. Louisiana DID have a comprehensive emergency plan, the local and state officials simply ignored (or forgot about) it.
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/plansindex.htm
Neal had this to say about it:
edited to add: All of this is NOT a surprise to anyone in the Louisiana Governer's office or the N.O. mayor's office. Here's a link to a comprehensive, 5 day article in the N.O. Times-Picayune originally published in June 2002.
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/plansindex.htm
Neal had this to say about it:
edited to add: All of this is NOT a surprise to anyone in the Louisiana Governer's office or the N.O. mayor's office. Here's a link to a comprehensive, 5 day article in the N.O. Times-Picayune originally published in June 2002.
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/
While there may have been something written on paper worth about 0.50 cents that sounds comprehensive, you know as well as I do, that words mean nothing and action is what counts.
Therefore, in my own humble opinion, there was no comprehensive evacuation plan for the citizens of NO since either nobody in charge could comprehend what it actually stated or were just plan illiterate to begin with…
However, in MnFatz defense, it doesn’t really matter if there was a comprehensive plan or not since it was not the local and state government’s responsibility for the welfare of their citizens ever.
Bighersh Alter-Ego
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From: 33.02N / 96.66W
You guys are going binary again... It's more complicated than On/Off, Yes/No, 1/0...
Did Louisiana have a Plan? Yes.
Did New Orleans have a plan? Yes.
Is it Bush's fault that the federal response was so slow? Yes.
Is it FEMA's fault for not coming through? Yes.
---------------------------
Now, Did Louisiana's plan work? No- the reason why it didn't work is because it relies on people to make it happen.
Did New Orleans' plan work? No: Same reason as above, people. You guys saw as well as I did all those buses sitting there flooded that COULD have taken people to shelter... Why were they sitting there? Because people drive buses; they aren't run by computer. The people that drive those buses were busy saving their own ***, and the asses of their families... It's hard to drive a bus when you're busy saving your own ***.
Plan B: Those that cannot escape- go to the Superdome...
A theoretically sound idea that turned out to be bad. Scientists believe that high wind will less adversely effect a round object (Such as the superdome) because there is no flat surface for the wind to act against... Plus the dome was probably thought to be the strongest building in New Orleans.
Plan B part II: Use the convention center for shelter. The convention center is right on the river... Not a mile away, not 100 yards away, right on the river. Why would you move people TOWARDS water when a hurricane is coming? FEMA didn't know that people were in the conv. center because they too thought doing so to be illogical. I guess in this case, Ray Nagin didn't communicate his intentions to anyone...
Is it Bush's fault? Yes, but only at a high-level and in a general sense- Bush cannot be blamed specifically. When you're the President and there is a the threat of the total devastation of a major city in your country- regardless of who is responsible for responding first- you better damn-well have a plan in place too. Of course, no one has ever had to mount such a large recovery & rescue attempt before in modern history- so I give Bush credit as having to be a pioneer in this aspect. There was no template to follow so naturally, there will be mistakes...
Is it FEMA's fault for not coming through? Yes.
FEMA was headed by a man with no practical experience in the job he was given. It's not his fault for taking the job; but he was appointed by the President; so the blame there- I'm sorry, lies with Bush.
FEMA is not some organization with assets on standby to swoop in and make everything better. FEMA is nothing more than a think tank, and some project managers. Asset management is what they are truly. So, I don't fault Brown as much as I fault the man that hired him; simply because it was impossible for Brown to do his job with the local services being as broken as the were.
If anybody needs their *** kicked its: Ray Nagin
Being a public official (mayor) a certain degree of poise is expected. To be on national TV talking *****, cursing, and showing-out (grandstanding) is in my view- only a show for the people of New Orleans to cover the fact that he screwed up, badly. He didn't expect it to be this bad, but as a leader- you must plan for the worse... There should have been a plan for evacuation, what the people needed when they left should have been well known or at least communicated to those people. No way should a city the size of New Orleans only have 1,500 police officers. That means that should all Hale break loose; you have 1 cop for every 333 people. With 6 bullets; you're still out numbered pretty badly. The cops should have been expected to stay; as were the firefighters, and paramedics. That does not seem to have happened.
---------------------------------
I disagree with the statement that there was no first response at a state & local level. There was a response- but since there was an estimated 50,000 people in New Orleans; with only 2/3rd of the police force remaining (1,000) and probably similarly reduced firefighters and paramedics- How well can 1,000 or so people cover an area the size of New Orleans in a timely manner? They can't...
And, just like there was mention that the FEDS have no police, firefighters, EMT's, etc to respond to something like that- neither does a state: aside from the state police who mainly protect our roads and rural areas...
Did Louisiana have a Plan? Yes.
Did New Orleans have a plan? Yes.
Is it Bush's fault that the federal response was so slow? Yes.
Is it FEMA's fault for not coming through? Yes.
---------------------------
Now, Did Louisiana's plan work? No- the reason why it didn't work is because it relies on people to make it happen.
Did New Orleans' plan work? No: Same reason as above, people. You guys saw as well as I did all those buses sitting there flooded that COULD have taken people to shelter... Why were they sitting there? Because people drive buses; they aren't run by computer. The people that drive those buses were busy saving their own ***, and the asses of their families... It's hard to drive a bus when you're busy saving your own ***.
Plan B: Those that cannot escape- go to the Superdome...
A theoretically sound idea that turned out to be bad. Scientists believe that high wind will less adversely effect a round object (Such as the superdome) because there is no flat surface for the wind to act against... Plus the dome was probably thought to be the strongest building in New Orleans.
Plan B part II: Use the convention center for shelter. The convention center is right on the river... Not a mile away, not 100 yards away, right on the river. Why would you move people TOWARDS water when a hurricane is coming? FEMA didn't know that people were in the conv. center because they too thought doing so to be illogical. I guess in this case, Ray Nagin didn't communicate his intentions to anyone...
Is it Bush's fault? Yes, but only at a high-level and in a general sense- Bush cannot be blamed specifically. When you're the President and there is a the threat of the total devastation of a major city in your country- regardless of who is responsible for responding first- you better damn-well have a plan in place too. Of course, no one has ever had to mount such a large recovery & rescue attempt before in modern history- so I give Bush credit as having to be a pioneer in this aspect. There was no template to follow so naturally, there will be mistakes...
Is it FEMA's fault for not coming through? Yes.
FEMA was headed by a man with no practical experience in the job he was given. It's not his fault for taking the job; but he was appointed by the President; so the blame there- I'm sorry, lies with Bush.
FEMA is not some organization with assets on standby to swoop in and make everything better. FEMA is nothing more than a think tank, and some project managers. Asset management is what they are truly. So, I don't fault Brown as much as I fault the man that hired him; simply because it was impossible for Brown to do his job with the local services being as broken as the were.
If anybody needs their *** kicked its: Ray Nagin
Being a public official (mayor) a certain degree of poise is expected. To be on national TV talking *****, cursing, and showing-out (grandstanding) is in my view- only a show for the people of New Orleans to cover the fact that he screwed up, badly. He didn't expect it to be this bad, but as a leader- you must plan for the worse... There should have been a plan for evacuation, what the people needed when they left should have been well known or at least communicated to those people. No way should a city the size of New Orleans only have 1,500 police officers. That means that should all Hale break loose; you have 1 cop for every 333 people. With 6 bullets; you're still out numbered pretty badly. The cops should have been expected to stay; as were the firefighters, and paramedics. That does not seem to have happened.
---------------------------------
I disagree with the statement that there was no first response at a state & local level. There was a response- but since there was an estimated 50,000 people in New Orleans; with only 2/3rd of the police force remaining (1,000) and probably similarly reduced firefighters and paramedics- How well can 1,000 or so people cover an area the size of New Orleans in a timely manner? They can't...
And, just like there was mention that the FEDS have no police, firefighters, EMT's, etc to respond to something like that- neither does a state: aside from the state police who mainly protect our roads and rural areas...
Last edited by cia-agent; Sep 10, 2005 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Spellcheck
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Here is a convoluted, twisted report published in the NY Times giving facts about State and local shortcomings but trying to twist them in such a way as to make it sound like it's all the Fed's fault. Gov. Blanco sat on her thumbs for 3 days before mandating the use of school buses, but by that time it was too late. But it's still the Fed's fault. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/na...gewanted=print
If you can't get signed in to view the article, here's the first couple paragraphs:
Federal officials are 'hesitant', while state officials are 'beseiged'.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/na...gewanted=print
If you can't get signed in to view the article, here's the first couple paragraphs:
The governor of Louisiana was "blistering mad." It was the third night after Hurricane Katrina drowned New Orleans, and Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco needed buses to rescue thousands of people from the fetid Superdome and convention center. But only a fraction of the 500 vehicles promised by federal authorities had arrived.
Ms. Blanco burst into the state's emergency center in Baton Rouge. "Does anybody in this building know anything about buses?" she recalled crying out.
They were an obvious linchpin for evacuating a city where nearly 100,000 people had no cars. Yet the federal, state and local officials who had failed to round up buses in advance were now in a frantic hunt. It would be two more days before they found enough to empty the shelters.
The official autopsies of the flawed response to the catastrophic storm have already begun in Washington, and may offer lessons for dealing with a terrorist attack or even another hurricane this season. But an initial examination of Katrina's aftermath demonstrates the extent to which the federal government failed to fulfill the pledge it made after the Sept. 11 attacks to face domestic threats as a unified, seamless force.
Instead, the crisis in New Orleans deepened because of a virtual standoff between hesitant federal officials and besieged authorities in Louisiana, interviews with dozens of officials show.
Federal Emergency Management Agency officials expected the state and city to direct their own efforts and ask for help as needed. Leaders in Louisiana and New Orleans, though, were so overwhelmed by the scale of the storm that they were not only unable to manage the crisis, but they were not always exactly sure what they needed. While local officials assumed that Washington would provide rapid and considerable aid, federal officials, weighing legalities and logistics, proceeded at a deliberate pace.
FEMA appears to have underestimated the storm, despite an extraordinary warning from the National Hurricane Center that it could cause "human suffering incredible by modern standards." The agency dispatched only 7 of its 28 urban search and rescue teams to the area before the storm hit and sent no workers at all into New Orleans until after Katrina passed on Monday, Aug. 29.
Ms. Blanco burst into the state's emergency center in Baton Rouge. "Does anybody in this building know anything about buses?" she recalled crying out.
They were an obvious linchpin for evacuating a city where nearly 100,000 people had no cars. Yet the federal, state and local officials who had failed to round up buses in advance were now in a frantic hunt. It would be two more days before they found enough to empty the shelters.
The official autopsies of the flawed response to the catastrophic storm have already begun in Washington, and may offer lessons for dealing with a terrorist attack or even another hurricane this season. But an initial examination of Katrina's aftermath demonstrates the extent to which the federal government failed to fulfill the pledge it made after the Sept. 11 attacks to face domestic threats as a unified, seamless force.
Instead, the crisis in New Orleans deepened because of a virtual standoff between hesitant federal officials and besieged authorities in Louisiana, interviews with dozens of officials show.
Federal Emergency Management Agency officials expected the state and city to direct their own efforts and ask for help as needed. Leaders in Louisiana and New Orleans, though, were so overwhelmed by the scale of the storm that they were not only unable to manage the crisis, but they were not always exactly sure what they needed. While local officials assumed that Washington would provide rapid and considerable aid, federal officials, weighing legalities and logistics, proceeded at a deliberate pace.
FEMA appears to have underestimated the storm, despite an extraordinary warning from the National Hurricane Center that it could cause "human suffering incredible by modern standards." The agency dispatched only 7 of its 28 urban search and rescue teams to the area before the storm hit and sent no workers at all into New Orleans until after Katrina passed on Monday, Aug. 29.
Last edited by RockyJSquirrel; Sep 10, 2005 at 04:57 PM.
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From: Gulf Coast
CIA--I have to disagree with one of your statements. The one where you state Brown had no experience is slightly misleading. He led the relief efforts for all four hurricane's in Florida last year. He had extensive experience with "minor" catastrophies, probably more hands on experience than anyone else doing the job.
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Fort Worth Tx
Originally Posted by Faster150
i think all of the refugee's without jobs that have been living off welfair should be signed up for the national gaurd and set for Boarder patrol status... make themselves useful and stop sucking up tax dollars...
Bighersh Alter-Ego
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 178
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From: 33.02N / 96.66W
Originally Posted by 1depd
CIA--I have to disagree with one of your statements. The one where you state Brown had no experience is slightly misleading. He led the relief efforts for all four hurricane's in Florida last year. He had extensive experience with "minor" catastrophies, probably more hands on experience than anyone else doing the job.
Agreed- no one had experience for something of this magnitude. I'll give you that one back!
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More info about how ill-prepared MS and LA governments really were. Florida officials were blown away by their neighbor states' lack of preparedness.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/c...nse_0910.html#
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/c...nse_0910.html#
Bighersh Alter-Ego
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 178
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From: 33.02N / 96.66W
Originally Posted by RockyJSquirrel
More info about how ill-prepared MS and LA governments really were. Florida officials were blown away by their neighbor states' lack of preparedness.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/c...nse_0910.html#
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/c...nse_0910.html#
I think Florida needs to shut the fock-up too... That's a whole different ball game... Can we ever be prepared for the long-term displacement of over 1,000,000 people? Many of those people aren't going back to New Orleans... If they've gone somewhere, found a good job, etc.. Why go back? Especially if you didn't own anything (renters)..
The only reason Andrew didn't wipe the floor with Miami Florida is because it's not below sea level...
If it were, Miami would have been a dress rehearsal for New Orleans...
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From: Chicago
Originally Posted by 01 XLT Sport
So it appears you are of the mindset that local and state governments have no responsibility to the welfare of their citizens?
Would it also be fair to assume that you do not believe it to be local and state government’s responsibility to provide first responders, such as police, fire, and paramedic services to its citizens?
With that said, I could then assume that you believe it is the federal governments role and responsibility to provide, pay and maintain police, fire, and paramedic services to the states?
To take it one step further, it appears you believe that it is the federal government’s role and responsibility to provide and maintain first responders for any emergency services to the states. With that being the case why is there any need for local police, fire, and paramedic services? Also, why would any citizen in any state have to pay local and state taxes in any form? I don’t see a need for that since, again in your mindset, the local and state governments have NO role or responsibility to play for their citizens. Actually since there is no need for any local and state control why are there even local and state representatives, or their respected government?
If that is truly your mindset then perhaps you are correct that they are indeed NOT the undisputed facts. For most, the vast majority of Americans, those undisputed facts I posted are just that “undisputed”…
Would it also be fair to assume that you do not believe it to be local and state government’s responsibility to provide first responders, such as police, fire, and paramedic services to its citizens?
With that said, I could then assume that you believe it is the federal governments role and responsibility to provide, pay and maintain police, fire, and paramedic services to the states?
To take it one step further, it appears you believe that it is the federal government’s role and responsibility to provide and maintain first responders for any emergency services to the states. With that being the case why is there any need for local police, fire, and paramedic services? Also, why would any citizen in any state have to pay local and state taxes in any form? I don’t see a need for that since, again in your mindset, the local and state governments have NO role or responsibility to play for their citizens. Actually since there is no need for any local and state control why are there even local and state representatives, or their respected government?
If that is truly your mindset then perhaps you are correct that they are indeed NOT the undisputed facts. For most, the vast majority of Americans, those undisputed facts I posted are just that “undisputed”…
If you have a few extra minutes, can you post links supporting your 'undisputed facts' for the benefit of the rest of us? Come on; teach us something.
-Fatz
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Originally Posted by MnFatz
No, I'm of the mindset that you haven't established this was the case. Referring to your own beliefs as undiputed facts is the intellectual equivalent of writing bad checks. Any conclusions you draw from them are worthless.
If you have a few extra minutes, can you post links supporting your 'undisputed facts' for the benefit of the rest of us? Come on; teach us something.
-Fatz
If you have a few extra minutes, can you post links supporting your 'undisputed facts' for the benefit of the rest of us? Come on; teach us something.
-Fatz
And to try and lighten the mood a little bit, here's a link to a positive story:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakin...10.html#078771
If you read through the last couple days worth of stories, you will notice a distinct upbeat tone and lots of positive actions are taking place. A lot of progress is being made.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,867
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From: NH
Originally Posted by MnFatz
No, I'm of the mindset that you haven't established this was the case. Referring to your own beliefs as undiputed facts is the intellectual equivalent of writing bad checks. Any conclusions you draw from them are worthless.
If you have a few extra minutes, can you post links supporting your 'undisputed facts' for the benefit of the rest of us? Come on; teach us something.
-Fatz
If you have a few extra minutes, can you post links supporting your 'undisputed facts' for the benefit of the rest of us? Come on; teach us something.
-Fatz
Ok, let me try to make this very simple and see if some can follow this logic to a logical conclusion.
It’s a beautiful day outside and I decide to take my BBQ grill outside to make me and some friends some tasty food. I light it up and there’s a small fire contained within the unit, as it is designed to be.
While this controlled fire in the BBQ grill is taking place my friends and I decide to go into the garage so I can show them some things. While I am in there the BBQ grill falls over and starts some brush on fire.
With me so far? Now here is where it gets interesting. I try to put it out but for some reason my hose is not working, no water. I then go inside and decide to call the local fire department since it appears it’s a little more then I can handle.
They respond but it takes them a good 10 – 15 minutes to get here and by that time mine and a few other structures are completely engulfed in flames, a total loss of our properties, that fire spreads fast…
Ok, now for, hopefully, a logical conclusion to a logical question:
”Who is at fault for the fire and the destruction it caused?”
Now before anyone answers remember this answer is the same answer for NO which goes to prove my undisputed facts, at least to anyone willing to understand and accept logic…
Last edited by 01 XLT Sport; Sep 11, 2005 at 10:15 AM.
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Seems like NO mayor Ray Nagin is still trying to blame the feds while biting his tongue when asked about Gov. Blanco's lack of leadership. Seems that "there is still a dispute as to who had ultimate authority" in the disaster area.
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakin...11.html#078833
Hey Fatz, you still want more links? I'll keep posting them as I see them.
BTW, where are your links? Hersh, how about yours?
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakin...11.html#078833
Hey Fatz, you still want more links? I'll keep posting them as I see them.
BTW, where are your links? Hersh, how about yours?