You know, I've thought this for quite awhile now...not seeing how they can keep this up forever. What I'm talking about is the benefits and wages unions demand from automakers and other employers. In today's very competitive market, it would serve them well to be a little more realistic in the type of wages and benefits they're seeking. Otherwise, they just might union themselves right out of a job! It's better to have slightly less pay and a slightly higher co-pay for medical benefits (if necessary) than no job at all. The second link I found while looking for more info on this subject. I didn't even know about the paying people to sit around on their butt thing! Good lord!

Read the whole thing - makes sense to me...
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...4260315/-1/all

And THEN, you've got stuff like this going on. How crazy is this!?...
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/...e_20050128.htm

"The number of workers in the jobs bank ebbs and flows through the years, typically growing when sales at Detroit's three automakers slide. Exact numbers are hard to come by because the automakers don't like to broadcast that they are paying people not to work and the unions and workers also don't like the negative attention"

 

Yup. This is why a new F150 pickup truck can sticker as high as $40K. That's $25K for the truck and $15K for the union guys sitting on their a$$es.

 

Before this turns bad...this isn't an anti-union thread. It's more of a wake up, have a little sense type of thread. I just think people need to be realistic about the market and how consumers chose products. Just when the big 3 start making nice looking and good quality vehicles, now we get hit with high gas prices, big health care costs, etc. Consumer choice is a big factor too. Just because I think a car looks good doesn't mean someone else will. If GM was selling cars like hotcakes, it wouldn't matter so much if they paid a few billion dollars over the course of a few years to pay union members to not work. But since they aren't selling like that, something has to give.

 

Well I typed this up in response to another thread that I think has been poop canned, but it's germaine to this thread as well. It is NOT specifically anti-union, more of my opinion as to why things are where they are today. I think we need to compromise all tjhe way around and come to middle ground that is beneficial to us all.

...


And I do, however I find the prices on the American made stuff too much for the quality that you get. Hell I spent $50 for a pair of bolt cutters that were made in America over some $14 China import model. For $50 I could have bouth 3 pair of the cheap china ones and thrown each away when they wore out and probably still be ahead of the game.

Also, the consumer is not entirely to blame for wanting cheap products, the EMPLOYEES often times demand too much compensation for their work IMO. Sure everyone wants to make $30 an hour and have great lifetime health coverage and what all else. In reality thei skills should go for $15-17.50 an hour and carry decent benefits if the company can handle it. Instead of that though, the employees union (organized and legal extortion) demands XXXX ofthe company or the workers will be put on strike.

In the end Corporate gets tired of labor problems, the rising cost of healthcare (that's unrelated to employees directly, but carries over in employee relations), fickle consumers, strick environmental laws that are ONLY applicable in the US, stiff taxes etc. It's no wonder that new trucks and such are Hecho en Mexico (My beloved F-150 excluded). Paco does not demand top dollar for his time, he doesn't demand $500 a month in health insurance coverage, he doesn't demand 30 days paid vacation a year or any of a number of other things. If and when he does, and the laws become too strict, and the environment for business becomes too demanding, they will build another factory elsewhere. Just my $2.00

Edited to add, I was once a union member. Once.

 

Blaming the workers is easy. Lets try to blame Ford, and GM for not providing what the public wants. Stillborn models for '05:

Freestyle
500
G6

I could go on and on. Couple that with their top money-makers getting less than 20 MPG highway, and you've got big losses.

 

Plenty of reasons why the Big 3 have had troubles and yes one of them is the UAW. Last I checked its not the early 1900's so what is the purpose of having unions anymore? Grocery baggers in Cali making $18/hr, and I've even heard of assembly line workers making $90k (whether its true or not I do not know). The UAW will be one of the reasons that GM goes down and it'll probably happen to Ford as well.

Union = one more layer of polical bull***** to add to costs. Its a circle effect. Product costs go up, living costs go up, employees need more money to make a living which in turn drives up cost. Its a never ending butt f%$k. I live in the South and work in construction so luckly unions down here are limited regarding most trades. We do work in the North some and I'll be damn if the local Union dude doesn't call and want to know how many union subs are looking at it and how many non-union ones don't. If a non-union sub gets a job, they protest like whiney little girls.

 

I agree...

Unions have lost their usefullness. I admit, they were needed back in the day; but now that standards are set, and employee expectations are at a certain level, unions are not really needed.

If I could have gotten to Bentonville, AR when Wal-Mart closed the store that tried to unionize, I would have bought a beer for every exec up there!

About the grocery baggers (cashiers) in Cali making $18 an hour- that's true- but, you don't start that high. Have you seen the cost of living out there? Not many people can load up and move to Cali on a whim anymore. The average home in San Francisco/Bay Area costs over $500,000. Not the mansions, the average home.. That's roughly $5,000 a month on mortgage. (@ 7%, with property tax & insurance rolled into your Escrow fund)

To live comfortably out there, and make the mortgage- you must have a minimum salary of $180,000 - $200,000 coming into your home... Either that, or inherit your parents home and just keep living in the same spot.

 

It's not (necessarily) the workers. Obviously there are SOME slackers in every bunch - union or non union. Sure the manufacturer is mostly to blame for things such as poor product design and marketing. But the thing is the union leadership. They aren't serving their members well. Unions breed mediocracy in the workplace. Having been in the phone business for 15 years, I have been through plenty of facilities, manufacturing and not. GE aircraft engines was one of them. You can sure tell who's got a union shop and who doesn't. Unions create a false sense of security and so it's easy to fall into the 'I don't need to bust my a** for my employer' mode if you see everyone else doing it because you know the union would back you up if they tried to fire you. Non-union shops seem to have a different atmosphere. One of "I better do my job and do it well or I'm history" No, I'm not saying union people are lazy, but I know for a fact this stuff happens. I've seen it with my own eyes. It happens a lot in the military too. That's one of the reasons I left. I got tired of people running and hiding from work and me ending up getting stuck with the work they should have done.

GM and other car mfg's that have to pay out literally billions for health care and other benefits probably can't keep that up forever. Some day it's going to be the straw that broke the camel's back. We can blame execs that get paid too much, etc. But that's just the tip of the iceberg when you start looking at the combined benefits, salary and 'sometimes' low productivity of the blue collar employees. When I say low productivity, I mean those folks I mentioned that seek to do as little as possible and they drag others into that mentality along with them. Company failures are the result of several factors...and this issue with union leaders being unrealistic is just one of them. They're going to end up screwing a lot of their members if they keep it up. I get tired of hearing people on TV whine about 'lost jobs' in OH and MI. Well sure!...why would someone want to deal with the union and everything invloved with that when they can (for example) shift jobs overseas and pay less with less hassle and get workers that are hungry for work? Right or wrong, it happens. I wish jobs would stay here in the US...but if union leadership keeps demanding more and more (beyond what is reasonable), then I can't blame someone for wanting to export jobs. My opinion is that if the unions didn't make life so difficult for companies, much of this job exporting wouldn't be happening. Unions did good things in the early days when we had companies driving people like slaves. But today, can we honestly say companies are anywhere near like that? Of course not. But people sure like to make out like 'the company' is evil and out to screw the little guy. Union leadership is simply power hungry these days. They try to hold companies hostage with strike threats, etc. Many times (unfortunately) it works.

P.S. My mom, mother-in-law, father-in-law and wife are all union members.

 

Just as a side note, 20 years ago (ish) Britain had a motor industry. The plants were heavily unionised (it was a closed shop before that was made illegal) and they ruled the industry. Most of their actions were sheer bloody mindedness because they had power.
Funnily enough, as of last month, the last British owned car maker closed their doors (Rover MG). They were making cars at high cost that nobody really wanted.
The union fat cats are ok because their salaries and pension are paid by the union but the working man is now unemployed.
The only car factories working now in Britain are the non-unionised ones (Nissan, Toyota etc) and people there earn good money.

Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned there?

 

I agree that the UAW demands too much money for a lot of these jobs. However, this is not true of all Union Jobs.
Spray004 states that a Union Grocery Bagger in Cali makes $18 an hour. My son WAS a Union Grocery Bagger in Cali for the last 2 years. He left his job making $7.20 per hour, not $18 per hour. After the 2004 Grocery Strike, he even lost his medical coverage. The UFCW has very limited power anymore. 'Wally World' and other non-union stores have castrated them.
I have not been a Union worker for over 20 years. In fact, the Teamsters screwed me royally on my last Union job. I am not pro-union. However, I do see them as a 'necessary evil'.
20 years plus in non-union jobs have shown me how little regard for the workers exists in Corporate America. If you work construction in California, Arizona, or Texas, you will be lucky to keep your job from going to an illegal immigrant. Same goes for factory jobs.
In Los Angeles County, you will pay over $400K for a small house. A base vehicle costs $20K plus. Day-Care for a small child is over $100 per week. Gasoline to drive your car 12K miles per year at 20 MPG with a cost of $2.60 per gallon is about $130 per month. Car inurance is easily over $100 per month in this area.
Your mortgage is $2,500 per month. Your car payment is $400 per month. Day-Care is $500 per month. Gas is $130 per month. Insurance is $100 per month. Phone bill is $50 per month. Electric is $50 per month. Natural gas is $50 per month.
You have just spent $3,780.00 per month. Now add cell phone, cable TV, internet, gym membership, groceries, and clothing. This all has to be paid with 'after-tax' income.
If we keep cutting our own income, who will be left with money to buy the products?
I spent a couple of days in Juarez, Mexico recently. I visited several factories that make auto parts for new cars. Most of the workers in these factories cannot even afford a used car. They make parts for products they cannot afford to buy. The pollution in the streets is unbelievable. They have no unions, no EPA, and no OSHA. Believe me, you do not want to live like this.
Let's not be too quick to jump on the $15 an hour bandwagon. It is important to know when to object. It is also important to know when to stand up and fight...

 

just be gladd mechanics at ford dealerships are non union....

 

I am very happy they are non-union. That's why we all get our vehicles serviced where it will be repaired right the first time, a privately owned shop.

That's comical. Anyone who understands the facts knows that the British auto industry is kaput because of low-quality. A factory worker can only tighten a bolt so tight. Engineering is everything. I submit to you anti-union jerks that the big 3 will still be in the same boat with or without unions. It's all about products that people want.

You people are so representative of the people that need to blame someone even if it is the wrong person.

 

When the Big 3 are having to foot massive healthcare costs, wages & demands for the union workers, then manufacturers can't spend the money on marketing and R&D. When you have limited funds, some departments have to be cut short. GM is going to be royally screwed at the rate their going.

 

Keep drinking the kool-aid. Everyone has "massive health care costs." But other companies still turn a profit.

 

Toyota, Nissan, & Honda have no where near the healthcare costs of GM, Ford or DMX. The Big 3 have a larger workforce and a lot older work force. GM spends more on healthcare for retired employees than it does active employees. GM has estimated to spend $5.6 billion this year in healthcare alone. Nissan, 'Yota, Honda have a far younger work force which require less healthcare.