timeslip results of superchip install!
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Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Orlando, FL
timeslip results of superchip install!
Finally got a chance to take the SCrew to the strip and get some preliminary data:
For my best run I got a CORRECTED ET of 16.75 @ 81.36mph!
R/T = .814
60' = 2.387
330' = 6.938
1/8 = 10.746 @ 64.47
1000' = 14.029
1/4 = 16.804 @ 81.17
track was 74 degrees at 29.96inches
My previous best CORRECTED ET was 17.48 @ 79.75mph
The only modification was the SuperChip install.
Basically, I dropped my ET by 0.73 seconds!
I did some number crunching and based on:
1/4 mph I gained approximately 13.3 rear wheel hp! This accounted for about a 0.33 sec drop in ET. I believe the other 0.40 seconds came from power transmission to the ground via better shifting, also a result of the superchip program.
Even though I didn't see an increase of 20hp I am still very happy with the results. Wait a minute, the 20hp claims were flywheel net right? Not sure what the drivetrain loss is in these trucks. Can someone convert 13 rwhp to flywheel net for me?
Anyway, I was hoping to break into the 16's and I did so with ease. I still have the factory silencer, airbox and air filter on my truck. I plan on making some mods in that area and testing again to see if I can pick up any more power. The SuperChip was money well spent IMO. Thanks to Mike Troyer of Performance Products for helping me with the install, he even called me on the weekend!
For my best run I got a CORRECTED ET of 16.75 @ 81.36mph!
R/T = .814
60' = 2.387
330' = 6.938
1/8 = 10.746 @ 64.47
1000' = 14.029
1/4 = 16.804 @ 81.17
track was 74 degrees at 29.96inches
My previous best CORRECTED ET was 17.48 @ 79.75mph
The only modification was the SuperChip install.
Basically, I dropped my ET by 0.73 seconds!
I did some number crunching and based on:
1/4 mph I gained approximately 13.3 rear wheel hp! This accounted for about a 0.33 sec drop in ET. I believe the other 0.40 seconds came from power transmission to the ground via better shifting, also a result of the superchip program.
Even though I didn't see an increase of 20hp I am still very happy with the results. Wait a minute, the 20hp claims were flywheel net right? Not sure what the drivetrain loss is in these trucks. Can someone convert 13 rwhp to flywheel net for me?
Anyway, I was hoping to break into the 16's and I did so with ease. I still have the factory silencer, airbox and air filter on my truck. I plan on making some mods in that area and testing again to see if I can pick up any more power. The SuperChip was money well spent IMO. Thanks to Mike Troyer of Performance Products for helping me with the install, he even called me on the weekend!
Last edited by ericj205; Oct 31, 2002 at 10:04 AM.
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Joined: May 2000
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From: Virginia Beach, VA
Time to update the sig! 
As a note on the improvements in shifting vs power improvement.... Though I can't say in your application, I have seen first hand the results of removing the power adders parts of a Mustang program. Your estimate that more came from shift strategies and rev limits was correct in his case, and by right about the same margin (as a pertentage) that you mention.
I'd like to see someone sell a shift improvement only chip. I have no desire to buy premium for minimal power gains when the gains can be had elsewhere for less money in the long run. It seems it would be easy for a company to simply take out the other tuning parameters and market a chip changing shift strategies only.... but they won't.
As a note on the improvements in shifting vs power improvement.... Though I can't say in your application, I have seen first hand the results of removing the power adders parts of a Mustang program. Your estimate that more came from shift strategies and rev limits was correct in his case, and by right about the same margin (as a pertentage) that you mention.
I'd like to see someone sell a shift improvement only chip. I have no desire to buy premium for minimal power gains when the gains can be had elsewhere for less money in the long run. It seems it would be easy for a company to simply take out the other tuning parameters and market a chip changing shift strategies only.... but they won't.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 141
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From: Houston, TX
signmaster,
Mike Troyer can burn a chip for you that only has the transmission part of the program. I believe it has been mentioned before in this forum. You may want to contact him for the details.
Mike Troyer can burn a chip for you that only has the transmission part of the program. I believe it has been mentioned before in this forum. You may want to contact him for the details.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi Eric,
Congratulations on besting your ET, & thanks for your post & detailed data!
A few quick points................
1.) The equations calculating HP based on 1/4 mile mph have 1 basic flaw, which is the lack of accounting for drag. Drag is a significant factor in these trucks, and a 13 hp rear wheel gain will generally not achieve a .33 reduction in ET in a 5000 lb. vehicle with the aero profile of an F-150. Just to expound on that a bit (you probably already know this, this is more for those that don't), drag is not a constant, nor does it increase in a linear manner; it rises exponentially as vehicle speed increases. Without properly taking into consideration the drag coefficient of the vehicle, the results from those power figures based on comparisons of 1/4 mile trap speed will always produce an artificially low HP figure especially in these trucks, due to their relatively large aero profile.
2.) The way we determine just how much of an ET improvement or power gained by the Superchip is to do before & after testing on the same day, within as short a time as is reasonably possible & still allow a 30 minute cooldown time between runs to stabilize powertrain temperatures, to negate as much as possible the variances in atmospheric conditions. We have found over the years that this is sometimes more accurate than comparing "corrected" times times run on different days, but of course this also depends to a certain extent on just how good the track gear is as well, some of those corrected ET comparisons can certainly be valid. We test on the same day, usually within about a 90 minute period in a series of 3 runs (stock, chipped and stock again), clearing the PCM before & after each change and allowing a 30 minute cooldown period between each run to stabilize powertrain temperatures. Now in this method, there is still going to be some "skew" due to the fact that it takes a few hundred miles for the PCM to fully adapt & pick up all the program changes from the Superchip and produce maximum power (the tranny changes @ WOT are there right away, we're talking about raw power here only), and thus get the quickest ET's. So we do not see the absolute best ET improvement in the 3-run format within 90 minutes or so, and it's a good example of the fact that no matter what method you use, there's going to be some skew. It would be interesting to see the difference in comparisons, comparing the difference between corrected times run separately (thus allowing the vehicle enough miles fo the PCM to fully adapt to it's new programming) versus the ET difference seen in same-day testing.
The average reduction in ET from the Superchip on these late-model F-150's is about a half a second, with approximately .32-.35 of that coming from the raw power gain, and the other .15-.18 or so coming from the transmission-related changes. There is a range the ET reductions based on F-150 configuration of course, the ET reductions range from a low of about 3-4 tenths in the heaviest 4.2 V-6 5-speeds to over a full second in the lightest automatic transmission models.
3.) The only way to determine how much of a difference our changes to the automatic transmission program affect ET is to do a controlled before & after test with and without those changes. In the testing we've done on this over the years (separate from Superchips testing), we do not generally see that the transmission changes account for a majority of the ET reduction in a majority of these vehicles. Once in a while we will see a vehicle whose soft-shift strategies are so deleterious to performance that this does happen. The *average* % of reduction in ET from automatic transmission changes in these F-150's overall is roughly about a third of the overall ET reduction. Here too there is a range of course, as the power gains from correcting the soft-shift strategies are transitional, and thus cause more reduction in ET in the lighter vehicles.
4.) To answer your question about flywheel versus rear wheel numbers, if we take a 1999 & up 260 hp 5.4 F-150 with the 4R70W automatic transmission, if it's making 260 at the flywheel, you generally get about 195 at the rear wheels. This means we have a 25% driveline loss. Now this is not a constant either, as if we take say, a 1998 4.6 automatic making it's 220 hp SAE Net rating, we get about 155 hp rear wheel, as it still has the same approximately 65 hp driveline loss, but the percentage is increased to a whopping 29.55%. To take that a bit further, in the case of a 360 hp '99 Lightning making it's 360 SAE Net rating, Superchips saw 291 rear wheel (the 4R100 automatic costs 4-5 more HP in driveline losses), for a 19.17% driveline loss.
OK, now to get to what you really wanted to know............ a 13.3 hp gain at the rear wheels equates to roughly a 16.63 hp gain at the flywheel in the aforementioned 5.4 F-150. We know that the derived HP figure from the 1/4 mile mph is low because of not accounting for the drag, so we really don't know just how much peak power was actually gained. Given a .73 reduction in ET in that truck, I'd estimate roughly about an 20 hp gain rear wheel, which would would equate to roughly a 25 hp gain at the flywheel, again in the case of a 5.4 just to pick a powertrain configuration in a SuperCrew, most are 5.4's.
Thanks very much for going to the trouble to get corrected times & all the other data to post here, & we're glad to see you easily hit your goal of dropping into the 16's. If you plan to do more modifications and continue your testing in the future, we'd love to see that data as well!
Congratulations on besting your ET, & thanks for your post & detailed data!
A few quick points................
1.) The equations calculating HP based on 1/4 mile mph have 1 basic flaw, which is the lack of accounting for drag. Drag is a significant factor in these trucks, and a 13 hp rear wheel gain will generally not achieve a .33 reduction in ET in a 5000 lb. vehicle with the aero profile of an F-150. Just to expound on that a bit (you probably already know this, this is more for those that don't), drag is not a constant, nor does it increase in a linear manner; it rises exponentially as vehicle speed increases. Without properly taking into consideration the drag coefficient of the vehicle, the results from those power figures based on comparisons of 1/4 mile trap speed will always produce an artificially low HP figure especially in these trucks, due to their relatively large aero profile.
2.) The way we determine just how much of an ET improvement or power gained by the Superchip is to do before & after testing on the same day, within as short a time as is reasonably possible & still allow a 30 minute cooldown time between runs to stabilize powertrain temperatures, to negate as much as possible the variances in atmospheric conditions. We have found over the years that this is sometimes more accurate than comparing "corrected" times times run on different days, but of course this also depends to a certain extent on just how good the track gear is as well, some of those corrected ET comparisons can certainly be valid. We test on the same day, usually within about a 90 minute period in a series of 3 runs (stock, chipped and stock again), clearing the PCM before & after each change and allowing a 30 minute cooldown period between each run to stabilize powertrain temperatures. Now in this method, there is still going to be some "skew" due to the fact that it takes a few hundred miles for the PCM to fully adapt & pick up all the program changes from the Superchip and produce maximum power (the tranny changes @ WOT are there right away, we're talking about raw power here only), and thus get the quickest ET's. So we do not see the absolute best ET improvement in the 3-run format within 90 minutes or so, and it's a good example of the fact that no matter what method you use, there's going to be some skew. It would be interesting to see the difference in comparisons, comparing the difference between corrected times run separately (thus allowing the vehicle enough miles fo the PCM to fully adapt to it's new programming) versus the ET difference seen in same-day testing.
The average reduction in ET from the Superchip on these late-model F-150's is about a half a second, with approximately .32-.35 of that coming from the raw power gain, and the other .15-.18 or so coming from the transmission-related changes. There is a range the ET reductions based on F-150 configuration of course, the ET reductions range from a low of about 3-4 tenths in the heaviest 4.2 V-6 5-speeds to over a full second in the lightest automatic transmission models.
3.) The only way to determine how much of a difference our changes to the automatic transmission program affect ET is to do a controlled before & after test with and without those changes. In the testing we've done on this over the years (separate from Superchips testing), we do not generally see that the transmission changes account for a majority of the ET reduction in a majority of these vehicles. Once in a while we will see a vehicle whose soft-shift strategies are so deleterious to performance that this does happen. The *average* % of reduction in ET from automatic transmission changes in these F-150's overall is roughly about a third of the overall ET reduction. Here too there is a range of course, as the power gains from correcting the soft-shift strategies are transitional, and thus cause more reduction in ET in the lighter vehicles.
4.) To answer your question about flywheel versus rear wheel numbers, if we take a 1999 & up 260 hp 5.4 F-150 with the 4R70W automatic transmission, if it's making 260 at the flywheel, you generally get about 195 at the rear wheels. This means we have a 25% driveline loss. Now this is not a constant either, as if we take say, a 1998 4.6 automatic making it's 220 hp SAE Net rating, we get about 155 hp rear wheel, as it still has the same approximately 65 hp driveline loss, but the percentage is increased to a whopping 29.55%. To take that a bit further, in the case of a 360 hp '99 Lightning making it's 360 SAE Net rating, Superchips saw 291 rear wheel (the 4R100 automatic costs 4-5 more HP in driveline losses), for a 19.17% driveline loss.
OK, now to get to what you really wanted to know............ a 13.3 hp gain at the rear wheels equates to roughly a 16.63 hp gain at the flywheel in the aforementioned 5.4 F-150. We know that the derived HP figure from the 1/4 mile mph is low because of not accounting for the drag, so we really don't know just how much peak power was actually gained. Given a .73 reduction in ET in that truck, I'd estimate roughly about an 20 hp gain rear wheel, which would would equate to roughly a 25 hp gain at the flywheel, again in the case of a 5.4 just to pick a powertrain configuration in a SuperCrew, most are 5.4's.
Thanks very much for going to the trouble to get corrected times & all the other data to post here, & we're glad to see you easily hit your goal of dropping into the 16's. If you plan to do more modifications and continue your testing in the future, we'd love to see that data as well!
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi 02 Laser Red,
Thanks for your post regarding being able to get just the transmission changes. We do indeed provide Superchips tuned for 87 octane fuel on a special order basis, and while the raw power gain is small compared to the performance tuning for premium gas, they still do get all the other changes, as you mentioned. Very few people have us do that, virtually everyone wants the power gains from the full performance tuning for premium.
This is not something that Superchips will offer as a standard commercial product, it's something that we've started offering in the past couple of years to accomodate those who don't want to burn premium gas but still want the Superchip's other benefits.
Thanks for your post regarding being able to get just the transmission changes. We do indeed provide Superchips tuned for 87 octane fuel on a special order basis, and while the raw power gain is small compared to the performance tuning for premium gas, they still do get all the other changes, as you mentioned. Very few people have us do that, virtually everyone wants the power gains from the full performance tuning for premium.
This is not something that Superchips will offer as a standard commercial product, it's something that we've started offering in the past couple of years to accomodate those who don't want to burn premium gas but still want the Superchip's other benefits.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,856
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From: New Orleans
With the Superchip, I gained 2.5-3mpg, and I drive the truck harder LOL The chip is actually paying for itself. slowly, but it is
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Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 673
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From: Plano, Texas
Originally posted by beastie
With the Superchip, I gained 2.5-3mpg, and I drive the truck harder LOL The chip is actually paying for itself. slowly, but it is
With the Superchip, I gained 2.5-3mpg, and I drive the truck harder LOL The chip is actually paying for itself. slowly, but it is
beastie,
I just did a fill up and noticed I have gained 2 mpg over what I was getting in comparable weather last year. And like you, I can't seem to keep the gas pedal off the floor. I noticed this gas pedal problem started about the same time I put my superchip in. I am starting to think the superchip caused this problem. Maybe we should take a poll to see if others have experienced the same "loose gas pedal" problem with their chip. It must be something in the programming.
Rocks
Thinking a bit more about it, I wanted to see if Mike could put out a chip as standard production with the "chirps at 40" option and the special programming for the "tailgate booster fan" kit and then throw in the "gas peddle on the floor" protector.
Maybe we could do a group purchase.
Last edited by Rocks; Nov 1, 2002 at 04:11 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 479
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From: Tallahassee, FL
My chip is causing the same problems. I feel like the floor is a magnet and my foot is steel. I would be in for the group buy. I haven't even bothered checking my mileage because of this phenomena.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,317
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From: Virginia Beach, VA
Mike,
Just to clarify... In previous threads I was under the impression that the custom tuning would apply to a shift only or similar chip. I THINK this is what you are re-stating, but just wanted to check.
I've considered a flip chip for this purpose as well. If I remember correctly this would be an "off the shelf" item with a standard performance and regular fuel program, correct?
Beastie,
The trick is that you aren't paying any more than the initial cost. Any time that is the case, it's worth it IMO. It seems that many 302 owners report mileage gains that balance the cost of the premium fuel. Since our trucks share the same year, gear ratio, and I believe even calibration code (HUG2?) I suspect I would see similar gains.
Then again, if I could bump my mileage even 2 mpg, I would be getting 17 around town and 22 on the road. Not bad for an extended cab 4x4.
Just to clarify... In previous threads I was under the impression that the custom tuning would apply to a shift only or similar chip. I THINK this is what you are re-stating, but just wanted to check.
I've considered a flip chip for this purpose as well. If I remember correctly this would be an "off the shelf" item with a standard performance and regular fuel program, correct?
Beastie,
The trick is that you aren't paying any more than the initial cost. Any time that is the case, it's worth it IMO. It seems that many 302 owners report mileage gains that balance the cost of the premium fuel. Since our trucks share the same year, gear ratio, and I believe even calibration code (HUG2?) I suspect I would see similar gains.
Then again, if I could bump my mileage even 2 mpg, I would be getting 17 around town and 22 on the road. Not bad for an extended cab 4x4.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,856
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From: New Orleans
Yep, HUG2. I towed a 6000# boat 200 miles today, and I averaged 15mpg with city and highway OD off, and I was turning like 2600 rpms on the highway. And in the city, stop and go traffic with that weight, i think you get the idea. Before the chip when I towed this same trip (completely stock), I usually got about 12, but I am sure that the intake and exhaust probably gave me 1mpg + the chip.
I actually make about $.20 everytime I fill up . Before I got the chip, I was debating whether to get the chip cause of the premium gas, but I just said what the He!!, and I in no way regret my decision. Go for it. Installation can be a little tricky. Get someone to help you. I pulled the computer out through the fender well, much easier than rying to remove that parking break bracket, just get someone to help you.
I actually make about $.20 everytime I fill up . Before I got the chip, I was debating whether to get the chip cause of the premium gas, but I just said what the He!!, and I in no way regret my decision. Go for it. Installation can be a little tricky. Get someone to help you. I pulled the computer out through the fender well, much easier than rying to remove that parking break bracket, just get someone to help you.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi Signmaster,
It doesn't cost anymore to have us do an 87 octane Superchip, custom programming fees do not apply. Nowadays it's just that it's a special order for us rather than a normal production item, so to speak. Superchips won't make a single program Superchip for 87 octane a normal production item, but here at Performance we've been making that available even in the single program Superchip for some time now. The only thing that is different about ordering that product from us compared to ordering the "normal" Superchip is that the order needs to be called in to us instead of going thru our online system.
In reference to Beastie's great mpg results, in all fairness, I wouldn't count on a 2 mpg+ gain in both city & highway driving from the Superchips tuning for premium gas, even though that does happen for some people as we can see. Beastie is indeed getting *excellent* results in his mpg with the Superchip, I just wouldn't *expect* to see that much mpg gain as that may or may not happen from one vehicle to the next. You have a decent chance of that happening I suppose, given that you have the same catch code as Beastie and you are in an area that generally has good quality fuels available, so it's possible; I just wouldn't *expect* it.
Regarding the 2-program Flip Chip, we can put any combination of programs in them (you already know that of course, that's really for others that might not), the dual octane configuration specifically is something we had Superchips start doing for us years ago, so for us that is a standard configuration. You're correct as usual, in the dual octane Flip Chip our standard configuration has a pair of performance programs that are virtually identical except for the octane level the engine is tuned for.
By the way, if you have any questions regarding what we do "in-house" versus what we have Superchips do for us, or anything else you want to know about us, please feel free to give me a call & I'll be more than happy to go over that with you.
It doesn't cost anymore to have us do an 87 octane Superchip, custom programming fees do not apply. Nowadays it's just that it's a special order for us rather than a normal production item, so to speak. Superchips won't make a single program Superchip for 87 octane a normal production item, but here at Performance we've been making that available even in the single program Superchip for some time now. The only thing that is different about ordering that product from us compared to ordering the "normal" Superchip is that the order needs to be called in to us instead of going thru our online system.
In reference to Beastie's great mpg results, in all fairness, I wouldn't count on a 2 mpg+ gain in both city & highway driving from the Superchips tuning for premium gas, even though that does happen for some people as we can see. Beastie is indeed getting *excellent* results in his mpg with the Superchip, I just wouldn't *expect* to see that much mpg gain as that may or may not happen from one vehicle to the next. You have a decent chance of that happening I suppose, given that you have the same catch code as Beastie and you are in an area that generally has good quality fuels available, so it's possible; I just wouldn't *expect* it.
Regarding the 2-program Flip Chip, we can put any combination of programs in them (you already know that of course, that's really for others that might not), the dual octane configuration specifically is something we had Superchips start doing for us years ago, so for us that is a standard configuration. You're correct as usual, in the dual octane Flip Chip our standard configuration has a pair of performance programs that are virtually identical except for the octane level the engine is tuned for.
By the way, if you have any questions regarding what we do "in-house" versus what we have Superchips do for us, or anything else you want to know about us, please feel free to give me a call & I'll be more than happy to go over that with you.
Last edited by Superchips_Distributor; Nov 2, 2002 at 02:55 PM.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi Jay,
Just wanted to drop you a quick note to say I shot you an email last night, & if you don't mind, I'll go over all the specific details, etc. with you when we're back from SEMA this next weekend.
Gotta run & get packed, we're already running late!
Just wanted to drop you a quick note to say I shot you an email last night, & if you don't mind, I'll go over all the specific details, etc. with you when we're back from SEMA this next weekend.
Gotta run & get packed, we're already running late!
