What do they have to lose?
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From: NH
Originally posted by FL'03
The Crusades was an attempt to enslave people and occupy territory (building an empire) to collect taxes using the name of God to justify it and a sword to enforce it.
Personally, I don't believe in God. If someone else does and that makes them a better person, so be-it. Congratulations and I'll be the first to stand up for their RIGHT to believe. BUT, when people try and justify their actions upon others in the "Name" of God - I do have a problem with that. There's hypocrisy in every religion to prove that its ok to impose one's religion on another.
The Crusades was an attempt to enslave people and occupy territory (building an empire) to collect taxes using the name of God to justify it and a sword to enforce it.
Personally, I don't believe in God. If someone else does and that makes them a better person, so be-it. Congratulations and I'll be the first to stand up for their RIGHT to believe. BUT, when people try and justify their actions upon others in the "Name" of God - I do have a problem with that. There's hypocrisy in every religion to prove that its ok to impose one's religion on another.
I don’t go to church so I am not perhaps your average religious person. I believe and in my opinion that is all that is needed.
Now I see nothing wrong with one, like me trying to convince you that perhaps my beliefs may make your life better, basically nothing different then a debate. However, I would never tell someone they are less then me for not believing or feeling the way I do, SO LONG as there is that mutual respect for one another which you have for those like me and to live in peace.
As I stated about the Muslim religion I can’t comment since I really do not know much and neither can I comment about the crusades since I don’t really know anything about that.
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From: Hammer Lane
Here's a short writing that gives an idea of the Politics involved in the Crusades. Religious fervor was a tool wielded by those in power, to improve trade routes with the East. I'm not saying that the Crusades were acceptable to me, just that things are not so simple. The following only scratches the surface really, as the writer has concentrated on providing a general overview.
The 11th century brought good things to the Eastern
Mediterranean. There were generally no immense problems to deal with,
as everything was in a very tranquil state. The people who lived
there went with the flow, but what they did not know is that they
would soon be part of a turning point in religious history.
A large group of Christians formed a small military which was
called the Crusaders. They were out to recapture the Holy land from
the Muslims, and dedicated their lives to this. They were identified
by red cloth that was sewn on their garments in the form of a cross.
This indicated that they were the soldiers of Christ. Their name,
“The Crusaders” was derived from the Latin word crux meaning “cross,”
this then in turn was a reference to the biblical ruling that good
Christians always carry a cross.
The Crusaders existence was based on strong religious beliefs
more then any of the other minor reasons they were established. The
Crusaders also resurrected an older tradition of the pilgrimage to the
Holy Land, which was often imposed as a reconciliation of your-self.
They assumed two roles: pilgrims and soliders. Armed pilgrims would
normally not be accepted, but in this case they were, because they
were fighting for the Christian Holy Land. This made the “war”
justifiable in their eyes.
In the 7th century the Muslims took control of Jerusalem, and
in the 11th century they began to hassle and interfere with Christian
pilgrims and teaching in the Jerusalem area. To the Christians
Jerusalem was a heavenly city, the center of their existence and they
did not take lightly to being pushed out. The Popes encouragement,
religious indulgences, and promise of eternal merit provoked thousands
of Christians to enroll in this “holy” military to fight for the
cause.
The Crusades were also a response to the cries of help from the
Byzantine Empire, who was very worried about a gaining threat in the
form of the Seljuk Turks. In 1071 Jerusalem was taken and the
Byzantine army went down at Miniskirt to the Turks. This caused a bad
economic state for the west and the Crusades were a last stab at
extending trade routes and bring the Byzantine Empire to a status that
matched a rich and flourishing Italy.
Late in the year of 1095 Pope Urban announced on Tuesday,
November 27 that he would hold a public session to make an
announcement. This was the beginning of what was to be the First
Crusade. He thought that western Christendom should march to the
rescue of the East. Rich and poor alike should go and they should stop
murdering each other and instead fight a great war for what they
really believe in. They believed it was God’s will and that God would
lead them to victory. During his speech many interruptions took
place. People yelled and rallied behind Pope Urban and other crowd
members. Just after the Pope ended his speech the bishop of Le Puy
dropped to his knees and asked permission to join what was first
called the "Holy Expedition." The crowd quickly embraced him and many
followed with his example.
Each man involved with the expedition was to wear a cross in
symbolization of his dedication. Anyone who took this cross vowed to
go to Jerusalem and fight. By August 15th everyone who was leaving
was to be ready. The armies meet in Constantinople. When all arrived
Pope Urban made clear that the crusade was under the control of the
church, and appointed Bishop Le Puy as the their leader. This was the
beginning of a great movement.
The Byzantine emperor Alexious I provided the crusaders with
food and shelter; he also attempted to get oaths of loyalty from them
but the crusaders that would not agree. This caused distrust in the
emperor. Which lead to the fall of Constantinople.
Life during the first crusade was horrible. Men pushed
themselves to their limits, they pushed on because their life would be
prosperous and joyful and they would truly befriend god when it was
all over. During the many years this campaign went on it finally
ended and this letter was seen as an icon to the Crusades victory.
This letter was translated into English:
“For on the very day on which they had promised that they would
surrender, Solomon and all the Turks, collected from neighboring and
distant regions, suddenly fell upon us and attempted to capture our
camp. However the count of St. Gilles, with the remaining Franks, made
and attack upon them and killed an innumerable multitude. All the
others fled in confusion. Our men, moreover, returning in victory and
bearing many heads fixed upon pikes and spears, furnished a joyful
spectacle for the people of God"
In religious terms, the Crusades, hardened Muslim attitudes
toward Christians. At the same time, doubts were raised among
Christians about God's will, the church's authority, and the role of
the papacy. Religious commitment halted to disinterest, and
skepticism. On the other hand, the Crusades did stimulate religious
enthusiasm on a broad scale. The Crusades continued many years after
Pope Urban originally lead them to Constantinople. The Mediterranean
had an addiction to warfare. The Crusades helped some religions, but
they had to destroy and oppress others so many question if what they
were doing was or did further an advancement in religion.
Written by J. Humes
Tucson, AZ
Sorry for the inconvenience and confusion that this may have caused
anyone.
Mediterranean. There were generally no immense problems to deal with,
as everything was in a very tranquil state. The people who lived
there went with the flow, but what they did not know is that they
would soon be part of a turning point in religious history.
A large group of Christians formed a small military which was
called the Crusaders. They were out to recapture the Holy land from
the Muslims, and dedicated their lives to this. They were identified
by red cloth that was sewn on their garments in the form of a cross.
This indicated that they were the soldiers of Christ. Their name,
“The Crusaders” was derived from the Latin word crux meaning “cross,”
this then in turn was a reference to the biblical ruling that good
Christians always carry a cross.
The Crusaders existence was based on strong religious beliefs
more then any of the other minor reasons they were established. The
Crusaders also resurrected an older tradition of the pilgrimage to the
Holy Land, which was often imposed as a reconciliation of your-self.
They assumed two roles: pilgrims and soliders. Armed pilgrims would
normally not be accepted, but in this case they were, because they
were fighting for the Christian Holy Land. This made the “war”
justifiable in their eyes.
In the 7th century the Muslims took control of Jerusalem, and
in the 11th century they began to hassle and interfere with Christian
pilgrims and teaching in the Jerusalem area. To the Christians
Jerusalem was a heavenly city, the center of their existence and they
did not take lightly to being pushed out. The Popes encouragement,
religious indulgences, and promise of eternal merit provoked thousands
of Christians to enroll in this “holy” military to fight for the
cause.
The Crusades were also a response to the cries of help from the
Byzantine Empire, who was very worried about a gaining threat in the
form of the Seljuk Turks. In 1071 Jerusalem was taken and the
Byzantine army went down at Miniskirt to the Turks. This caused a bad
economic state for the west and the Crusades were a last stab at
extending trade routes and bring the Byzantine Empire to a status that
matched a rich and flourishing Italy.
Late in the year of 1095 Pope Urban announced on Tuesday,
November 27 that he would hold a public session to make an
announcement. This was the beginning of what was to be the First
Crusade. He thought that western Christendom should march to the
rescue of the East. Rich and poor alike should go and they should stop
murdering each other and instead fight a great war for what they
really believe in. They believed it was God’s will and that God would
lead them to victory. During his speech many interruptions took
place. People yelled and rallied behind Pope Urban and other crowd
members. Just after the Pope ended his speech the bishop of Le Puy
dropped to his knees and asked permission to join what was first
called the "Holy Expedition." The crowd quickly embraced him and many
followed with his example.
Each man involved with the expedition was to wear a cross in
symbolization of his dedication. Anyone who took this cross vowed to
go to Jerusalem and fight. By August 15th everyone who was leaving
was to be ready. The armies meet in Constantinople. When all arrived
Pope Urban made clear that the crusade was under the control of the
church, and appointed Bishop Le Puy as the their leader. This was the
beginning of a great movement.
The Byzantine emperor Alexious I provided the crusaders with
food and shelter; he also attempted to get oaths of loyalty from them
but the crusaders that would not agree. This caused distrust in the
emperor. Which lead to the fall of Constantinople.
Life during the first crusade was horrible. Men pushed
themselves to their limits, they pushed on because their life would be
prosperous and joyful and they would truly befriend god when it was
all over. During the many years this campaign went on it finally
ended and this letter was seen as an icon to the Crusades victory.
This letter was translated into English:
“For on the very day on which they had promised that they would
surrender, Solomon and all the Turks, collected from neighboring and
distant regions, suddenly fell upon us and attempted to capture our
camp. However the count of St. Gilles, with the remaining Franks, made
and attack upon them and killed an innumerable multitude. All the
others fled in confusion. Our men, moreover, returning in victory and
bearing many heads fixed upon pikes and spears, furnished a joyful
spectacle for the people of God"
In religious terms, the Crusades, hardened Muslim attitudes
toward Christians. At the same time, doubts were raised among
Christians about God's will, the church's authority, and the role of
the papacy. Religious commitment halted to disinterest, and
skepticism. On the other hand, the Crusades did stimulate religious
enthusiasm on a broad scale. The Crusades continued many years after
Pope Urban originally lead them to Constantinople. The Mediterranean
had an addiction to warfare. The Crusades helped some religions, but
they had to destroy and oppress others so many question if what they
were doing was or did further an advancement in religion.
Written by J. Humes
Tucson, AZ
Sorry for the inconvenience and confusion that this may have caused
anyone.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 179
Likes: 2
From: New York, NY
Re: What do they have to lose?
Originally posted by Odin's Wrath
Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim terrorists are so quick to commit suicide.
No Jesus, No Wal-Mart. No Home Depot.
Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim terrorists are so quick to commit suicide.
No Jesus, No Wal-Mart. No Home Depot.
The Jesus argument is silly. 75% of the world gets by just fine without believing in Jesus.
Your wives can't shave.
One thing that should be remembered here is that the Muslim world (during the Crusades) was far ahead of the Europeans in a lot of areas. They did more scientific research and had far better hygiene than most Europeans.
It is only relatively recently that Muslims stopped scientific and technological research. At some point, science and technology ran contrary to religion and it was abandoned. I am forced to look at Christianity and its views on evolution in the same light.
-Don
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Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 1,719
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From: Blue Ridge Mountains, GA
Although Home Depot is sometimes convenient, I always prefer to go to my local hardware store.
One thing that should be remembered here is that the Muslim world (during the Crusades) was far ahead of the Europeans in a lot of areas. They did more scientific research and had far better hygiene than most Europeans
The Jesus argument is silly. 75% of the world gets by just fine without believing in Jesus
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,867
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From: NH
Thanks for that post Odin's Wrath with a short explanation on the crusades. I know it is just brief and not the complete story but it is much more then I ever knew which was basically nothing on the subject.
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From: NJ
Originally posted by 01 XLT Sport
Thanks for that post Odin's Wrath with a short explanation on the crusades. I know it is just brief and not the complete story but it is much more then I ever knew which was basically nothing on the subject.
Thanks for that post Odin's Wrath with a short explanation on the crusades. I know it is just brief and not the complete story but it is much more then I ever knew which was basically nothing on the subject.
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From: Hammer Lane
Congratulations. We've managed to take what was meant to be humorous jibe at fanatical terrorists, of which most Muslims are not, and beat it to death with a bunch of PC bull*****.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 179
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From: New York, NY
Home Depot/Lowes type stores got business the old fashioned way
That is exactly what has happened here in New York. Lowes has been able to beat back several of the Home Depots by offering better prices and much better people. So do my local stores.
Here's an example: Lawn Boy 2-cycle oil at the local Ace (ripoff) is 1.87 per can. The same item at Home Depot is 1.49.
The key word in that statement is "WAS".
How do you think history will judge the US a millenium from now?
There are no atheists in foxholes. Noone lives forever.
As for living forever? I'm an atheist and have no fear of death. Foolish? Perhaps. Happy with who I am as a person? Absolutely.
-Don
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Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,362
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From: Kennesaw, Ga. USA
1. How this got to go from Muslims to a really good synopsis of the Crusades to Wal Mart/Home Depot is beyond me.
2. To get a better fix on Odin's Wrath, I did a Google Search and discovered that he is a character from Camelot the movie and the role playing game. Now.....I have a better understanding of where he is coming from.
3. Burt/01XLTSport:
Dang it man, I been trying all day to 'splain the workings of the world outside of the US of A and here Odin dude is laying it out for you and you say you never heard of it.
The world outside of the US of A is a very dangerous and unpredictable place.
Bill
2. To get a better fix on Odin's Wrath, I did a Google Search and discovered that he is a character from Camelot the movie and the role playing game. Now.....I have a better understanding of where he is coming from.
3. Burt/01XLTSport:
Dang it man, I been trying all day to 'splain the workings of the world outside of the US of A and here Odin dude is laying it out for you and you say you never heard of it.
The world outside of the US of A is a very dangerous and unpredictable place.
Bill
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 179
Likes: 2
From: New York, NY
Originally posted by Odin's Wrath
Congratulations. We've managed to take what was meant to be humorous jibe at fanatical terrorists
Congratulations. We've managed to take what was meant to be humorous jibe at fanatical terrorists
Towels for hats
No pork BBQ, No hot dogs, No burgers, No lobster, No shellfish, or even frozen fish sticks, No gumbo, No jambalaya.
No Christmas
These comments apply to all Muslims and can not seriously be called a "humorous jibe at fanatical terrorists."
That's just my opinion though.
-Don
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 1,719
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From: Blue Ridge Mountains, GA
Happy with who I am as a person? Absolutely.
with, then when the competition is gone, jack everything back up
The fact is that your beliefs are in the minority in this world.
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Joined: Mar 2002
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From: NH
Originally posted by Bill Murray
3. Burt/01XLTSport:
Dang it man, I been trying all day to 'splain the workings of the world outside of the US of A and here Odin dude is laying it out for you and you say you never heard of it.
The world outside of the US of A is a very dangerous and unpredictable place.
Bill
3. Burt/01XLTSport:
Dang it man, I been trying all day to 'splain the workings of the world outside of the US of A and here Odin dude is laying it out for you and you say you never heard of it.
The world outside of the US of A is a very dangerous and unpredictable place.
Bill
However, I do know that the US of A plays a major role in the workings of the world and that without the good ol’ US of A the world would be extremely more dangerous then it is today…
