Torture of Iraqi prisoners.
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From: Hammer Lane
Torture of Iraqi prisoners.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614063.shtml
I'm surprised this hasn't come up here yet. I thought that surely some of the people here, who are against our being there in the first place, would be feeling very validated after this news. I admit it is embarrassing and makes it harder for me to defend my position on the war; but, it doesn't change my position.
The people who make up our military range in personality, upbringing, character, and honor much the same way that the cast of people we see in everyday life do. There are those that we would rather not know, deal with, or have represent us in any way. These people are everywhere and generally reflect negatively on any group they are a part of. I'm glad they have been found out and that they face serious discipline for this atrocious action. There are others there who are doing the same, I'm sure. Hopefully, they will be found out as well.
The media being involved is regrettable. This just makes the situation more difficult over there, and over here, as well.
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During W.W.II Winston Churchill was faced with a similar situation as G. W. Bush. His allies were not in support of his actions. They were not on board to help put down the serious threat he could see clearly. Here is an excerpt from one of his speeches:
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/...cfm?pageid=390
The threat of Middle Eastern based terrorism is different from that which was faced during W.W.II; but, is no less of a looming danger for the future and our way of life. Our freedoms, and even our human dignity, could be threatened if democracy, or some derivative thereof, isn't introduced into the heart of the Arab Nations. If we can help the people of these nations to enjoy lives with the freedom and personal dignity we take for granted here, we help to secure the safety of future generations here and though out the Western world. We also improve the personal prospects of the individual person in Iraq and, hopefully, throughout the region. I hope that the rest of the world gets on board with what we are trying to do there. I also hope that the entirely political opposition here in this country doesn't derail the train for more stable, eventually, world relations.
I'm surprised this hasn't come up here yet. I thought that surely some of the people here, who are against our being there in the first place, would be feeling very validated after this news. I admit it is embarrassing and makes it harder for me to defend my position on the war; but, it doesn't change my position.
The people who make up our military range in personality, upbringing, character, and honor much the same way that the cast of people we see in everyday life do. There are those that we would rather not know, deal with, or have represent us in any way. These people are everywhere and generally reflect negatively on any group they are a part of. I'm glad they have been found out and that they face serious discipline for this atrocious action. There are others there who are doing the same, I'm sure. Hopefully, they will be found out as well.
The media being involved is regrettable. This just makes the situation more difficult over there, and over here, as well.
__________________________________
During W.W.II Winston Churchill was faced with a similar situation as G. W. Bush. His allies were not in support of his actions. They were not on board to help put down the serious threat he could see clearly. Here is an excerpt from one of his speeches:
But what would happen if all these neutral nations I have mentioned-and some others I have not mentioned-were with one spontaneous impulse to do their duty in
accordance with the Covenant of the League, and were to stand together with the British and French Empires against aggression and wrong? At present their plight is lamentable; and it will become much worse. They bow humbly and in fear to German threats of violence, comforting themselves meanwhile with the thought that the Allies will win, that Britain and France will strictly observe all the laws and conventions, and that breaches of these laws are only to be expected from the German side. Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last. All of them hope that the storm will pass before their turn comes to be devoured. But I fear-I fear greatly-the storm will not pass. It will rage and it will roar, ever more loudly, ever more widely. It will spread to the South; it will spread to the North. There is no chance of a speedy end except through united action; and if at any time Britain and France, wearying of the struggle, were to make a shameful peace, nothing would remain for the smaller States of Europe, with their shipping and their possessions, but to be divided between the opposite, though similar, barbarisms of Nazidom and Bolshevism.
accordance with the Covenant of the League, and were to stand together with the British and French Empires against aggression and wrong? At present their plight is lamentable; and it will become much worse. They bow humbly and in fear to German threats of violence, comforting themselves meanwhile with the thought that the Allies will win, that Britain and France will strictly observe all the laws and conventions, and that breaches of these laws are only to be expected from the German side. Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last. All of them hope that the storm will pass before their turn comes to be devoured. But I fear-I fear greatly-the storm will not pass. It will rage and it will roar, ever more loudly, ever more widely. It will spread to the South; it will spread to the North. There is no chance of a speedy end except through united action; and if at any time Britain and France, wearying of the struggle, were to make a shameful peace, nothing would remain for the smaller States of Europe, with their shipping and their possessions, but to be divided between the opposite, though similar, barbarisms of Nazidom and Bolshevism.
The threat of Middle Eastern based terrorism is different from that which was faced during W.W.II; but, is no less of a looming danger for the future and our way of life. Our freedoms, and even our human dignity, could be threatened if democracy, or some derivative thereof, isn't introduced into the heart of the Arab Nations. If we can help the people of these nations to enjoy lives with the freedom and personal dignity we take for granted here, we help to secure the safety of future generations here and though out the Western world. We also improve the personal prospects of the individual person in Iraq and, hopefully, throughout the region. I hope that the rest of the world gets on board with what we are trying to do there. I also hope that the entirely political opposition here in this country doesn't derail the train for more stable, eventually, world relations.
Last edited by Odin's Wrath; May 1, 2004 at 04:35 PM.
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From: Friendswood, Texas
We, as a nation, are better than that. The Geneva Convention is there for a good reason. While I support our being in Iraq, I cannot support violations of the convention. To stoop to that level of behavior makes us no better than the SOBs who did that to our people. I trust that it is a very small minority of Americans that were involved.
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From: Hammer Lane
Originally posted by TXCoUnTrYbOy
i dont have a problem with them torturing the prisoners. they did the same thing when they captured americans, so lets getem back. if they didnt do anything wrong, then they wouldnt get tortured.
i dont have a problem with them torturing the prisoners. they did the same thing when they captured americans, so lets getem back. if they didnt do anything wrong, then they wouldnt get tortured.
I remember some pictures that were shown here that involved the handling of Saddam after his capture. They were disturbing images of children, with a complete lack of character, playing soldier, instead of military professionals carrying out a job. There's a time for celebration and a time to think about behaving in a dignified manner.
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From: Whitehorse, Yukon
Originally posted by TXCoUnTrYbOy
i dont have a problem with them torturing the prisoners. they did the same thing when they captured americans, so lets getem back. if they didnt do anything wrong, then they wouldnt get tortured.
i dont have a problem with them torturing the prisoners. they did the same thing when they captured americans, so lets getem back. if they didnt do anything wrong, then they wouldnt get tortured.
The end doesn't justify the means.
It's ignorant attitudes such as yours which perpetuate wars, and continue to breed hate and contempt.
Hate is not a good thing to make the world go around.
Well said Peter, and Odin, well written post as usual.
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its part of human nature to hate others. its not anything people can control. im not saying its a good thing, but its always gonna be there whether anyone likes it or not. humans, by nature, hate others and have to have at least some conflict. no one can ever stop that, and everyone hates different things.
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From: Hammer Lane
Originally posted by TXCoUnTrYbOy
its part of human nature to hate others. its not anything people can control. im not saying its a good thing, but its always gonna be there whether anyone likes it or not. humans, by nature, hate others and have to have at least some conflict. no one can ever stop that, and everyone hates different things.
its part of human nature to hate others. its not anything people can control. im not saying its a good thing, but its always gonna be there whether anyone likes it or not. humans, by nature, hate others and have to have at least some conflict. no one can ever stop that, and everyone hates different things.
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From: Whitehorse, Yukon
One of the few things that separates us from the animal world is that mankind has the ability / capacity to facilitate reason.
its part of human nature to hate others.
I disagree.
People have a tendency to fear what they do not understand, and this fear often turns to hate.
People often "think" they hate something or someone, but many times this feeling of hate is really mistaken for fear of the unknown.
I was working with a colleague one day and as the supervisor walked by, the colleague said to me "man I really hate that guy!"
So of course I ask him why. He says:
"Because he hates me"
Now my colleague thinks he hates the boss, but in reality, he is misunderstanding a common defense mechanism that us humans utilize.
Had the boss walked up to him and been all friendly, and invited him for a drink after work, my colleague would have quickly accepted, and his stress level would have dropped by a great amount.
Us humans are so stupid at times, it's scary.
I "think" I hate you because I think you hate me.
After this thought is in my head for any length of time, I automatically belief it to be true, and base my future behavior on a misconception.
I apologize for the babble.
What I'm trying to say is that hate is a very strong word, and I do not believe it is natural for "us" to hate one another in the true sense of the word, it's more that we get caught up in misunderstandings, and the mob mentality can make us behave like idiots.
We often overuse the word "hate", and use it when a softer word would suffice.
"I hate strawberry ice cream, I only like vanilla"
"I hate tomato slices on my burgers"
"Burt hates liberals"
Does he lay in bed at night consumed in his deep rooted hate? Does he lie there thinking "How can I rid the world of all liberals forever and make them suffer?"
I would guess he doesn't agree with their philosophy, and doesn't agree with their point of view, but I doubt very much he daydreams at work thinking of ways to kill them.
There are a few people I dislike, but I can honestly say I don't "Hate" anyone, not in the true sense of the word, as "I hate so and so so much I wish they were dead.
The way I see it, life is too short to waste time hating people, and I would much rather use the energy to love the people I care about than spend precious time hating someone.
its part of human nature to hate others.
I disagree.
People have a tendency to fear what they do not understand, and this fear often turns to hate.
People often "think" they hate something or someone, but many times this feeling of hate is really mistaken for fear of the unknown.
I was working with a colleague one day and as the supervisor walked by, the colleague said to me "man I really hate that guy!"
So of course I ask him why. He says:
"Because he hates me"
Now my colleague thinks he hates the boss, but in reality, he is misunderstanding a common defense mechanism that us humans utilize.
Had the boss walked up to him and been all friendly, and invited him for a drink after work, my colleague would have quickly accepted, and his stress level would have dropped by a great amount.
Us humans are so stupid at times, it's scary.
I "think" I hate you because I think you hate me.
After this thought is in my head for any length of time, I automatically belief it to be true, and base my future behavior on a misconception.
I apologize for the babble.
What I'm trying to say is that hate is a very strong word, and I do not believe it is natural for "us" to hate one another in the true sense of the word, it's more that we get caught up in misunderstandings, and the mob mentality can make us behave like idiots.
We often overuse the word "hate", and use it when a softer word would suffice.
"I hate strawberry ice cream, I only like vanilla"
"I hate tomato slices on my burgers"
"Burt hates liberals"
Does he lay in bed at night consumed in his deep rooted hate? Does he lie there thinking "How can I rid the world of all liberals forever and make them suffer?"
I would guess he doesn't agree with their philosophy, and doesn't agree with their point of view, but I doubt very much he daydreams at work thinking of ways to kill them.
There are a few people I dislike, but I can honestly say I don't "Hate" anyone, not in the true sense of the word, as "I hate so and so so much I wish they were dead.
The way I see it, life is too short to waste time hating people, and I would much rather use the energy to love the people I care about than spend precious time hating someone.
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From: FL
IF this isn't something that has been totally blown out of porportion (it doesn't appear to be), I say those soldiers are in for a good puplic court martial. WTF! Our country's future is on the line and these dumbasses are playing "Hey look at me with the naked terrorist!" F wads the lot of them.
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From: NH
Burt doesn’t hate anyone, liberals included. Now as far as the philosophy liberals believe in well that I just think it is absolutely misguided, illogical and complete BS. I will say much of their philosophy is “feel good” and sounds good but there is a HUGE difference between “feelings” and “actions”. Liberals like to “feel” good about things that “sound” good but make no logic sense whatsoever and rarely if ever accomplish anything…
Now I never said I didn’t hate “things” like cat’s (useless flucking animal), raw tomatoes, like on a hamburger (who was the first idiot that thought about putting some mushy red thing on a hamburger?). I hate when it rains after spending hours on washing and polishing a vehicle, you get the idea, those are a type of hate that one never waste time or sleep on, well maybe the rain one thinking “is it going to be raining AGAIN tomorrow?”
Hate and/or prejudice towards other human beings is a behavior that is learned it is NOT something anyone is born with and it is NOT normal human instinct. For example when I was born I wasn’t prejudice towards those human beings that are to lazy to get off their butt, get a job, and pay their own way. That was a leaned behavior, after seeing hundreds of thousands of tax dollars wasted on these people I developed a prejudice towards them. Now that does not mean in any way I would ever cause “physical” harm towards them, however it would not bother me one bit to see them go hungry for a week or so and see if that don’t help “assist” them for their “self survival” instincts to kick in, like to get a job. That I would not consider torture but rather “touch love”…
Ok, now that is out of the way…
There is absolutely NO reason for what these few soldiers did in Iraq as far as treatment towards prisoners. NOTHING justifies what they did PERIOD. These few soldiers in their weakness and misguided brain function have disgraced America and made our soldier’s job in Iraq just that much harder. I hope these few morons get everything they deserve which I hope includes no less then 20 years in prison…
As far as what was mentioned about torture and getting information out of a suspected leaders or someone that may have information I have no problem with that. However it is NEVER a military person that conducts those kinds of interrogations. I could be wrong, but pretty sure I am not. We usually bring in outside help (other countries that can actually beat people, electrocute them etc) and we (Americans) usually hang out in another room until some information comes forth. We Americans usually do low rate torturing, like not allowing them to sleep much, maybe an hour or so a day, not feeding them except the very bare minimum and things like that in which it really don’t hurt them but irritates the chit out of them and really pisses them off, oh well so sad…
Oh, and I DO indeed HATE all terrorist which is another learned behavior on my part. They have showed me that they are cowards and have no idea what the hell is really going on. They have showed me they can be brainwashed to believe anything one wants them to believe. They have showed me they have complete animal instincts and do NOT have any moral or logical thoughts. They are wild animals and when you have a wild animal running loose in the city it is always best to just KILL IT!!!!!!!!
Of course none of the animal rights wackos would every agree with just killing a wild animal just like many liberal wackos don’t think we should be in Iraq and that we should not be wagging a war against terrorist but rather we should do what we do with wild animals in the city, which is to catch them, try to understand why they are in our city, understand how they feel and then basically concluded in their misguided and illogical thought process that we Americans, humans are for some reason the cause…
See why I HATE the philosophy liberals practice, just never any common sense or any human like logic involved…
How’s that?
Now I never said I didn’t hate “things” like cat’s (useless flucking animal), raw tomatoes, like on a hamburger (who was the first idiot that thought about putting some mushy red thing on a hamburger?). I hate when it rains after spending hours on washing and polishing a vehicle, you get the idea, those are a type of hate that one never waste time or sleep on, well maybe the rain one thinking “is it going to be raining AGAIN tomorrow?”
Hate and/or prejudice towards other human beings is a behavior that is learned it is NOT something anyone is born with and it is NOT normal human instinct. For example when I was born I wasn’t prejudice towards those human beings that are to lazy to get off their butt, get a job, and pay their own way. That was a leaned behavior, after seeing hundreds of thousands of tax dollars wasted on these people I developed a prejudice towards them. Now that does not mean in any way I would ever cause “physical” harm towards them, however it would not bother me one bit to see them go hungry for a week or so and see if that don’t help “assist” them for their “self survival” instincts to kick in, like to get a job. That I would not consider torture but rather “touch love”…
Ok, now that is out of the way…
There is absolutely NO reason for what these few soldiers did in Iraq as far as treatment towards prisoners. NOTHING justifies what they did PERIOD. These few soldiers in their weakness and misguided brain function have disgraced America and made our soldier’s job in Iraq just that much harder. I hope these few morons get everything they deserve which I hope includes no less then 20 years in prison…
As far as what was mentioned about torture and getting information out of a suspected leaders or someone that may have information I have no problem with that. However it is NEVER a military person that conducts those kinds of interrogations. I could be wrong, but pretty sure I am not. We usually bring in outside help (other countries that can actually beat people, electrocute them etc) and we (Americans) usually hang out in another room until some information comes forth. We Americans usually do low rate torturing, like not allowing them to sleep much, maybe an hour or so a day, not feeding them except the very bare minimum and things like that in which it really don’t hurt them but irritates the chit out of them and really pisses them off, oh well so sad…
Oh, and I DO indeed HATE all terrorist which is another learned behavior on my part. They have showed me that they are cowards and have no idea what the hell is really going on. They have showed me they can be brainwashed to believe anything one wants them to believe. They have showed me they have complete animal instincts and do NOT have any moral or logical thoughts. They are wild animals and when you have a wild animal running loose in the city it is always best to just KILL IT!!!!!!!!
Of course none of the animal rights wackos would every agree with just killing a wild animal just like many liberal wackos don’t think we should be in Iraq and that we should not be wagging a war against terrorist but rather we should do what we do with wild animals in the city, which is to catch them, try to understand why they are in our city, understand how they feel and then basically concluded in their misguided and illogical thought process that we Americans, humans are for some reason the cause…
See why I HATE the philosophy liberals practice, just never any common sense or any human like logic involved…
How’s that?
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odin: i know to control my emotions. i never let them get the best of me. i never get in trouble, i never get in fights because i get pissed at someone, i dont yell at people because they make me mad. i know how i feel towards some people though.
people dont think that there are hundreds of thousands of soldiers in iraq right now. dont you think just cause they are putting their life on the line for us now (which we appreciate and honor them for), there isnt a couple in there that are gonna do stupid stuff. stuff like that happens all the time. the few times the media gets a hold of it they blow it up majorly and im sure exagerate it a lot. im sure it happened in afghanistan too (dont remember seeing it on news), and every other war america has been in, as well as every other country. its not something preventable. i strongly believe everyone has some evil in them. most learn to control it but then some learn to unleash it. saddam hussein learned to unleash his evil and so did Bin Laden.
people dont think that there are hundreds of thousands of soldiers in iraq right now. dont you think just cause they are putting their life on the line for us now (which we appreciate and honor them for), there isnt a couple in there that are gonna do stupid stuff. stuff like that happens all the time. the few times the media gets a hold of it they blow it up majorly and im sure exagerate it a lot. im sure it happened in afghanistan too (dont remember seeing it on news), and every other war america has been in, as well as every other country. its not something preventable. i strongly believe everyone has some evil in them. most learn to control it but then some learn to unleash it. saddam hussein learned to unleash his evil and so did Bin Laden.
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From: The Netherlands
Originally posted by 01 XLT Sport
Now I never said I didn’t hate “things” like raw tomatoes, like on a hamburger (who was the first idiot that thought about putting some mushy red thing on a hamburger?).
Now I never said I didn’t hate “things” like raw tomatoes, like on a hamburger (who was the first idiot that thought about putting some mushy red thing on a hamburger?).
You shouldn't have said that.
To stay on topic.
Sad thing, these tortures.
No matter what punishment they get, harm has all ready been done to the good cause.
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From: TX
Those individuals responsible for this need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
What I'm really tired of is the irresponsible reporting by certain media groups. By airing this, CBS has made significant waves in the international community. This could have been handled better by them. Handling it by other means would not have served thier political agenda.
CBS needs to be slammed for this irresposible reporting as well.
What I'm really tired of is the irresponsible reporting by certain media groups. By airing this, CBS has made significant waves in the international community. This could have been handled better by them. Handling it by other means would not have served thier political agenda.
CBS needs to be slammed for this irresposible reporting as well.