Man, a Steve vs. Steve Smackdown - just in time for the holidays! This is almost as good as RockPick and 01 XLT Sport going at it on Zaino in the General Care forum a few years back. If you guys don't mind, I'm going to pull up a chair and pop a tall, cold one. By the way, my money is on Steve.

 

I've been reading too many of these types of responses to peoples' questions on this site and it has become quite comical. The guy asked for an answer to a problem he was facing and all of a sudden it is a big pissing match. We go on here to ask for help and provide some educated responses to others in the F150 community that may not be as knowledgeableas others and look at where this thread has headed. The guy gets a few answers and then it turns into a who's d*$k is bigger fest. I just find this more and more often on this site and it is comical that this is what the site has turned in to.

 

Not to defend jumping down folks throats, but this site has always been a pretty decent place to go for good information. (That's how I landed here.) But, since everybody has the right to their own opinion, many opinions tend to get shared here. That's where we sometimes run into problems. If somebody (for instance) thinks that the best way to tap into a wire is to "cut it with a dull knife, twist the ends together and then spit on it", then should we allow that to go un-touched? (OK, that one's a pretty easy call.) But I think you see my point.

SSCULLY takes the time to answer every request for electrical help posted in here and he's darn good (and patient) with his advice. I'd really hate to loose somebody like him because some folks who don't know as much drown him out. So I guess I'm willing to put up with some amount of crap as long as I know who I can really trust. You can tell who you can really trust here pretty easily. If you can poke a little fun at them and both come away laughing, they're OK in my book. Right Steve?

 

Ill be the independent party here, and say actually the best way to do splice, join, or merge or w.e wires is Solder and shink wrap

 

As an electrician, I dont think you can use one of those devices to connect anything higher than ~24V. Not allowed by canadian code anyway. It may be in the ceiling above you in a lighting circuit but only the control circuit of 24v.

Solder is always best when you can for automotives.

Wire nuts inside an approved box with suitable clamps for 120v +.

Great cage match you guys!

 

I too have withdrawn trying to help as much because of certain peoples' conduct of jumping on nearly every thread with a lot of non-sense.
I have been on boards for more than 10 years and presently on more than 10 boards and a moderator on one.
I have seen peoples pattern of reponses from various parts of the country and even the world, by people that are influened by where they live, the times and stations in life they have.
Trying to fit in and handle all these sometimes becomes a trying task and sometimes results in a heavey disagreement that I sometimes have to defend against at times or just get 'run over'. You see people get pretty brave behind a key board where they would not be so inclined in a face to face meeting about same..
I realize there are specialty people here that can jump all over some one for wrong procedure, lack of knowledge and just plain error and to them I would say 'consider' some moderation. It dosn't buy you anything in the end.
There are people who outright show ignorance and need that first reply about it before they can even be helped or you waist you time trying. Saw it many many times.
For some of these threads to just keep on with useless bannter is usually recognized for what it is USELESS because some body wants attention to often.:santa:

 

Bluegrass,

It's folks like you, RockPick, Wandell, Qunitin, SSCULLY (and many others) that keep this site glued together - and we thank you. I agree 100% with you in that it's tough for those of us who really do know a thing or two to just let "bad advice" fly by unanswered. I too refuse to engage in mud slinging, but there are a few folks who deserve no better. Keep up the good work!

 

SSCULLY
You said your T-tap was NOT a "Scotch-Lock" (capitalized name brand in my 1st post) and that I should be able to see the difference. I post a link showing the exact same item made by 3M under the Scotchlok line (OK I spelled it wrong the 1st time) called a T-Tap. But you're still telling me I'm wrong on that point. How do you justify that?

Then you said a T-tap is OK for cars because it's OK for buildings. I point out that being OK for a building does NOT make a connector OK for a car, and I give wire nuts as an alternate example. From what I read, most people participating in this thread agree that most Scotchlok-style connectors used in cars are NOT effective over time (possibly due to user error; possibly because they're not well-suited to the application), but you still stand by your building-application "proof" that Scotchloks are OK for cars. This point isn't whether they are UNsafe in cars - the point is that not all good building connectors are suited to cars. Do you agree or disagree?

From your replies, I can tell that you DO know something about electricity & the risk/danger/safety issues with damaged wiring (whether due to strands being cut by a Scotchlok ,or due to corrosion from opened insulation, or any number of other causes that degrade the conductors), but you still seem unwilling to accept that the damage commonly noted with Scotchloks in car wiring IS a safety problem worth avoiding. It's precisely the same reason that Aluminum wiring isn't allowed any more - the nicked/pinched/cut wires can spark/heat inside the insulation & start a fire. Or do you think that's NOT a real risk with Scotchlok-style connectors in cars? I think it is, because I've seen it more than once.

Yes, it's possible to damage a wire with the procedure I recommended, but IMO it's not NEARLY as likely as history shows it is with Scotchloks. How many times have you had to repair that type of connection? I never have - every one I've ever seen (done by pro, amateur, or novice) has held up indefinitely with no problems, other than maybe the tape coming loose, which was covered by the recommendation of the zip-tie. In your personal experience, which connection is more LIKELY to become a problem over time?

Let's not get off-topic into contract law.

You really need to study up on your physics - any derivation of Ohm's Law still qualifies as Ohm's Law (V = R x i), and that's not anywhere CLOSE to Kirchoff's Law (the sum of the voltage drops around any closed loop in the network must equal zero). But you're not even applying Ohm's Law correctly, on 2 levels:
1) INcreasing resistance doesn't INcrease load, or current - the opposite occurs.
2) You're treating the system as though POWER is constant, but it's not. VOLTAGE is constant. The electric company doesn't adjust the voltage so that your fan motor always gets the same current, so as you add poor connections (resistance) to your circuit, the current (load) in the circuit will DROP. Same for a car - the voltage regulator holds the voltage (relatively) constant.
Do you agree or disagree with that?

Using injury or death to emphasize the hazards of poor electrical connections is a PERFECT example of hyperbole.

I read your poor logic several times already, but you chopped this in with no explanation:
Vibration of plastic in a loom...
Where did this magical vibration come from, and how is it occuring INSIDE a loom filled with wires? If the whole loom is vibrating as a unit, then the wires inside won't abrade each other, regardless. And if it IS occuring inside there, why do you think adding a zip-tie (filling in space, making it harder for one wire to move against another) would have anything but a REDUCING effect on it? If it actually is occuring, the wires will abrade & short whether a splice is made or not, with a zip-tie or not.

Bluegrass
I totally agree about "useless banter" & "nonsense", but this discussion is PRECISELY on-topic for this thread. The question is: how should a wire be tapped in a car? SSCULLY offered a suggestion that I (& several others subsequently) think is incorrect. Rather than simply "calling BS", I gave a concise, polite, & poigniant explanation of WHY I disagreed. He's defending his opinion; I'm defending mine; and IMO, we're both staying on-topic. What else is a BBS for?

2stroked
I don't know where the "mud slinging" comment came from - I haven't noticed any personal attacks in this thread yet, but your comments appear to be "useless banter" & "nonsense". (Now THAT was some lighthearted mudslinging!)

 

I'm not looking to add fuel to the fire, but I will anyways...

Steve made reference to seeing ScotchLoks still in use years later on a vehicle. FWIW, the scotch loks (or T-taps, whichever you prefer) in my Explorer have been in use for 9 years, and they're doing fine. I've used butt connectors too, and they're still working fine. With where I needed to make the connections (in my IP, way back in behind some stuff) butt connectors and solder connections were impractical as there was no way I could get the third wire, the soldering iron, a hand to hold the soldering iron, solder, and a hand to feed the solder with through the 4" opening in the dash. A T-tap was the only way the job was going to get done. When last I saw it (about a year ago), it was still in fine condition, no heat discoloration around the joint, and the accessory it was powering (radar detector and CB radio) worked just fine.

I've used butt connectors under the hood too.... fill them full of dielectric grease, crimp them on teh wires, then seal them in shrink tubing or the good 3-m electrical tape, and they're still running too. I fail to see how a proven history makes them 'unsafe.'

Sure, I'll take a sealed solder joint over either of those two alternatives any day. They're more reliable, stronger, and last longer, and are always the best choice. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't any other perfectly viable alternatives. To suggest otherwise is just preposterous.

 

DONE !

 

Sculley, who ta hell cares.
Your head is bigger than you a$$ at this pont.

 

I’ve got to agree with you. Although I hate Scotch Locks and have had nothing but trouble with them, I love the T-Taps and have never had one fail. I’ve probably installed around 50 of them in various vehicles. I too fill them with Dielectric Grease – which no doubt helps prevent oxidation and eventual failure. I also agree that done properly, a soldered joint is the absolute best way to go. I probably have about an equal number of soldered joints running around too.

Let me try a slightly different wrinkle though – quality. If one knows what they’re doing (and has the access), a soldered joint is the way to fly. That said, there’s a lot more variability in the quality of solder joints – even amongst those of us that do it all the time. When you toss in the variability around taping that joint, we’re talking multiple opportunities to mess up. Oh yea, and then there’s the ability to fry the insulation around the joint.

So why do I like the taps? It’s kind of like MacDonald’s burgers. They may not be the best burgers in the world, but they taste the same in Beijing or Burbank. Said another way, the variability in the process is low. The T-Taps allow even somebody with limited experience to get the same quality joint as a pro - using the same process. Man, this one ought to get me flayed just in time for Christmas!

Now as for Steve and Steve, could you please return to neutral corners?

 

...I like pie.

I think we all get a little heated in our debates from time to time; let's not let it detract from the overall quality of the forum and its members.

 

So which is it? You're flip-flopping on this one:
It was capitalized in my first post (it was originally lower-case in the 2nd to emphasize the generic usage), but if you thought I was using the term generically, then why did you tell me I was wrong, since you admit that your T-tap is a Scotchlok-type? If you thought I was using the brand name, how could ANYONE tell by the photo what brand it is? What about your photo makes the brand "more than obvious"???

In any case, I think we've all agreed by now that my use of the term WAS correct: your photo is of a "Scotchlok" connector, or at the very least, a Scotchlok-type. Right?


No one cares about wire nuts or pipe, so stop trying to change the subject. We're discussing YOUR statement that Scotchloks are fine for cars BECAUSE they're fine for buildings.But it seems you've now reversed that opinion, too.I know Aluminum wasn't used in cars, but that's not the point (again). It's an example of what can happen when wires get pinched or nicked, like Scotchloks are specifically engineered to do. Aluminum's removal from building codes had nothing to do with cost - it had to do with its brittle nature & tendency to crack over time as a result of ANY surface scratch, eventually leading to fire (in MANY cases - not "rare"). And it's still illegal for residential & commercial construction in MANY places.

Circuits aren't sentient, so they can't "try" anything. The ALWAYS pull as much current as they possibly can at any instant. And in a (relatively) constant-voltage system (like cars & buildings), once resistance INcreases, current/load/power DEcrease. Period.

I've driven several miles with bad brakes, and I'm not 100% dead or injured as a result. So the hyperbole is applicable, even in your twisted interpretation. But your demonstration was NOT of hyperbole - it was of chop-logic: no logical connection from one step to the next. You still haven't explained how the zip-tie is going to abrade the insualtion off 2 wires & then somehow move out of the way so they can short together. My hyperbole was perfectly logical - it was just an exaggeration of the danger I associate with Scotchloks. I know they CAN be used safely by someone who knows what he's doing (like knives, explosives, & radioactive material). But this thread is about how the TYPICAL person should connect wires for a safe & effective tap into a stock circuit. History shows that TOO MANY Scotchlok connections are made improperly, and they have a MUCH higher tendency to fail than the type I suggested.

That pretty much ends it, then. That's our basic disagreement.

2stroked
I totally agree that filling a Scotchlok with silicone grease will reduce or eliminate its tendency to corrode (especially in exposed applications), but I still wouldn't recommend them to someone who's asking for "the right way to tap into wires". It's still too easy for him to end up with a connector too small for the source wire, and end up causing a lot of damage that will be difficult to track down later.

I don't think a disagreement - even one as long as this one - detracts from the BBS or the members. As long as it's conducted in a civil manner (like I think this one was), I think it's a healthy way to exchange ideas. I still think SSCULLY is wrong on this one, but I don't think any less of him as a contributing member. I hope no one thinks less of me, but I don't have the objectivity to judge myself.

 

Debate / disagreement is what gets information out for other members to make up there own mind. I would agree ( where others think not ) that this is ON TOPIC !

I think no less of you as a contributing member either, who really cares what others think of you, I know I don't.

Want my advice, take it. Don't like it ( or me ) don't take it.
Ignore lists are a great think for those types of members. I know I got 3 new ones on the list from this thread alone.