How many of you saw the CBS 60 Minutes programme about Iraqi prisoners being mistreated in the Abu-Gharib jail?
Subjecting prisoners to maltreatment and sexual abuse like this will only play into the hands of every terrorist and sympathiser out there.
Didn't we invade them (among other reasons) just to stop this kind of thing?
This, along with (IMO) what looks like some very heavy handed tactics in Fallujah cannot have a positive outcome and only undo any good previous work.
As a supporter of the war, this is now turning into a very sad state of affairs.
Time to just pull out anyone?

 

EnglishAdam,

I did see that program the other night. I agree that the images they showed were troubling and likely do add further "fuel" to anti-American sentiment. At least the military spokesperson seemed forthright about the matter and admitted that although the soldiers who participated in the mistreatment aren't representative of all the soldiers serving, it does reflect poorly on the military. I think there was a serious leadership failure to allow the mistreatment to happen. I hope all such crimes are fully investigated and prosecuted. That is the only way for our forces to maintain credibility. I have respect for all of our troops, and it is unfortunate that their service and bravery might be tainted by what I hope are isolated incidents.

I do not believe it is "time to just pull out". As bad as things are, a mass pull out would leave a dangerous vacuum that would only embolden the insurgents and worldwide terrorists even further. I pray that the situation in Iraq improves quickly...but continue to be wary that it will not.

John

 

For those that missed the story when it aired, here is a link to it on the CBS News website:
Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed

John

 

?? British and American soldiers defending themselves is heavy-handed? Since when? I'm sorry, but I think you need to get your news from other sources, then make your decision. We have been puting up with the attacks for too long. It is time to go on the offensive. I'm disappointed to see the troops pulling out and letting the incompetent Iraqi security force ( now there's an oxymoron for ya) handle things.

 

EnglishAdam:

I agree with you and too am VERY disappointed in the treatment by a “few” of our soldiers of POW’s/terrorist. Anyone who miss treats a prisoner should be punished to the fullest extent possible.

However, I do not agree with this:

I don’t think the tactics have been heavy enough. We need to stop screwing around and just kick some major butt in Fallujah. We will ONLY win the hearts and minds when we have CRUSHED the enemy.

This is the same problem with Israel and Palestine. It is absolutely foolish for anyone to think there will ever be piece. Piece ONLY comes when you have completely CRUSHED your enemy, in other words someone has to win and someone has to lose and the one that losses will have to conform to what the winner wishes.

That is simply the natural order of life itself and that is what is going to have to happen in Fallujah. If we continue to seek a political solution then there should be a strict time line. Give the Iraq government say 3 days and after that time if ALL fighting has not completely stopped and if not ALL those fighting do not give up then themselves up we go in and wipe out every single one of them (terrorist). Plain and simple, you CRUSH them and you will win the heart and minds of the rest.

We never worried about the hearts and minds in **** Germany when we kicked their butt and we never worried about the hearts and minds of Japanese. We simply CRUSHED them and after they realized there was no way in hell to beat us (America, Britain and other allies) we won their hearts and minds…

We need to stop worrying about this entire politically correct BS that the liberals love to spew. Not saying you’re a liberal because I know your not and that we agree on many things. However our liberal dominated media along with yours in Britain has really done a job on brainwashing many people to be AFRAID if we kick to much butt at one time. They have lead many people to believe that if we kick the living chit out of those in Iraq or any other Middle Eastern country that we will forever have to worry about attacks.

I call BS to that. When the enemy, the terrorist learn we will NOT stop kicking the living chit out of them they will pull back because they are the ultimate cowards and they TRULY do FEAR power when it is used to it fullest.

The terrorist are playing off our liberal media and watching us take baby steps on how we kick their butt in Iraq. The terrorist are not stupid and they are playing off that. Every time they hear some liberal here or their whine about how many are being attacked and killed it gives them the energy and the will to go out and attack more of our brave soldiers.

Anybody who does not believe that does not understand how the human mind works. When and if (fat chance) were the terrorist to every hear 80% or 90% of our citizens and your citizens talking about how we will stay and will we completely wipe out every last one of them until they stop fighting I can guarantee you the fighting would subside and it would kill their will…

 

Exactly! The only problem is that this is not how we fight wars any more.
In WW2 etc we sent in the heavy bombers and destroyed them. There is still a lot of talk about the bombing of Dresden by the British which was basically a revenge attack for the raid on Coventry. 100's of thousands were killed and although it was a legit military target (major railroad terminus), the majority killed were civillians. Apparently, this was the begining of the end for the ****'s and their support when it was realised what power could be brought against them.
Of course, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki demonstrated to the Japanese the fultility of fighting on thus saving 1000's of American soldiers in the Pacific.

With the advent of televised wars, begining with Vietnam, Governments appear to be fighting a PR campain alongside the actual war.
You guys could have probably won in Vietnam in very short order if the military had been given free reign to fight properly.

Same thing in Iraq. We have gone in with a very light force, done a few surgical strikes removing the leadership and then think it's all over. The majority of the rebels fighting were almost certainly released by us (instead of being kept POW) at the end of so called hostilities. We should have kept all those POW's till order was restored at least.

Let me explain my earlier comment. What I meant to say in my first post was what "appears" to be heavy handed tactics. My mistake. The point I was trying to make is that this is just good propaganda for the anti-war brigade.
I don't think we have been tough enough on them either.

The people in Fallujah who killed those civilian workers should be punished.
We should have enough troops there fulltime to round up every Iraqi male between 16 and 75 and imprison them till order is restored. Every place in Iraq should be searced for weapons.
Any foreign national fighting there should be declared a terrorist and executed immediately.

We will never win this war fighting a half hearted campaign and have the military trying to do their job with one hand tied.
The fart arsing about in Fallujah is just good propaganda for the liberals and Muslim world.
Lets do the job properly. Either send enough troops to do the job, bomb the place flat or get out.
I'm tired of seeing our soldiers getting picked off one by one.

 

I just read the article from the link that johnanddar posted, and it's painfully obvious that the actions of a few American soldiers do not represent the majority of the American forces who are under tremendous pressure.

"In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up.'

I don't know if anyone remembers, but when Canada was involved with the Somalia conflict, a few of our military got in trouble for doing the same type of thing.

I agree with Burt, go in heavy and hard, and don't fawk around, however, with that being said, anyone who thinks it's ok for any coalition force to treat prisoners like this really needs to pull their head outa their ***.

There's going to be a few bad apples in every organization who have difficulty managing the responsibility they are given, but what's important is that the problem is identified, and hopefully they will be dealt with accordingly, and this type of thing doesn't happen again.

Sadly, the media loves this type of thing and will milk it dry.

 

EnglishAdam & Habibi:

Sounds like we are all in agreement. Punish those few soldiers who do NOT understand how prisoners are treated by American professional soldiers and either CRUSH the living CHIT out of the terrorist running around or just PACK IT UP and come home.

As EnglishAdam stated and I agree, I am tired of watching a few here and there of our fine military personal getting picked off by a bunch of FLUCKING cowards.

FLUCK the liberals here and everywhere else in the world it’s time to CRUSH them as well and they will finally conform to what is right or at least keep their mouth shut.

What I mean about CRUSHING liberals is just that we need many, many more people standing up and telling the rest of the people what liberals really are and that is FAKE, COWARDS, without ANY logic what so ever. They have no ideas and everything they have every dreamed about safely in their bunkers has ALWAYS failed big time and cost a ton of money.

Liberals and socialist in general are responsible in large part for many, not all, but many of those who have been killed in the Iraq war, they continue to bow down to terrorist and put their head in the sand, they continue to believe in some fantasy of everybody can get along, and they continue to believe that it is “thoughts” that count rather then actions.

NO MORE, call them what they are which is terrorist loving cowards that have no actions to speak of and their “thoughts” have gotten MANY Americans and other free people killed…

Vietnam was LOST due to liberals and their stupid feelings and misguided thoughts. Let’s not lose Iraq for the very same reason…

 

"piece" is what TUFF FORD is after this weekend.


"peace" is when people quit killing each other.

I had higher expectations of you, Burt.

 

LMAO, I stand corrected...