How many times do we have to get this guy.
Shoulda been named Ninelives Ali....

http://www.rr.com/v5/1/news/frame/0,...479571,00.html

 

Didn't want you to think nobody pays attention to your posts.

That was amazing but not out of pattern for our Intel seems to me.

As this thing grinds on I find myself getting more and more frustrated at our seeming inability to get a good grasp on the situation over there. I have always been mildly critical (for the most part) but generally supportive of our actions in Iraq. WMD is not a particular hot button for me nor is whether or not Iraq was supporting the particular terrorists that hit the US. There seemed to me to be sufficient other reasons for taking out the Saddam government and armed forces.

I am not even too upset with the spin, if that is what it was, that GW put on to justify the assault. At my age (63) I go back to FDR as far as Presidents go and at a reasoning age back to Ike. Generally, all of them played pretty loose with the facts to back whatever course of action they took.

What frustrates me is in this day and age and with Vietnam, Somalia and Gulf War I behind us why we seem to not have thought out what we had to do to finish the job at hand. I guess our intelligence apparatus is not the world's best but surely we should have known of the state of the infrastructure in Iraq (oil producing machinery/electrical generating capacity/water producing capacity/telephone system etc.). What I see on the news almost daily seems to indicate either we did not know this or that we knew it and ignored it or just hoped it would all work out somehow.

These thoughts may be a reach, but in my time on this planet, this is not the American way of doing things, with a few exceptions. Together with the Germans and Japanese, we rebuilt their economies and governmental systems with I think generally good results. While we did not "beat" North Korea, we did work together with the South Koreans and together lifted them out of a feudal rice paddy economy to become a world economic leader.

Although Vietnam does not really fit my thinking, even there we are now actively engaged with their economy and to an extent their government to the benefit of both parties.

To return to my frustrations, amongst other things we have more oil field experts than any country on the planet. Ditto for power plant experts, phone system experts and so on and so on. Regarding oil production, it is a no brainer that without oil sales, nothing gets paid for out of the Iraqi coffers. We have to pay and we don't really want to. I talked to a friend in Houston the other day who has worked all over the world in oil fields. He has his resume out to several of the contractors I guess we have over there as do a lot of his friends. The phone never rings, and he says these guys could fix what is wrong. As to security of the oil pipelines and plants, what I read seems to tell me that our military is not even involved in guarding what is arguably the only source of income for the Iraqis to help pay for the restructuring. How/why is that I ask???

I could go on forever, but bottom line to me is that we needed to make a tremendous initial investment in money, people, vehicles and equipment and so on to get the country back on it's feet ASAP. That, in theory at least, would have taken a lot of heat off of the "occupation forces" as they are now seen. And to finish, we conquered the country, like it or not. We are responsible for it's people, like it or not.

End of rant.
Bill

 

That's about 4 posts in itself there Bill.

 

Bill, I certainly agree with your "spin" theory. Each administration for as far as I can remember (and further in my reading) has backed their actions with positive spin. I remember "Ike", I just didn't follow him much. Kennedy was the first President I started second guessing.

As you say, it's hard to imagine us going into Iraq without a clear picture of the pitfalls. Certainly someone in Washington's inner circles has heard of Korea, Somalia, and Vietnam, to name a few. I wonder if our plan is working exactly as we wish. Let the infrastructure fail completely. Let water, gas, sewer, supply systems all go down in such disrepair that the country is worn down to no resistance at all. Then escalate our efforts (with UN help), scoop up the remaining "playing cards", lock them up and begin a decade long task of rebuilding the country in an image more suited to our needs. I say all this only because I can't believe we can be doing what we are without a clear path in mind. Possibly I'm naive in my thinking, and in my support of us doing the "right" thing.
Did Saddam have considerable WMD? no. Did we directly link only Saddam to Terrorist groups? No. Did Saddam's regime need to be removed? Yes! It's almost as if we build the case backwards. Bush decided Saddam need to go, then he decided on the reasons.

I certainly does look like Bush went into this with a "let's fight first, and figure it out later" attitude.

LGJ, I believe you hit the nail on the head, Bill's post covered a lot of ground.



edit: BTW Bill, I certainly don't mind being ignored if the topic is of no interest to anyone. I do it myself all the time, just ask my wife and kids.

john

 

I'll respond to Joe first:

I have not posted much due to business pressures and just happened on this one from John. I then hijacked the thread as it was the only one dealing with the current sit in Iraq. Also, John is my favorite, amongst many others, that I really enjoy debating with on current affairs. There a lot of guys and girls on this board that take a serious and pretty open look at what is going on and make some really interesting observations.

To be sure, we do not always agree and sometimes seriously disagree but they are generally very civil and very well thought
out exchanges of views. And yes, I covered more ground than usual as having hijacked the thread I figured I might just as well run with the ball as I was in a venting mood.

John, I do hope you are correct in your thinking that someone must have been aware of all of what is now happening being a situation we would have to face. On the other hand, I hope your end game scenario is not what we are going to see.

Unfortunately, I don't quite share the thought that we did, in fact, plan that far ahead. I guess you are only as smart/informed as what you read since we are not there but it seems to me that we not only goofed for whatever reason on the infrastructure question but probably on the lack of support for our candidates to eventually run the country (the expatriates, some of whom had not been in country for decades), the essential disappearance of several hundred thousand troops (if there ever were that many) instead of the surrender of these troops and perhaps for me the worst situation; the ***** if I can use that term that our erstwhile allies and the United Nations have shown in essentially refusing to join us in any meaningful way to help us out. That is a real jolt to me as I thought there was a little more reason and even greed out there that would overcome their
political posturing for the home folks.

To close this one, I will refer to my first post. We are there, in essence we own the country and are responsible for it. As a reasonably patriotic American I believe that we need to accept the possibility that we will have to live this with only Britain as an ally of substance and get on with a rapid and thorough overhaul of at least the infrastructure and hopefully a well thought out and executed plan to return the governing and policing of the country to the Iraqi people.
Bill

 

Bill, I was playing more a Devil's Advocate, than a believer when I stated it may have been our plan all along to let the country's infrastructure fail. Just looking for a rational explanation to an irrational development in the reconstructive SNAFU we created apparently without any Plan B. I am dissapointed in what appears to be a lack of substantial planning to restore Iraq's economy and government. We looked good going in, but we will not be remembered for that. History will remembered us for the way we left the country.
I fear it will either be a long and drawn out process or a hasty retreat from a temporary government with little or no support from the people.

I don't know why I'm so concerned, it's already the next generation's problem, I'm too old to be included in this generation. I'm no longer on the uphill problem side of things. I'm on the downhill solution side of things. Any new problems are for someone else to work out. I'm not accepting any new problems, just working on cleaning up old solutions.

You didn't hijack the thread Bill, you just gave an open ended statement some direction.
I sincerely hope you are right when you say,

"To close this one, I will refer to my first post. We are there, in essence we own the country and are responsible for it. As a reasonably patriotic American I believe that we need to accept the possibility that we will have to live this with only Britain as an ally of substance and get on with a rapid and thorough overhaul of at least the infrastructure and hopefully a well thought out and executed plan to return the governing and policing of the country to the Iraqi people."

later,
john

 

Well, John maybe that's two of us that should just leave it alone.
My youngest son is 37 and keeps telling me to just "get over it".

One of the frustrating things about being an American is that if you are the least bit patriotic you come off as one form or the other of the infamously famous "Ugly American" (was that an oxymoron or what?). You have probably read most if not all of my posts on the General Discussion threads and you may remember I lived overseas for many years and travelled overseas constantly for the balance of my career. I am realllllly sensitive to the Ugly American image and have always tried to balance my presentations or opinions about who we are and what we are with the knowledge that we aren't any more perfect than anyone else. We are, however, blessed with a geographic situation and an economy that allows us to have the highest true disposable income of any country in the world on a per capita basis and a political system that in my experience allows us pretty much the most freedom in general of any country in the world.

Since that "works for us" I think we tend to be a bit complacent and a bit overbearing when dealing with the rest of the not so fortunate. In general, we don't adapt too well to dealing with other cultures on their turf on their terms.

I hope I am wrong and I am not making a big issue of it here but I am getting a bit concerned that in this age of instant verbal and video communication the rest of the world may be in a position to see and judge us as never before and may not like what they see and act accordingly. Sort of an off target comment, but the League of Nations did not work in part because we did not support it and in part that lead to what eventually developed into WWII. We have given what seems to me to be lukewarm support to the UN in the last 10 years or so, in many cases for good reason, and it does not seem that we together with that organization have accomplished what it was originally intended to accomplish.

John, this is getting too serious and I am preaching too much and it is legal ****tail time so I will knock off for now. Of course after a few belts I may be back.


Bill

 

Well I just have to jump in with so many good post with good opinions and offer my own take on the situation.

First, for anyone reading let me get my biases out of the way. I did support the war on Iraq, for two main reasons. One, I truly believe that Saddam had WMD, and believe most are still there somewhere. Second, I truly believe that Saddam himself would have never used them against America or other free societies but would have sold them to others that would not hesitate to use them against America or other free societies. As far as labels go I would consider myself a conservative republican, though not down the line.

Ok, with that out of the way here is my take on the current situation. First I believe most the coverage here in America is more focused on all the negative aspects of what is currently going on in Iraq. I believe that sales better then pointing out all the good things that have happen.

I do believe mistakes were made, to be honest I knew mistakes would be made. It is reality and regardless who you are no one is perfect and there never will be a perfect plan in anything from business to a military action.

I think the current administration under estimated how quickly the war would be won. I also believe they under estimated how the people of Iraq would react to this win. I don’t think enough thought was giving to just how repressed people would “not” act when fearing the Saddam regime could possibly return. In other words I think the administration thought the Iraq public would just buy off on America telling them “this time we will not leave”. The people of Iraq are not stupid and they remember the last time we said we would help them, then they had an uprising and we never backed them. In conclusion untold thousands died. Very few were willing to risk that again.

I think the situation would have been much better now, moved further forward if we could have captured Saddam, his sons and some of the top regime members alive in the very beginning for all the people to see for themselves that we had him. Even if we hung them all in the public they would have been able to at least “hope” Saddam, his sons and other murders were indeed gone for good.

It is still an unknown situation for them and since they are moving very cautiously (citizens of Iraq) it is slowing down, what I believe, the administration had hoped would be a much more quicker move to order in Iraq.

As has been stated we are now there and it is now are responsibility to stay until the end. If that means another 10 soldiers die or another 1000 die it is still our responsibility to be there.

This war in Iraq, in my opinion, has now become the “big one” It is ours to lose. It is the ultimate test if the free world survives or the terriost survive. This will prove who, the free world or terriost, have the biggest resolve. If we were to leave now the terriost will win and I honestly believe we will never have another chance and riding as much terriosm as is possible at this time.

If we run now with our tail between our legs, it is my belief that terriosm will blossom into something unlike anyone could ever imagine. To leave now would be the ultimate proof to terriost that their violent actions will get them anything they wish and that violent actions will produce for them the results they have always sought.

Just about every nut case terriost organization you can think of is making their way to Iraq to take on the biggest and baddest military and show of force that there is. If they can not do it then no police force in the world can, no politicians, no public no organization in the world will ever be able to defeat terriosm.

In a sense anyone that has followed the war between the Palestine and Israel and all the suicide bombing that is going on will be nothing compared to what will happen here and in other free societies.

This is the war, the defining point in history of who will win, either terriosm or the free societies. That does not mean all terriosm will stop, but will be greatly reduced because they will KNOW we have the resolve to take them on anywhere and anytime…

 

01, knew you'd chip in, glad you did!

Yes Bill, I think the UN is getting to be relatively toothless, in great part because the US is pulling away from the organization. It is becoming less and less the world's policeman and more and more a philosophical adviser and token threat to world unrest. This ties in with 01's statement of Iraq being a big terrorist showdown for us and the rest of the world. I'm not sure that I would agree with Iraq being the last chance to stop terrorists in their tracks. (But I do think we're the only ones, with GB that can or want to do anything substantial about it.) I think our resolve might send a message. I'm just afraid that message might be terrorists need to bolster their worldwide ties to other organizations, and commit acts on a broader, larger scale. Terrorism is Jungle warfare taken to the international level. The enemy doesn't live in a defined border or political entity, it's nebulous, surrounding us, within us. No longer are terrorist cells constantly underfunded and working with antiquated communication and weaponry. This ability alone makes them a viable threat to pop up anywhere, anytime. I believe we're in for a long hard battle wherever we draw the line in the sand, be it Iraq, Iran, Korea, North Africa, Indonesia, etc.

Ugly American sentiment:

You, Bill, have traveled abroad much more than I, but I do have friends on the continent, and in Great Britain. I gather, from what they tell me, that we richly deserve the moniker. The "ugly" part being the arrogant, boisterous, want-it-now attitude, with simple disregard for customs and century old traditions. My friend in Spain recounts that until he traveled here in the States, he thought all American's were the tourists he'd been exposed to in his youth. He said if he'd never come here, he would probably not be a fan of the US. based on those limited contacts.
We, apparently, have gotten away from "Speak softly and carry a big stick", and re-Roosevelt'ed it into: Speak loudly and beat them into submission.

Ah, I've frittered away several sleep hours, better go catch an hour or two.

Interesting conversation, this board always broadens my thought horizon. Humbling experience, way to many intelligent people own Ford Trucks.

 

Not in any special order:
01 XLT Sport: Firstly, and do not if you don't wish to, but it would be nice to know at least your first name as it would be easier to type.

Secondly, what a refreshing exchange this time. Maybe we are all becoming a little bit more reflective as our posts have a little bit less edge even though we are putting down our thoughts as we believe them. I like that.

I have learned the hard way not to put words into others mouths but I am getting a sense that at least the three of us think kind of more or less along parallel lines but with different slants and different emphasis's (just invented another new word) on how this thing came to be, where we think it is now and where it should go from here. I doubt we will have much influence on the last part but I think we are doing our best as involved bystanders to present our feelings.

My title line for this post comes from this week's edition of Newsweek which I got in the mail yesterday. It is still not on the net but you can probably access it in a day or two.
Anyway, the Sept. 1 issue has a marvelous article by Fareed Zakaria, who has been in the spotlight in this magazine for the last 8 months or so as a "commentator" which is entitled "What should be do now?". The cover of the magazine has a great picture of one of our military holding up his hands and with the caption "So What's Plan B?). This will come off as harsher than I intend it but I will only quote one line from the article.

"It is time for America to recognize that the occupation of Iraq needs fixing. This has been a massive enterprise undertaken with little planning and extreme arrogance."

Personally, I do not agree with all of that quote in that the execution of Operation Iraqi Freedom required a monumental amount of planning. I think all of us served in some form of military service and the accomplishments of the initial military part of the operation would not have happened without such planning.

Pretty much the rest of the article deals with issues that we have been discussing these last few days and I personally feel that we have all done our homework. We have come up with more or less the same personal answer. We got the first part right because that is something we do pretty well. We are struggling with the rest of it because it seems we don't really have an answer for the aftermath. And, if the pundits are correct, and don't shoot too hard at me for this, we may have as a Government folks that just did not want to deal with it on a realistic basis post the occupation.

Wel, Pat says it is time for dinner so I will sign off.

Looking forward for some comments.
Bill

 

I believe your quote there has merit, I do believe there is some truth to it to a point. Where I differ is I don’t really believe that the current administration is basically refusing or just not wanting to deal with it but is faced with a dilemma. Follow me if you can, as this may get a bit confusing because I am trying to write this the best I can, however if someone wishes to question it please feel free.

To begin with I think there are many parts to this dilemma, if you will. To begin with and the easiest to explain is “interest”.

How many Americans or any other citizens are “really” interested in what is going on in Iraq. Sure there were many when it was basically a “mini-movie” on TV (live coverage) it had action, suspense and was very interesting to watch.

But, how many are really interested. Many listen to the little 10 second sound bites on TV news. Look here as a good example, we have 40,000 plus members but how many actually debate or discuss what is actually happening in Iraq? A handful at best.

Many people, especially Americans lose interest quickly and get bored fast. We, us here know that the war itself was the easy part, yes a lot of planning to pull it off as well as they did, but very easy, go in kick butt and take over.

The hard part is putting the pieces back together, trying to figure out just what is a priority and what isn’t. To begin with there was never a surrender, no government and no military to give up and surrender. They just all left. Did the administration plan for that? I would like to think that it crossed their mind as I am sure hundreds if not thousands of possibilities crossed their mind.

In the end the truth is no one could have known how it was going to go. To be honest I believe the administration knew it was going to have to be a “deal with things as they happen” try to plan for the worst, but knew it would indeed change.

I don’t care if it was a democrat in office or a republican in the office, neither would be able to come out and tell people, honestly, “Hey, there is going to be mistakes, there will be things we did not plan on and we will deal with it as we go”

This is not like the old days during WWI, WWII or even Vietnam were news was delayed, sometimes for long periods. This in my opinion gave those in charge a little breathing room and gave them the advantage of not having to worry about satisfying the 24hr news 10 second sound bites.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe it is the public’s right to know and have the information on what is going on, but we all know public opinion rules the day anymore and that is not necessarily a good thing at times.

So, the administration faces a dilemma. How to go about handling the war aftermath and rebuilding in a 24hr fishbowl. That would not be bad if the majority of the public really had interest and knowledge of what is going on and not just intrusting some news anchors feelings of what is right and what is wrong. There is no honest debate in that, regardless if it was someone like me with my opinions or someone opposite of me.

To prove my point form all the reading I have done it has been going very well in the rebuilding effort. However if you listen to most news stations you would think we are completely getting are butt kicked over there.

Is there mistakes being made? Yes, and in my opinion that is life, trial and error. Japan was the same way, it was not easy and it did not happen in weeks or months, it took years.

People now days want things done, or want to see goals met in days, weeks or a few months at the longest. Start talking years and they are bored and want to move on to something else.

There is no long term thinking anymore, at least I see very little interest in that in the general public. People can not connect the dots, to look and see that yes service members will die and it is going to cost money. However is it worth say 300 service members dieing and spending say 100 billion dollars to save 30,000 life’s and 10,000 billion dollars over the next 40 years? That is debatable among people like us, but the general public goes numb to it and figures nope, no more death and no more money. Yet that same public would come back if another 5,000 innocent people died and would ask How could our leaders allow this to happen? The dilemma….

I like President Bush, and think he is doing a good job, making mistakes yes, but I feel he is doing a good job. I think what is needed is someone, President Bush now, or after the reelection or if there is someone new to not look at it as in “can I stay another 4 years” but to say “I am the leader, I have the knowledge around me, and we are going to do this right. If I get reelected then so be it, if not then so be it but I am NOT going to worry about the 24hr fishbowl because that is short term and dangerous.”

I think a lot of people would be surprised if someone can out and just told them the hard facts:

Here is where we are, here is where we made mistakes, and here is what we are going to do in the best interest of the public and mankind. If we fail to act then here is what most likely can happen.

In the end that person did the best they could and God forbid if something happen they could always remind people of what they said, and what they choose to do by NOT reelecting him/her back to office. Sometimes it comes down to hard love…

 

Oh, just call me Burt, seems everyone else likes that...

 

 

You guys are going down a dangerous path 'debating' with Burt. Everyone trying to be all courteous, gentlemanly and polite when you know damn good and well he's one french fry short of a Happy Meal!

(Just kidding on you, 01. Your new posting technique is making it harder for me to hate you.)

But I'm working on it!

 

Raoul, I still have this vision of you putting everyone in "pigeon holes". In fact, I think you were the one that told me you did it. I think 01 is modifying the "lair" you've developed for him. I've been trying to follow in your footsteps, but it is very difficult for me to make judgements solely from a web post. I'm workin' on it....

I've got to re-read these posts in the morning when I'm not so sleepy. There's been 50 miles of bike riding, a soccer game and soccer practice this afternoon and evening. I'll reserve posting any comments till then.

john