Ignition Upgrade...
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,390
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Originally Posted by tfast150
Is there an MSD or other igniton upgrade kits for the 03 5.4L?...individual coils per sparkplug...havent been able to actually find one..
http://www.troyerperformance.com/cgi...ion%20Upgrades
MSD has this - look for 'Stacker' = http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_29_7020.htm
Coils & other stuff = http://www.troyerperformance.com/cgi...3BCoil%20Packs
Last edited by MGDfan; Aug 18, 2007 at 09:07 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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From: houston
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 379
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From: Granger, IN
Originally Posted by tfast150
Is there an MSD or other igniton upgrade kits for the 03 5.4L?...individual coils per sparkplug...havent been able to actually find one..
Ya, from MSD, to really do it right, will take two DIS-4 controllers, harnesses, noise filters of some sort. I actually inquired myself from MSD a few months ago, was gonna run to about $1200 to $1500 and no idea of what gains. My thought was it was too much $$$ and to little known about gains.
Actually, just found the email an MSD tech sent back to me:
Originally Posted by MSD tech
Your truck has 8 individual coils so the installation is a little more
involved then normal. The ignition box that you can use is the DIS 4
part number 62152(2 of them). You will also need four of the 89121
adapters. This unit will provide you with better throttle response, a
single stage timing retard, a two step rev-limiter, a hotter spark, and
has a built in theft interrupt circuit. You can use our PN 88813 harness
to simplify the installation. I would also recommend our PN 8830 noise
filter to help avoid problems down the road with electrical
interference. These will be available through one of our dealers listed
on our web page.
involved then normal. The ignition box that you can use is the DIS 4
part number 62152(2 of them). You will also need four of the 89121
adapters. This unit will provide you with better throttle response, a
single stage timing retard, a two step rev-limiter, a hotter spark, and
has a built in theft interrupt circuit. You can use our PN 88813 harness
to simplify the installation. I would also recommend our PN 8830 noise
filter to help avoid problems down the road with electrical
interference. These will be available through one of our dealers listed
on our web page.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,200
Likes: 39
From: Easton, Pa.
What they gave you for info is for hi hp race motors.
If your's is not in that class, you don't need equipment like that.
Let me touch on a few basics.
Your normal ignition needs is in the 15 to 20,000 volt range at worse case, even for a near stock engine.
The stock coils are good for about 35,000 volts assuming no faults.
With higher voltage coils, you may 'think' you feel more, (power of suggestion) but the same voltages are still used to fire the plugs. They can't be forced to fire at higher voltages. The current in the gap may rise but will still be of little difference.
Only difference with higher voltage coils is greater reserve voltage that will never be used (marketing hype).
The rest of the control hardware is all a waist if you don't have a use for any of it's capabilities.
Nomally you cannot feel less than a 10 hp gain.
There is not that much in an ignition change unless there was some problem to begin with, that new parts fixed.
If your's is not in that class, you don't need equipment like that.
Let me touch on a few basics.
Your normal ignition needs is in the 15 to 20,000 volt range at worse case, even for a near stock engine.
The stock coils are good for about 35,000 volts assuming no faults.
With higher voltage coils, you may 'think' you feel more, (power of suggestion) but the same voltages are still used to fire the plugs. They can't be forced to fire at higher voltages. The current in the gap may rise but will still be of little difference.
Only difference with higher voltage coils is greater reserve voltage that will never be used (marketing hype).
The rest of the control hardware is all a waist if you don't have a use for any of it's capabilities.
Nomally you cannot feel less than a 10 hp gain.
There is not that much in an ignition change unless there was some problem to begin with, that new parts fixed.
Normally Unnecessary Modification
Co-Sign with "Blue Grass" on all accounts.
At the extreme limits of most engines where there is extensive turbo, supercharging, and possibly nitrous enhancement would this be even considered. When I mean extreme I an talking about circuit dragsters up in the 800-2000 BHP range. At very high compression rates and high rotational speeds could some boosting of the spark voltage be of benefit. The only other benefit that I can surmise from these mods have to do with aftermarket timing adjustment, and rev control which is not usually available in OEM systems.
At the extreme limits of most engines where there is extensive turbo, supercharging, and possibly nitrous enhancement would this be even considered. When I mean extreme I an talking about circuit dragsters up in the 800-2000 BHP range. At very high compression rates and high rotational speeds could some boosting of the spark voltage be of benefit. The only other benefit that I can surmise from these mods have to do with aftermarket timing adjustment, and rev control which is not usually available in OEM systems.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,200
Likes: 39
From: Easton, Pa.
The igntion needs of any engine is dependent on the build and application.
High cylinder pressures usually require hi spark energy.
The conditions in the spark gap can be one of di-electric constant and mixture swerl such that the spark kernal could be blown in a long side ways arc between the plug tip and the ground strap.
If severe enough, it gets blown out.
The top fuel motors are in the 5000 + hp range now and use dual magnetos and spark plugs.
There is so much liquid fuel being blown into the cylinders that one missfire hydrolocks a cylinder and blows the motor all over the strip.
As far as timing, the nitro is so slow burning that the ignition advance needs are way early and still what you see at the pipes is fuel still burning as it exits the pipes, hence the yellow orange color you see.
Two reasons the pipes are upswept are the horizontal dangers posed and the pressure from the pipes upward sweep helps keep the car's traction.
5000 hp is a lot of force.
Basicly, for a given engine design, there is limit on the needs for hi voltages at the plugs to be just enough to cover all normal operating needs as designed plus a good amount of reserve.
When the reserve fails, you get drivability issues right away.
Beyond this, a failure is detected by the driver and some times not able to be picked up by the control system.
Depending on how you look at it, the factory may not design to pick up every conceivable fault that could occurr, although they could, as the faults become known over time and rated for importance.
Owning the modern vehichle and trying to handle faults is getting more and more beyond the average owner.
Installing parts that have capability beyond these levels, is a waiste.
High cylinder pressures usually require hi spark energy.
The conditions in the spark gap can be one of di-electric constant and mixture swerl such that the spark kernal could be blown in a long side ways arc between the plug tip and the ground strap.
If severe enough, it gets blown out.
The top fuel motors are in the 5000 + hp range now and use dual magnetos and spark plugs.
There is so much liquid fuel being blown into the cylinders that one missfire hydrolocks a cylinder and blows the motor all over the strip.
As far as timing, the nitro is so slow burning that the ignition advance needs are way early and still what you see at the pipes is fuel still burning as it exits the pipes, hence the yellow orange color you see.
Two reasons the pipes are upswept are the horizontal dangers posed and the pressure from the pipes upward sweep helps keep the car's traction.
5000 hp is a lot of force.
Basicly, for a given engine design, there is limit on the needs for hi voltages at the plugs to be just enough to cover all normal operating needs as designed plus a good amount of reserve.
When the reserve fails, you get drivability issues right away.
Beyond this, a failure is detected by the driver and some times not able to be picked up by the control system.
Depending on how you look at it, the factory may not design to pick up every conceivable fault that could occurr, although they could, as the faults become known over time and rated for importance.
Owning the modern vehichle and trying to handle faults is getting more and more beyond the average owner.
Installing parts that have capability beyond these levels, is a waiste.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 379
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From: Granger, IN
Originally Posted by Bluegrass
The igntion needs of any engine is dependent on the build and application.
High cylinder pressures usually require hi spark energy.
The conditions in the spark gap can be one of di-electric constant and mixture swerl such that the spark kernal could be blown in a long side ways arc between the plug tip and the ground strap.
If severe enough, it gets blown out.
Owning the modern vehichle and trying to handle faults is getting more and more beyond the average owner.
Installing parts that have capability beyond these levels, is a waiste.
High cylinder pressures usually require hi spark energy.
The conditions in the spark gap can be one of di-electric constant and mixture swerl such that the spark kernal could be blown in a long side ways arc between the plug tip and the ground strap.
If severe enough, it gets blown out.
Owning the modern vehichle and trying to handle faults is getting more and more beyond the average owner.
Installing parts that have capability beyond these levels, is a waiste.
I agree, if you have a 60,000 volt coil(Granatelli's from Troyer for example) but only 20,000 is ever needed because of the gap and other conditions, then the extra 40,000 volts are a waist.
However, I was looking at MSD for other options such as getting a longer duration of spark along with capacitive discharge, maybe even spark on the exhaust stroke thru the MSD controller to get power out of burning the unused fuel for 1/4 mile runs. But it was too much money for too much mystery.
