Mike
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From: Los Angeles County
Mike
Hi,
I've never been introduced to you before but i've read a lot in this forum and i can see you're a really intelligible guy and im sure everyone appreciates your input. Anyways, im posting because in the exhaust forum i asked a question about (obviously) exhaust. Speeder answered saying that he had a conversation with you about it and you said that a muffler has to be about 18" long in order to gain low-end, that true? Speeder also said the 40 series doesn't come in 18" only 14" He's looking into magnaflow and i think i might too now. Would the 4" round by 18" long magnaflow be addequate enough to produce good enough sound with low-end? I understand that as a vendor you have to remain somewhat neutral but this is just about tech facts. Also would a SI/DO be louder than true dual with X-Pipe both using magnaflows? I don't really know how much you know about exhaust but i trust your opinion a lot and i thank you for taking the time to read this!
Later, Mark
I've never been introduced to you before but i've read a lot in this forum and i can see you're a really intelligible guy and im sure everyone appreciates your input. Anyways, im posting because in the exhaust forum i asked a question about (obviously) exhaust. Speeder answered saying that he had a conversation with you about it and you said that a muffler has to be about 18" long in order to gain low-end, that true? Speeder also said the 40 series doesn't come in 18" only 14" He's looking into magnaflow and i think i might too now. Would the 4" round by 18" long magnaflow be addequate enough to produce good enough sound with low-end? I understand that as a vendor you have to remain somewhat neutral but this is just about tech facts. Also would a SI/DO be louder than true dual with X-Pipe both using magnaflows? I don't really know how much you know about exhaust but i trust your opinion a lot and i thank you for taking the time to read this!
Later, Mark
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Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
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From: Virginia
Hi Mark,
Nice to "meet" you!
I don't know if I would say that a certain length is absolutely tied to torque production even though it may well be, we didn't test for that *specifically*. What we're talking about when we recommend using the longer muffler is specifically the "drone" effect, where between 1600-2200 rpm you have an intolerably loud resonanting frequency that drives you out of the cabin. We refer to this as "droning". I'd recommend a 24" unit for those who don't want droning, though you may do just fine with an 18" unit.
Magnaflow certainly has better flow engineering than most other brands, including Flowmaster, I would agree with that. However, those 14" long 4" round Magnaflows in particular are going to be loud, and they may drone as well, I can't answer that with certainty, as I have not yet used those units on an F-150 yet. WHich means I can't tell you if they are going to cause a loss in low-end torque, as we just haven't been putting those particular Magnaflow mufflers on these F-150's. Most of our customers are installign the complete cat-back system so they get the full benefit of Magnflow's flow engineering. I'd love to get some feedback on those particular Magnaflows on the F-150! What I would suggest is to give us a call if you can, and let's go over this in some detail, which we can't do very well here on these message boards. That way I can ask you some specific questions and go over exactly what you want to achieve, and then make the best recommendation.
Oh, and please tell Speeder we said Hello!
Nice to "meet" you!
I don't know if I would say that a certain length is absolutely tied to torque production even though it may well be, we didn't test for that *specifically*. What we're talking about when we recommend using the longer muffler is specifically the "drone" effect, where between 1600-2200 rpm you have an intolerably loud resonanting frequency that drives you out of the cabin. We refer to this as "droning". I'd recommend a 24" unit for those who don't want droning, though you may do just fine with an 18" unit.
Magnaflow certainly has better flow engineering than most other brands, including Flowmaster, I would agree with that. However, those 14" long 4" round Magnaflows in particular are going to be loud, and they may drone as well, I can't answer that with certainty, as I have not yet used those units on an F-150 yet. WHich means I can't tell you if they are going to cause a loss in low-end torque, as we just haven't been putting those particular Magnaflow mufflers on these F-150's. Most of our customers are installign the complete cat-back system so they get the full benefit of Magnflow's flow engineering. I'd love to get some feedback on those particular Magnaflows on the F-150! What I would suggest is to give us a call if you can, and let's go over this in some detail, which we can't do very well here on these message boards. That way I can ask you some specific questions and go over exactly what you want to achieve, and then make the best recommendation.
Oh, and please tell Speeder we said Hello!
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Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
Hi CarMan,
I probably owe you a bit of an apology & explanation, as just to be technically correct, it could very well be that it's the length that affects the torque, just as the length is affecting the tendency to drone or not.
What I am saying is that we didn't specifically *test* for that, and that in the discussion I had with Speeder we were talking about the effect of length on droning, if I recall correctly, rather than it being primarily about torque. However, I could be mistaken about that I suppose, as I talk to so many people.
Personally, I *do* believe that muffler length has an affect on torque.
For example, we *know* that length affects torque in other areas of the exhaust, such as the length of the collector when you have a set of full-length headers installed on any vehicle. The collector is the first part of the exhaust system, the part that directly connects to the header; a longer collector does indeed help increase low end torque, you can move the torque curve around by a noticeable amount like that.
So I do not doubt at all but what length *is* having a direct impact on torque produced in the lower rpm ranges, we just have never had an opportunity arise where that kind of formal testing for that specific could be done, we're not exhaust system manufacturers. I'm sure many exhaust system & header manufacturers have already done just that.
My apologies if I confused you here in my response!
I probably owe you a bit of an apology & explanation, as just to be technically correct, it could very well be that it's the length that affects the torque, just as the length is affecting the tendency to drone or not.
What I am saying is that we didn't specifically *test* for that, and that in the discussion I had with Speeder we were talking about the effect of length on droning, if I recall correctly, rather than it being primarily about torque. However, I could be mistaken about that I suppose, as I talk to so many people.
Personally, I *do* believe that muffler length has an affect on torque.
For example, we *know* that length affects torque in other areas of the exhaust, such as the length of the collector when you have a set of full-length headers installed on any vehicle. The collector is the first part of the exhaust system, the part that directly connects to the header; a longer collector does indeed help increase low end torque, you can move the torque curve around by a noticeable amount like that.
So I do not doubt at all but what length *is* having a direct impact on torque produced in the lower rpm ranges, we just have never had an opportunity arise where that kind of formal testing for that specific could be done, we're not exhaust system manufacturers. I'm sure many exhaust system & header manufacturers have already done just that.
My apologies if I confused you here in my response!
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 353
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From: Tucson, AZ
My new muffler
I ordered a 27" body 6" diameter magnaflow muffler from Mike last week. I installed it last night. Mike has the best price on the Magnaflow stuff by far. I looked everywhere, and he beat them by a significant amount.
I ended up cutting the factory pipe just after the y pipe junction and just after the factory muffler. I removed about 45" of crap. The factory muffler was 32" and there was the counterweight and the bends associated with it. Basically I straightened out a fair amount of the exhaust. I put in an 18" piece of 2.5" pipe between the y pipe cut and the muffler, then a 5" piece behind the new muffler. I welded the 18" pipe onto the muffler, and the 5" piece onto the exit pipe. I clamped at the y connection and at the rear of the muffler. I decided where to clamp or weld based on possible future changes. I made hangers that use the factory hanger brackets.
The complete product looks good. I was surprised at the sound when I fired it up. It sounds interesting, definately nothing like a V8 when I rev it up. It kind of sounds like an exotic sports car. Nothing like the fart sound of a gay Honda, but distinctive. I can tel that the engine is now working less to do its normal work. It seems to get up to speed a bit easier, and is faster overall. I can hear it while cruising, it's not obnoxious like a flowmaster drone though.
It's difficult to tell which mod is doing all the changing. The combination of the airbox mod with K$N filter, ported throttle body, Superchip, and magnaflow muffler seem to work very well together. Keep in mind, I'm currently at 7000 ft. til I move in December, so all the mods will have a greather effect down near sea level.
I think the next mod will be headers and a y pipe, but not for a while. The stock y pipe sucks! Since I cut within 2" of the junction of the y, I was able to feel the inside of the junction. Ford did a poor job...There is a ridge between 1/8 and 1/4" high all the way around the junction. It's a major source of restriction on the drivers side bank.
Mitch
I ended up cutting the factory pipe just after the y pipe junction and just after the factory muffler. I removed about 45" of crap. The factory muffler was 32" and there was the counterweight and the bends associated with it. Basically I straightened out a fair amount of the exhaust. I put in an 18" piece of 2.5" pipe between the y pipe cut and the muffler, then a 5" piece behind the new muffler. I welded the 18" pipe onto the muffler, and the 5" piece onto the exit pipe. I clamped at the y connection and at the rear of the muffler. I decided where to clamp or weld based on possible future changes. I made hangers that use the factory hanger brackets.
The complete product looks good. I was surprised at the sound when I fired it up. It sounds interesting, definately nothing like a V8 when I rev it up. It kind of sounds like an exotic sports car. Nothing like the fart sound of a gay Honda, but distinctive. I can tel that the engine is now working less to do its normal work. It seems to get up to speed a bit easier, and is faster overall. I can hear it while cruising, it's not obnoxious like a flowmaster drone though.
It's difficult to tell which mod is doing all the changing. The combination of the airbox mod with K$N filter, ported throttle body, Superchip, and magnaflow muffler seem to work very well together. Keep in mind, I'm currently at 7000 ft. til I move in December, so all the mods will have a greather effect down near sea level.
I think the next mod will be headers and a y pipe, but not for a while. The stock y pipe sucks! Since I cut within 2" of the junction of the y, I was able to feel the inside of the junction. Ford did a poor job...There is a ridge between 1/8 and 1/4" high all the way around the junction. It's a major source of restriction on the drivers side bank.
Mitch
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi Mitch,
Great post & it sounds like the exhaust system is considerably better now with the the removal of the factory muffler & those restrictive additional bends that you straightened out.
I'd love to get a chance to hear how it sounds on the 4.2 V-6, as it's veyr hard to get a pleasing tone, and teh Magnaflow seems to be doing a nice job there, too. It's a no-brainer on the V-8's of course, but the V-6's is another matter, and I'm glad that it's got that kind of tone, excellent!
If memory servies, what you got was the 12640, which is the 6" round unit 27" long, and I think that is the first time we've had that muffler put on a 4.2 V-6. Magnaflow doesn't make a complete cat-back system for the 4.2 V-6 F-150 (yet), so we're looking to see what is the best Magnaflow muffler to use on them. Being able to get this kind of feedback is very helpful, now if we could only get a sound bite!
With regards to what part is going the most for you, it's the Superchip, but you're absolutely right in that those three areas, powertrain programming (engine tuning), intake & exhaust all work together very nicely as a package.
Thanks for your post Mitch, & have fun!
Great post & it sounds like the exhaust system is considerably better now with the the removal of the factory muffler & those restrictive additional bends that you straightened out.
I'd love to get a chance to hear how it sounds on the 4.2 V-6, as it's veyr hard to get a pleasing tone, and teh Magnaflow seems to be doing a nice job there, too. It's a no-brainer on the V-8's of course, but the V-6's is another matter, and I'm glad that it's got that kind of tone, excellent!
If memory servies, what you got was the 12640, which is the 6" round unit 27" long, and I think that is the first time we've had that muffler put on a 4.2 V-6. Magnaflow doesn't make a complete cat-back system for the 4.2 V-6 F-150 (yet), so we're looking to see what is the best Magnaflow muffler to use on them. Being able to get this kind of feedback is very helpful, now if we could only get a sound bite!
With regards to what part is going the most for you, it's the Superchip, but you're absolutely right in that those three areas, powertrain programming (engine tuning), intake & exhaust all work together very nicely as a package.
Thanks for your post Mitch, & have fun!
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Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 353
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From: Tucson, AZ
Mike,
I don't know if I can get a straight sound bite, but my digital camera does 15 second videos with sound, and then there's the girlfriends camcorder, so I'll see what I can come up with. I'll try messing with it this afternoon.
Mitch
I don't know if I can get a straight sound bite, but my digital camera does 15 second videos with sound, and then there's the girlfriends camcorder, so I'll see what I can come up with. I'll try messing with it this afternoon.
Mitch
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 79
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From: Los Angeles County
Originally posted by Superchips_Distributor
For example, we *know* that length affects torque in other areas of the exhaust, such as the length of the collector when you have a set of full-length headers installed on any vehicle. The collector is the first part of the exhaust system, the part that directly connects to the header; a longer collector does indeed help increase low end torque, you can move the torque curve around by a noticeable amount like that.
So I do not doubt at all but what length *is* having a direct impact on torque produced in the lower rpm ranges, we just have never had an opportunity arise where that kind of formal testing for that specific could be done, we're not exhaust system manufacturers. I'm sure many exhaust system & header manufacturers have already done just that.
My apologies if I confused you here in my response! [/B]
For example, we *know* that length affects torque in other areas of the exhaust, such as the length of the collector when you have a set of full-length headers installed on any vehicle. The collector is the first part of the exhaust system, the part that directly connects to the header; a longer collector does indeed help increase low end torque, you can move the torque curve around by a noticeable amount like that.
So I do not doubt at all but what length *is* having a direct impact on torque produced in the lower rpm ranges, we just have never had an opportunity arise where that kind of formal testing for that specific could be done, we're not exhaust system manufacturers. I'm sure many exhaust system & header manufacturers have already done just that.
My apologies if I confused you here in my response! [/B]
I don't quite get what you meen by moving the collector around. Is this just a function that can be manipulated with full length headers? Anyways I've been over at the mustang forum quite a bit lately as they seem to know their stuff when it comes to exhaust. Basically some evident truths that i've obtained are that flows work best with an H-pipe and magnapacks work best with an X-pipe. I'm pretty set on dual exhaust, (unless there's something I should know about the application of this to a truck?)
Also I've only heard good things about magnaflows and it seems that you are also for them, especially in reference to a truck. So would this be the best setup for a 5.4L?:
2.25" X-pipe collector running into 2.25" pipes and 4x14" (or 18"?) magnapacks.
Or is this more of a sports car setup? Would an H-pipe with flows work better on a truck?
Does magnaflow make this setup or do i have to get it custom?
I'd call you since this is a very lengthy post but i am not quite near the crunch time of buying as of right now. Again Thank you very much for you're time we all appreciate it!!!!!!!
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 353
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From: Tucson, AZ
Got the Soundbite
I think I firured out the sound bite thing. The attachment has 2 separate sections. The first 20 seconds is with the mic on the ground under the tailpire. The second section is about 20 feet away. It's definately an interesting sound, let me know what you think.
Click this link to download the soundbite:
http://bigwoodfabrication.20m.com/My_Bronco/truck3.wav
Mitch
Click this link to download the soundbite:
http://bigwoodfabrication.20m.com/My_Bronco/truck3.wav
Mitch
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi Carman,
First, don't worry about calling us before you're actually ready to buy, that's really the *best* time to call us, so you can get some good advice and go over exactly what you want to do in detail, in *advance*. You won't be pressured in any way to make a purchase or a decision, we just need to go over some things with you to help you plain out for your best results. So don't worry about callng us even though you're not ready to order yet, you still want to do your research, & we're happy to go over that with you.
The reality is, these message boards just do not lend themselves to involved discussions of that nature, and because of the carefully crafted vendor policies here on F-150 Online, those things really should be handled privately between us anyway. We can cover more in a 10 minute phone call than we could in 30 posts back and forth here.
So just give us a call when you get a few minutes to spare, & we can go over all of this with you.
First, don't worry about calling us before you're actually ready to buy, that's really the *best* time to call us, so you can get some good advice and go over exactly what you want to do in detail, in *advance*. You won't be pressured in any way to make a purchase or a decision, we just need to go over some things with you to help you plain out for your best results. So don't worry about callng us even though you're not ready to order yet, you still want to do your research, & we're happy to go over that with you.
The reality is, these message boards just do not lend themselves to involved discussions of that nature, and because of the carefully crafted vendor policies here on F-150 Online, those things really should be handled privately between us anyway. We can cover more in a 10 minute phone call than we could in 30 posts back and forth here.
So just give us a call when you get a few minutes to spare, & we can go over all of this with you.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi Mitch,
Wow, you were right about it having an exotic sports-car kind of sound, what an excellent result!
That's a very nice sound for that 4.2 V-6 F-150. I actually like that more than a deep throbbing V-8 kind of tone. What you have there sounds distinctive & sohpisticated, that's a much better result that what most V-6's with open exhausts sound like.
Thanks for posting that sound bite, the guys in the V-6 engine section and in the exhaust section will enjoy that as well.
I can only imagine what it sounds like in real life, sound bites never do full justice to a great tone.
Nice job Mitch, thanks!
Wow, you were right about it having an exotic sports-car kind of sound, what an excellent result!
That's a very nice sound for that 4.2 V-6 F-150. I actually like that more than a deep throbbing V-8 kind of tone. What you have there sounds distinctive & sohpisticated, that's a much better result that what most V-6's with open exhausts sound like.
Thanks for posting that sound bite, the guys in the V-6 engine section and in the exhaust section will enjoy that as well.
I can only imagine what it sounds like in real life, sound bites never do full justice to a great tone.
Nice job Mitch, thanks!