If you think our UN problems aren't about oil....
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From: NJ
If you think our UN problems aren't about oil....
You may wanna look at this...
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/oil/Iraqoilgas.htm
Scroll down aways to see the existing contracts.
I've decided to include this as as the link to the article may not work. It is from the New York Times OP-ED March 13 2003
The French Connection
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
WASHINGTON
France, China and Syria all have a common reason for keeping American and British troops out of Iraq: the three nations may not want the world to discover that their nationals have been illicitly supplying Saddam Hussein with materials used in building long-range surface-to-surface missiles.
We're not talking about short-range Al Samoud 2 missiles, which Saddam is ostentatiously destroying to help his protectors avert an invasion, nor his old mobile Scuds. The delivery system for mass destruction warheads requires a much more sophisticated propulsion system and fuels.
If you were running the Iraqi ballistic missiles project, where in the world would you go to buy the chemical that is among the best binders for solid propellant?
Answer: to 116 DaWu Road in Zibo, a city in the Shandong Province of China, where a company named Qilu Chemicals is a leading producer of a transparent liquid rubber named hydroxy terminated polybutadiene, familiarly known in the advanced-rocket trade as HTPB.
But you wouldn't want the word "chemicals" to appear anywhere on the purchase because that might alert inspectors enforcing sanctions, so you employ a couple of cutouts. One is an import-export company with which Qilu Chemicals often does business.
To be twice removed from the source, you would turn to CIS Paris, a Parisian broker that is active in dealings of many kinds with Baghdad. Its director is familiar with the order but denies being the agent.
A shipment of 20 tons of HTPB, whose sale to Iraq is forbidden by U.N. resolutions and the oil-for-food agreement, left China in August 2002 in a 40-foot container. It arrived in the Syrian port of Tartus (fortified by the Knights Templar in 1183, and the Mediterranean terminus for an Iraqi oil pipeline today) and was received there by a trading company that was an intermediary for the Iraqi missile industry, the end user. The HTPB was then trucked across Syria to Iraq.
Syria has no sophisticated missile-building program. What rocket weaponry it has comes off the shelf (and usually on credit) from Russia, so it therefore has no use for HTPB. But cash-starved Syria is the conduit for missile supplies to cash-flush Saddam, as this shipment demonstrates. We will have to wait until after the war to find out how much other weaponry, for what huge fees, Saddam has stored in currently un-inspectable Syrian warehouses.
The French connection — brokering the deal among the Chinese producer, the Syrian land transporter and the Iraqi buyer — is no great secret to the world's arms merchants. French intelligence has long been aware of it. The requirement for a French export license as well as U.N. sanctions approval may have been averted by disguising it as a direct offshore sale from China to Syria.
I'm also told that a contract was signed last April in Paris for five tons of 99 percent unsymmetric dimethylhydrazine, another advanced missile fuel, which is produced by France's Société Nationale des Poudre et Explosifs. In addition, Iraqi attempts to buy an oxidizer for solid propellant missiles, ammonium perchlorate, were successful, at least on paper. Both chemicals, like HTPB, require explicit approval by the U.N. Sanctions Committee before they can be sold to Iraq.
Perhaps a few intrepid members of the Chirac Adoration Society, formerly known as the French media, will ask France's lax export-control authorities about these shipments. U.N. inspectors looking at Iraq's El Sirat trading company might try to follow its affiliate, the Gudia Bureau, to dealings in Paris.
Is this account what journalists call a "keeper," one held back for publication at a critical moment, made more newsworthy by the Security Council debate? No; I've been poking around for only about a week, starting with data originating from an Arab source, not from the C.I.A. (Anti-Kurdish analysts at Langley have it in for me for embarrassing them for 18 months on Al Qaeda's ties to Saddam, especially in the terrorist Ansar enclave in Iraqi Kurdistan.)
This detail about the France-China-Syria-Iraq propellant collaboration makes for dull reading, but reveals some of the motivation behind the campaign of those nations to suppress the truth. The truth, however, will out.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/oil/Iraqoilgas.htm
Scroll down aways to see the existing contracts.
I've decided to include this as as the link to the article may not work. It is from the New York Times OP-ED March 13 2003
The French Connection
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
WASHINGTON
France, China and Syria all have a common reason for keeping American and British troops out of Iraq: the three nations may not want the world to discover that their nationals have been illicitly supplying Saddam Hussein with materials used in building long-range surface-to-surface missiles.
We're not talking about short-range Al Samoud 2 missiles, which Saddam is ostentatiously destroying to help his protectors avert an invasion, nor his old mobile Scuds. The delivery system for mass destruction warheads requires a much more sophisticated propulsion system and fuels.
If you were running the Iraqi ballistic missiles project, where in the world would you go to buy the chemical that is among the best binders for solid propellant?
Answer: to 116 DaWu Road in Zibo, a city in the Shandong Province of China, where a company named Qilu Chemicals is a leading producer of a transparent liquid rubber named hydroxy terminated polybutadiene, familiarly known in the advanced-rocket trade as HTPB.
But you wouldn't want the word "chemicals" to appear anywhere on the purchase because that might alert inspectors enforcing sanctions, so you employ a couple of cutouts. One is an import-export company with which Qilu Chemicals often does business.
To be twice removed from the source, you would turn to CIS Paris, a Parisian broker that is active in dealings of many kinds with Baghdad. Its director is familiar with the order but denies being the agent.
A shipment of 20 tons of HTPB, whose sale to Iraq is forbidden by U.N. resolutions and the oil-for-food agreement, left China in August 2002 in a 40-foot container. It arrived in the Syrian port of Tartus (fortified by the Knights Templar in 1183, and the Mediterranean terminus for an Iraqi oil pipeline today) and was received there by a trading company that was an intermediary for the Iraqi missile industry, the end user. The HTPB was then trucked across Syria to Iraq.
Syria has no sophisticated missile-building program. What rocket weaponry it has comes off the shelf (and usually on credit) from Russia, so it therefore has no use for HTPB. But cash-starved Syria is the conduit for missile supplies to cash-flush Saddam, as this shipment demonstrates. We will have to wait until after the war to find out how much other weaponry, for what huge fees, Saddam has stored in currently un-inspectable Syrian warehouses.
The French connection — brokering the deal among the Chinese producer, the Syrian land transporter and the Iraqi buyer — is no great secret to the world's arms merchants. French intelligence has long been aware of it. The requirement for a French export license as well as U.N. sanctions approval may have been averted by disguising it as a direct offshore sale from China to Syria.
I'm also told that a contract was signed last April in Paris for five tons of 99 percent unsymmetric dimethylhydrazine, another advanced missile fuel, which is produced by France's Société Nationale des Poudre et Explosifs. In addition, Iraqi attempts to buy an oxidizer for solid propellant missiles, ammonium perchlorate, were successful, at least on paper. Both chemicals, like HTPB, require explicit approval by the U.N. Sanctions Committee before they can be sold to Iraq.
Perhaps a few intrepid members of the Chirac Adoration Society, formerly known as the French media, will ask France's lax export-control authorities about these shipments. U.N. inspectors looking at Iraq's El Sirat trading company might try to follow its affiliate, the Gudia Bureau, to dealings in Paris.
Is this account what journalists call a "keeper," one held back for publication at a critical moment, made more newsworthy by the Security Council debate? No; I've been poking around for only about a week, starting with data originating from an Arab source, not from the C.I.A. (Anti-Kurdish analysts at Langley have it in for me for embarrassing them for 18 months on Al Qaeda's ties to Saddam, especially in the terrorist Ansar enclave in Iraqi Kurdistan.)
This detail about the France-China-Syria-Iraq propellant collaboration makes for dull reading, but reveals some of the motivation behind the campaign of those nations to suppress the truth. The truth, however, will out.
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From: NH
When this is over we (America) need to really think about what we should do with France. They should be considered an enemy of America and dealt with accordingly. I do not mean go over and bombing them, but very STIFF sanctions, cut off from America diplomatically and basically left to rot on their own.
They have always wanted to be a socialist/communist country so time to let them be one on their own. Some powerful socialist/communist country will come take them over (if America stays out of it and lets France get their @ss kicked). Perhaps France will be taken over by China.
That would serve France and the world a good deed. It will show the world that when a country is so stupid and naive to block those that insure her freedom (which is America) that what you wish for is not always so good.
They have always wanted to be a socialist/communist country so time to let them be one on their own. Some powerful socialist/communist country will come take them over (if America stays out of it and lets France get their @ss kicked). Perhaps France will be taken over by China.
That would serve France and the world a good deed. It will show the world that when a country is so stupid and naive to block those that insure her freedom (which is America) that what you wish for is not always so good.
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From: NJ
01',
Did you check out the "oil" link?? The BIG stuff is ALL France and Russia.
What I don't understand is that the CIA World Factbook lists Iraq's only export as crude oil. It lists the single largest recipient of it's exports @ 46% of total revenues as the Good Ole US of A.... So we all have BIGTIME oil on our hands.
This looks like a worldscale pecker contest, with Saddams weapons as the perfect excuse for us to go in there to shore up the world economy- in our favor, as an added benefit to his dissarmament. Now that is probably the way all the game is always played, i just think that now things look like they could get REALLY bad for the rest of the world, and we risk being viewed by the rest of the world as the Saudi royal family is veiwed by most have-not Saudis.
We gotta be careful and keep our REAL friends and get our fairweather friends in line or BURY THEM.
I also think we're F#$%ing stupid not to put major money into developing Hydrogen to be rid of this oil s#!t- forever, so the rest of the world beats a path to OUR door to keep THEIR lights on, not the other way around.
Think how the balance of power would shift if the middle east became TOTALLY INSIGNIFICANT. Wow, what a concept. They've been at each others throats for centuries, let em have at it, I say. All we'll have to do then is watch our borders and keep our powder dry.
If terrorists attack us or our interests,we find out where they came from and and make a glass factory out of that country (or excuse for one). After that watch how fast they police their own countries so as not to be mistaketly percieved as harboring terrorists.
WT
Did you check out the "oil" link?? The BIG stuff is ALL France and Russia.
What I don't understand is that the CIA World Factbook lists Iraq's only export as crude oil. It lists the single largest recipient of it's exports @ 46% of total revenues as the Good Ole US of A.... So we all have BIGTIME oil on our hands.
This looks like a worldscale pecker contest, with Saddams weapons as the perfect excuse for us to go in there to shore up the world economy- in our favor, as an added benefit to his dissarmament. Now that is probably the way all the game is always played, i just think that now things look like they could get REALLY bad for the rest of the world, and we risk being viewed by the rest of the world as the Saudi royal family is veiwed by most have-not Saudis.
We gotta be careful and keep our REAL friends and get our fairweather friends in line or BURY THEM.
I also think we're F#$%ing stupid not to put major money into developing Hydrogen to be rid of this oil s#!t- forever, so the rest of the world beats a path to OUR door to keep THEIR lights on, not the other way around.
Think how the balance of power would shift if the middle east became TOTALLY INSIGNIFICANT. Wow, what a concept. They've been at each others throats for centuries, let em have at it, I say. All we'll have to do then is watch our borders and keep our powder dry.
If terrorists attack us or our interests,we find out where they came from and and make a glass factory out of that country (or excuse for one). After that watch how fast they police their own countries so as not to be mistaketly percieved as harboring terrorists.
WT
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From: NJ
YA gotta love a man who speaks his mind....
Kurd PM: French, Russians to lose Iraq oil
By Martin Walker
UPI Chief International Correspondent
From the International Desk
Published 3/14/2003 4:28 PM
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WASHINGTON, March 14 (UPI) -- French and Russian oil and gas contracts signed with the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq "will not be honored," Barhim Salih, a leading Iraqi Kurdish official, said in Washington Friday, just before a series of high-level meetings with Bush administration officials.
"A new Iraqi government should not honor any of these contracts, signed against the interests of the Iraqi people. The new Iraqi government should respect those who stood by us, and not those who stood beside the dictator," added Salih, who is prime minister in the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan government that controls Iraq's eastern Kurdish area.
Russian and French oil corporations have each signed draft contracts with Iraq, to come into force only when the United Nations sanctions are lifted, for exploration, development and exploitation of the country's energy resources -- which geologists believe may be the world's second largest after Saudi Arabia. The value of the draft contracts, if fully taken up, is estimated to have a potential of more than $20 billion.
Although there have been dark hints that French and Russian opposition to a second U.N. resolution in the Security Council could have economic consequences, this is the first clear threat from a leading opposition figure from inside Iraq that their oil contracts will not be honored.
"France and Russia should make a decision where they stand," Barhim Salih added, speaking to U.S. policy experts and reporters at the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations Friday. "We would rather see them stand with us. They cannot have it both ways."
Salih is expected to be one of the leading political figures in Iraq, along with the PUK's leader Jalal Talabani, after the fall of Iraq's current leader Saddam Hussein. The Kurdish enclave in northern Iraq, protected for a decade by British and U.S. warplanes enforcing a no-fly zone, has become an island of prosperity and nascent democratic ways.
While there is no guarantee that Salih will be elected to a high position in whatever new government emerges in Baghdad after Saddam, the Iraqi Kurds -- both in the PUK area and those in the region controlled by the Kurdistan Democratic Party and its leader Masud Barzani -- constitute the best-organized opposition in Iraq and are expected to play a decisive role.
Prime Minister Salih went on for talks with senior Bush administration officials on plans for rebuilding post-war Iraq and for creating political stability. His top priority was to dissuade the Bush administration from giving the Turkish military any role in the Kurdish region on northern Iraq.
"Turkish military involvement will invite other neighbors to intervene, like Syria and Iran. This would open Pandora's box. It would create havoc, and compromise the real mission, which is to install representative government and democracy in a stable Iraq, at peace with its neighbors."
He also said that the 70,000 Kurdish troops, mostly with light weapons, at his government's disposal would come under U.S. command in the event of war. And he confirmed intelligence reports that Iraqi troops had affixed explosives to the oil wells near Mosul and Kirkuk.
"Saddam wants to instigate an environmental catastrophe. This is his Armageddon," Salih said. "We are in touch with the Iraqi military, telling them to ignore orders to destroy the wells. We think very few of them will fight. Senior officers at border crossing have asked us to let them know when the moment (for attack) comes so they can escape."
Prime Minister Salih, 42, with a Ph. D in computer science from a British university, said he did "not expect to see Western-style democracy overnight, but some form of representative government will emerge, based on a federal system with wide measures of autonomy for the various regions."
By Martin Walker
UPI Chief International Correspondent
From the International Desk
Published 3/14/2003 4:28 PM
View printer-friendly version
WASHINGTON, March 14 (UPI) -- French and Russian oil and gas contracts signed with the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq "will not be honored," Barhim Salih, a leading Iraqi Kurdish official, said in Washington Friday, just before a series of high-level meetings with Bush administration officials.
"A new Iraqi government should not honor any of these contracts, signed against the interests of the Iraqi people. The new Iraqi government should respect those who stood by us, and not those who stood beside the dictator," added Salih, who is prime minister in the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan government that controls Iraq's eastern Kurdish area.
Russian and French oil corporations have each signed draft contracts with Iraq, to come into force only when the United Nations sanctions are lifted, for exploration, development and exploitation of the country's energy resources -- which geologists believe may be the world's second largest after Saudi Arabia. The value of the draft contracts, if fully taken up, is estimated to have a potential of more than $20 billion.
Although there have been dark hints that French and Russian opposition to a second U.N. resolution in the Security Council could have economic consequences, this is the first clear threat from a leading opposition figure from inside Iraq that their oil contracts will not be honored.
"France and Russia should make a decision where they stand," Barhim Salih added, speaking to U.S. policy experts and reporters at the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations Friday. "We would rather see them stand with us. They cannot have it both ways."
Salih is expected to be one of the leading political figures in Iraq, along with the PUK's leader Jalal Talabani, after the fall of Iraq's current leader Saddam Hussein. The Kurdish enclave in northern Iraq, protected for a decade by British and U.S. warplanes enforcing a no-fly zone, has become an island of prosperity and nascent democratic ways.
While there is no guarantee that Salih will be elected to a high position in whatever new government emerges in Baghdad after Saddam, the Iraqi Kurds -- both in the PUK area and those in the region controlled by the Kurdistan Democratic Party and its leader Masud Barzani -- constitute the best-organized opposition in Iraq and are expected to play a decisive role.
Prime Minister Salih went on for talks with senior Bush administration officials on plans for rebuilding post-war Iraq and for creating political stability. His top priority was to dissuade the Bush administration from giving the Turkish military any role in the Kurdish region on northern Iraq.
"Turkish military involvement will invite other neighbors to intervene, like Syria and Iran. This would open Pandora's box. It would create havoc, and compromise the real mission, which is to install representative government and democracy in a stable Iraq, at peace with its neighbors."
He also said that the 70,000 Kurdish troops, mostly with light weapons, at his government's disposal would come under U.S. command in the event of war. And he confirmed intelligence reports that Iraqi troops had affixed explosives to the oil wells near Mosul and Kirkuk.
"Saddam wants to instigate an environmental catastrophe. This is his Armageddon," Salih said. "We are in touch with the Iraqi military, telling them to ignore orders to destroy the wells. We think very few of them will fight. Senior officers at border crossing have asked us to let them know when the moment (for attack) comes so they can escape."
Prime Minister Salih, 42, with a Ph. D in computer science from a British university, said he did "not expect to see Western-style democracy overnight, but some form of representative government will emerge, based on a federal system with wide measures of autonomy for the various regions."
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From: NJ
Let's hope we have the resolve to keep them SOL, and not succumb to outside pressure to appease any stupid world bodies. Or allow them to extort us for help elsewhere on the planet.
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From: NJ
Yeah man i was wonderin' what happened to you....
Put a grand in your truck???
Wud ya fill it up with hi-test???
Man i hope we get on with this soon. I'm startin to worry that if Saddam plans to go down with the ship he's gonna try and secure his immortality in the arab (muslim) by launching on Israel, and our troops with bio/chem weapons and wasting the wells-(scorched earth).
In fact I had a dream last night that he fired nuke artillery shells nobody dreamed he had - on our troops pre emptively - That shook me up, had trouble gettin back to sleep after that. Must have been bubbling around in my sub conscious.
Let's hope not.
WT
Put a grand in your truck???
Wud ya fill it up with hi-test???
Man i hope we get on with this soon. I'm startin to worry that if Saddam plans to go down with the ship he's gonna try and secure his immortality in the arab (muslim) by launching on Israel, and our troops with bio/chem weapons and wasting the wells-(scorched earth).
In fact I had a dream last night that he fired nuke artillery shells nobody dreamed he had - on our troops pre emptively - That shook me up, had trouble gettin back to sleep after that. Must have been bubbling around in my sub conscious.
Let's hope not.
WT
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From: Tustin,Ca
Originally posted by WhiskeyTango
Yeah man i was wonderin' what happened to you....
Put a grand in your truck???
Wud ya fill it up with hi-test???
Man i hope we get on with this soon. I'm startin to worry that if Saddam plans to go down with the ship he's gonna try and secure his immortality in the arab (muslim) by launching on Israel, and our troops with bio/chem weapons and wasting the wells-(scorched earth).
In fact I had a dream last night that he fired nuke artillery shells nobody dreamed he had - on our troops pre emptively - That shook me up, had trouble gettin back to sleep after that. Must have been bubbling around in my sub conscious.
Let's hope not.
WT
Yeah man i was wonderin' what happened to you....
Put a grand in your truck???
Wud ya fill it up with hi-test???
Man i hope we get on with this soon. I'm startin to worry that if Saddam plans to go down with the ship he's gonna try and secure his immortality in the arab (muslim) by launching on Israel, and our troops with bio/chem weapons and wasting the wells-(scorched earth).
In fact I had a dream last night that he fired nuke artillery shells nobody dreamed he had - on our troops pre emptively - That shook me up, had trouble gettin back to sleep after that. Must have been bubbling around in my sub conscious.
Let's hope not.
WT
Bomb us with weapons that he claims doesn't exist anywhere in Iraq. He has made the it clear he will use bio/chem weapons in case of war.
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From: NJ
I just heard that he has bridges over the Euphrates rigged to blow as well as the wells and pipeline to freeze our armor.
It also doesn't help that so many of our newest tanks are floating in the Med.
The Turks are in this up to their friggin fez's. With the frogs.
This is what worries me, when the most "democratic" arab nation acts this way it doesn't bode well for "re-programing " Iraqis. It's kinda like the lion trainer that raises the lion from a kitten then one day it bites his friggin arm off. Some things can't be changed.
WT.
It also doesn't help that so many of our newest tanks are floating in the Med.
The Turks are in this up to their friggin fez's. With the frogs.
This is what worries me, when the most "democratic" arab nation acts this way it doesn't bode well for "re-programing " Iraqis. It's kinda like the lion trainer that raises the lion from a kitten then one day it bites his friggin arm off. Some things can't be changed.
WT.
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From: NH
You know the worst part of this whole thing if Saddam does use the weapons he has (that nobody else wants to believe) is all these wussies like France will still not credit America for knowing the truth.
I can hear wussies like France now:
“Well, if America had not went there to begin with Saddam would not have ever used the weapons he does not have, we have no proof that the weapons Saddam had were really his to begin with.”
That is when it will be time to go in and replace the leadership in France!
I can hear wussies like France now:
“Well, if America had not went there to begin with Saddam would not have ever used the weapons he does not have, we have no proof that the weapons Saddam had were really his to begin with.”
That is when it will be time to go in and replace the leadership in France!
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From: NJ
Ain't that the truth... I heard tonight that Chirac got in only because the ultra right wing guy that everyone liked started to scare people. I remember hearing about that. It's kinda like the opposite of what happened here, they essentially got stuck with the french GORE...Not that Geo. W. is ultra right wing - but you get my drift- Thank God we're not in their shoes.
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From: southern california
What do you think france will have to say when we discover ,*** grave sites all over iraq. (trust me they are there) Then those idiots in france will realize how bad saddam is he is the next cumming of hitler and if we dont do anything right away it will only get worse. everyone ignored hitler at first as well and look what happenend then. hitler should have been taken out in 1938.
As far as not getting saddam in the first gulf war the only reson we didnt go into bagdad was because the u.n. told us not to. Well the u.n. has now shown itself to be anti american and antisemetic so its time for the U.S.A. to get out of the un and the un to get out of the U.S.A. I for one am sick of haveing to deal with the u.n. we shouldnt have gone to the u.n. in the first place. but i under stand why we did,( it was for only one reason, becaus ewe needed to to help tony blair and after all england has been behind us all the way and they usually are)
If we leave the u.n think of all the money we would save as a country. We are paying 1/4 of the u.ns bills and we get nothing in return so f**k em
I have one thing to say to the Iraqi people, dont worry it will get better soon
saddam must die
As far as not getting saddam in the first gulf war the only reson we didnt go into bagdad was because the u.n. told us not to. Well the u.n. has now shown itself to be anti american and antisemetic so its time for the U.S.A. to get out of the un and the un to get out of the U.S.A. I for one am sick of haveing to deal with the u.n. we shouldnt have gone to the u.n. in the first place. but i under stand why we did,( it was for only one reason, becaus ewe needed to to help tony blair and after all england has been behind us all the way and they usually are)
If we leave the u.n think of all the money we would save as a country. We are paying 1/4 of the u.ns bills and we get nothing in return so f**k em
I have one thing to say to the Iraqi people, dont worry it will get better soon
saddam must die
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From: NJ
Originally posted by punkrockford
What do you think france will have to say when we discover ,*** grave sites all over iraq. (trust me they are there) everyone ignored hitler at first as well and look what happenend then
its time for the U.S.A. to get out of the un and the un to get out of the U.S.A.
If we leave the u.n think of all the money we would save as a country. We are paying 1/4 of the u.ns bills and we get nothing in return so f**k em
I have one thing to say to the Iraqi people, dont worry it will get better soon
saddam must die
What do you think france will have to say when we discover ,*** grave sites all over iraq. (trust me they are there) everyone ignored hitler at first as well and look what happenend then
its time for the U.S.A. to get out of the un and the un to get out of the U.S.A.
If we leave the u.n think of all the money we would save as a country. We are paying 1/4 of the u.ns bills and we get nothing in return so f**k em
I have one thing to say to the Iraqi people, dont worry it will get better soon
saddam must die
As for mass graves I saw Robin Wright (of LA Times) on with Russert last night and she said while she was in northern iraq that the 5000 people gassed on the tape we've all seen is nothing. She said there are 182,000 northern iraqis UNACCOUNTED for!! Now I don't know if that's nebulous enough to mean many of those are now in Turkey but , she's kinda hot so I'll believe anything she says.......
As for Hitler, all the passifists and the Pope, were against attacking him or even interfering. People don't learn, if you take the Bible as the most common example, people were doing and thinking the EXACT SAME THINGS then as they are now.
Things will get better for the iraqis, but how long before they bite the hand that feeds them. People don't change....
Last edited by WhiskeyTango; Mar 16, 2003 at 10:20 AM.