Ok so I don't know if this is the best place to put this or not, but it does have to do with tuning(sort of), if a moderator feels it belongs someplace else by all means, do it.

Ok, there is much confusion on this topic for many people. so after doing much research I really didn't get any answers, here are some questions.

i realize that E85 requires more fuel, so with the proper tune will any vehicle run on E85?

i read many stories of people doing it without any problem on untuned cars(that aren't flex fuel) with and without problems, and many stories of people running on non-flex fuel cars and trucks tuned for E85 with and without problems.

so other than the computer and tuning strategies what's the difference between E85 and normal vehicles. i have heard stories of E85 destroying fuel injectors, people getting clogged fuelfilters, and rusted gas tanks.

Please enlighten me and anybody else with similar questions. Thank you.

 

One of the biggest things you have to worry about is orings. The orings in a regular engine will not hold up to the alcohol in the E85 and will start to disinegrate. Fuel leak in engine compartment equals big fire! Do not run E85 in a non flex vehicle!

 

SWRi just wrapped up a research project for the State of Kalifornia concerning ethanol as a fuel and it's carbon foot print. Kalifornia is setting itself up with a data base so it can tell the Obamas to stick it where the sun don't shine. Because of the lack of heat, there are much fewer BTUs or available energy per gallon as we all know. It also cannot be piped which means it has to be trucked to the different terminals for distribution as the seals in pipelines will not handle the alcohol/solvent/corrosive effects of it. The carbon foot print is huge and much, much, larger than that of gasoline. It also brings more water to the fuel and in winter environments can sludge an engine. Any engine can be tuned to run on ethanol but it is not going to run as good and will not get decent fuel mileages. Then there is the point of a lot of water going thru the exhaust system. You'd better have a 100% stainless system or expect to be replacing it often. You can also have issues with the Cats as they don't develop enough heat to work correctly. You can have issues with them and with o2 sensors as the sensors will be running in heat cycle often and life will be shortened. If you can avoid using it, it is in your best interest to find normal gasoline with the mandated 7% ethanol or 10% max. As far as injectors, etc, anything with any rubber/vinyl/silicone based seal is in jeopardy.

 

This is really a non issue in any vehicle built within the last 15 or so years, since they all use components that are resistant to ethanol.


Out of respect for Labnerd, and in view of his obvious disproval of E-85 in general, I will not respond directly to his post.

Some vehicles' fuel systems are flexible enough to allow for the extra fuel needed to run E-85. Some aren't. So it is not a "one size fit all" question. You are aware of the need for extra fuel, and some factory tunes will supply it. Some stock vehicles will do it if you modify the programming, and some vehicles don't have the ability to add 20% more fuel without changing out some hardware.

I'll bet you've never heard of anyone telling you first hand that they broke their truck with E-85. All you hear is people telling your 2nd hand facts. Well I'm here to tell you that I ran E-85 in my 1997 F150 for years. Over 150,000 miles, and it didn't hurt it. And I run it every day (E-43) in my 2003 V10 F350 on stock tune with no problems and no CEL.


I want to make one point about ethanol. YOU CAN DRINK ETHANOL! Talk about how corrosive it is? Go drink some gasoline! That's just the oil companies complaining! You think they want to make it easy to quit using their product? Go pour 5 gallons of gasoline in your pond, or on your yard, or on your cat, and tell me how bad that is for the environment. Now compare it to ethanol... It is not as poisonous or volatile. Unlike a fossil fuel, it is renewable, and it helps our economy. It ships no money overseas, and it doesn't support IRAQ, it supports all the businesses that go into the production and shipment of the parent plant. (corn, switchgrass, sugar cane) The plant is a solar collector and uses carbon dioxide, but ethanol production itself is not entirely carbon neutral, (unless all the equipment used in the production of ethanol runs on ethanol! )

 

chester i remember you posting about this in a different thread, that's kinda where these questions are coming from, but i'm not looking at E43 since it would only boost octane a 1-2 points. want to use E85 since it has a 96-97octane rating so the timing can be jacked up for racing(even though it's N/A for now) but when i go Boosted it will be even better.

my goal is to get a non-smog-legal E85 race tune. may have to go with race fuel if i have to, but i know it's way more expensive. Thanks anymore info is appreciated.

 

Chester,
Ethanol like any alcohol is a solvent. It will dry out rubber and vinyl based seals. That is a simple fact. Alcohol strips the plasticizers (pthalates, etc.) out of the seals and makes them brittle.
How many of those seals are actually in our trucks? Very few. I suspect the only o-rings you might have to worry about are the fuel injector o-rings. That does not make what Labnerd said any less true.

There are a lot of corrosive things you can drink. How about vinegar? It is Acetic Acid. Phosphoric Acid in Cola is corrosive as well. Baking Soda is an alkali which is also corrosive.

SWRI (Southwest Research Institute) is a non-biased research lab that tests many things. Whether Labnerd personally likes Ethanol or not has no bearing on the lab results. It would be just as unfair for us to jump to the conclusion that because you are a farmer that you might be biased.

 

I thought E-85 was more like 104 octane.

Jimmy, you can definitely boost performance with it, but the system has to be capable of providing enough fuel to prevent it from running lean, and enough spark advance to take advantage of the high octane. Gas mileage will be horrible.

To really take advantage of it, you would want to raise the compression ratio up to about 11.5:1, but if you do that, you will not be able to run normal gasoline any more without either severe spark knock or grossly retarded timing.

 

that's what i had thought also, but according to Wikipedia it's only 96-97 octane, i also know about the drop in mpgs, i want to use it for racing, since it's more readily available and cheaper the high octane racing fuel. i know that basic flexfuel cars and trucks have close to 20 more HP then with 87octane, so i figure with a custom tune i should see est. 25-30hp over the stock tune.

 

Thas' yer problem, right thar! I would not trust Wiki to explain how to light a match ...

It's upwards of 104+ octane.

Do the re-

 

"E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasloine IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests."" got that from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85 the non-wiki source http://www.ethanolrfa.org/resource/t...pdatedLogo.pdf page 31 under octane.

 

*Sigh* - see previous post.

Wiki is a repository for BS. It's a TOILET.

Wiki is

I'll go with the preponderance of the evidence that refutes the Wiki.

Let's just agree to disagree, shall, we?

 

This is a great article from a NON Wiki link:

It is from the Renewable Fuels Association.

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/resource/t...pdatedLogo.pdf

It also talks about different seal issues and corrosion. It is factual information from the people that want you to buy Ethanol and other renewable fuels.

Thanks Jimmy.

 

Yeah. saw that too.

Thing is:
"This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline". Isn't that how it's actually used ??? You are not running pure ethanol - it is a blend.

Someone better tell the tuning folks - I think they are using the 105 value.

Norm - remember Tschaid? He was doing his own custom E85 tuning - and using that value...effectively allegedly.

Hey Chester, WTF are you ??? lol


I'm most likely wrong - no problemo with that (that would be ... twice now ;-)) But - Wiki is still crap.

Hot Rod Magazine - it's gotta be true, right?

"Since hot rodders are all about looking for a performance edge, not to mention doing it on the cheap, it didn't take them long to notice something interesting: E85 ethanol actually retails for less than regular gasoline-from 20 to 40 cents per gallon cheaper in most areas. But its pump octane rating is 105, considerably higher than premium pump gas (93 to 94 octane) and comparable to racing fuels. Since 100-octane racing gas may sell for five to six bucks per gallon, and 105-octane can knock you back as much as 10 to 12 dollars per gallon, at less than three bucks per gallon E85 starts to look very attractive. Also, E85 is perfectly legal for road use, and depending on where you live, it is available straight off the fueling island at your local gas station. So ethanol appears to be a sweet deal if you are in need of a high-octane street fuel. But wouldn't you know it, there is more to the story. There usually is.

The first thing we need to know is that E85, the most common of the ethanol fuel blends, is actually three fuel grades. Class 1 or "pure" E85 contains 80 to 84 percent ethanol, while the remainder of the blend is commercial-grade (around 85 pump octane) gasoline. Class 2 or E75 is 75 to 79 percent ethanol, while Class 3 or E70 is 70 to 74 percent ethanol. However, all three classes of fuel may be marketed as E85 at various times during the year. While it seems confusing, this is done mainly to offer better cold-starting performance-which is a problem with ethanol fuels. Since straight ethanol has a relatively low Reid vapor pressure (meaning it doesn't like to light off at low temperatures), greater percentages of gasoline are added to the blend for colder weather. So while E85 is often described as 105 pump octane, its actual rating can vary depending upon the seasonal blend. Naturally, higher gasoline content will tend to lower the pump octane from 105 for "pure" E85 to perhaps 100 for E75-though these figures are approximations, it is important to note. Since ethanol is relatively new on the consumer scene, it is just not as thoroughly documented or standardized as gasoline. This is why, in part, you may see E85 described as anywhere from 100 to 106 octane.

Next, just as with conventional gasoline, with E85 and other ethanol blends there are multiple ways to measure octane. When we speak of the pump or road octane of a fuel generally we mean the (R+M)/2 method, where two separately derived ratings, research octane (RON) and motor octane (MON), are added together and their sum divided by 2. For example, if the motor octane of a gasoline is 90 and its research octane is 98, its (R+M)/2 or pump octane is 94. This averaged value, also known as antiknock index or AKI, is the number shown on gas pumps here in North America.

The research octane of ethanol is impressively high, which is a beautiful thing for high-compression and high-boost applications. However, its motor octane (the more extreme standard) is relatively low when compared to racing gasolines of similar (R+M)/2 octane. What this means is that E85 is highly resistant to knock but somewhat sensitive to preignition, comparatively speaking. (Knock and preignition are two different conditions: Knock is spontaneous combustion in the end gases before the flame-front can arrive, while preignition takes place before the timed ignition spark occurs, typically due to localized incandescence or hot spots in the combustion chamber.) But it's no huge deal: Simply know that when running E85 and other ethanol blends, you need to step down one to two heat ranges cooler on the spark plugs, and watch for other potential hot spots such as sharp edges on the piston domes and chambers.

Of course, the biggest tuning change when switching from gasoline to E85 is in fuel delivery. Yes, you will need more, just as you have heard-considerably more, in the range of 25 percent. Josh Ksiazkiewicz is a GM Powertrain engineer and one of GM Performance Division's resident E85 gurus. A recent graduate of Kettering University, he is currently writing a rather thick master's thesis on ethanol fuels. And just to let you know where he is coming from: The 730hp, 496ci Rat motor in his personal hot rod, a '69 Chevy half-ton pickup, runs on E85 with a Demon carburetor. He says, "If you compare gasoline and E85, they have roughly a 20 to 25 percent differential in energy density by mass. We can't change that. What we can do is compensate for it by delivering more fuel mass to make up the difference."

And that points directly to one of the clear tradeoffs with E85: When you pump in roughly 25 percent more fuel, you take an approximate 25 percent hit in fuel economy as well, though it can be offset somewhat with careful tuning. And while drivers can switch back and forth from gasoline to E85 at will with the flex-fuel vehicles currently offered by the automakers, that is some fairly advanced technology beyond the reach of most backyard tuners. Once you've recalibrated your fuel system for ethanol, you're committed to ethanol until you change the calibration back again'."

And here's the kicker:

[/I]To simplify the test, a BigStuff3 engine-control unit with both pump gas and E85 calibrations handy was plugged into the EFI harness. On 100-octane gasoline, the combination made 509 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm and 540 hp at 6,000 rpm. (W2W tests its pump-gas engines on 100-octane for safety's sake, then performs its final validations with 93-octane pump fuel.) With no other changes except in the software calibrations, on E85 the engine made 524 lb-ft of torque and 546 hp. So the numbers were very similar for both fuels, with E85 squeaking out a slight edge. The real difference here, of course, is that one fuel is an expensive racing blend while the other sells for less than regular. And Urban felt that with some optimizing of the spark curve to exploit E85's greater octane, further gains were well within reach.

Just for fun, Urban then bolted up his standard turbocharger combination, a Garrett GT42 blower and Precision Turbo air/water intercooler, to the well-worn test mule. Still running 10.2:1 compression and E85, at 13 psi of boost the engine made an easy 833 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm and 850 hp at 5,900 rpm. You will note there are no comparable test results for pump gas with this combination. "There's no sense even trying it with this boost and compression," Urban says. "You just can't do this with pump gas." With its knock-stifling 105 road octane, E85 is a pump fuel that performs like race fuel. "I love this stuff," Urban says. "It's high-octane fuel for everyone, 105 you can buy on the road."[/I]

So - E85 produced better numbers than 100-octane gas. It did it due to a higher effective octane value & burning a lot more fuel,, not energy content.

 

I ran it in my 90 mustang LX with a stock fuel system...I never had any issues with it. I was running around with stock iron heads and making 16psi with a Vortech on it, there is no way possible I would have been able to get by with that using pump gas. I did change filters 2 times in the first month I used it, mainly just as a precaution. After that I checked the filter from time to time and everything seemed pretty good. It pretty much cleaned out the crap that had been in there the first 18 years of its life.

If you're going to use it as a alternative to race gas, I say use it (just make sure you have enough fuel system to handle the task). It works very well. Your gas mileage might not be quite as good but it shouldn't be terrible. A GOOD tuner should be able to get you where you only lose about 1 - 2 mpg. Around here that is very tolerable since E-85 is usually about $.75 cheaper than gas. E85 will tolerate a much leaner mixture while idling and cruising as well.

I now have it in my 89 GT and couldn't be happier. I usually just check the blend every other tank and make sure it is somewhat similar to the previous tankful. It made the 160lb injectors much easier to work with while idling and cruising

I've seen it run in many cars at my friend's shop here locally in everything from Excursions to EVO's and older Civics.

If you want to talk to a descent tuner about it that is somewhat close to you, give Bob Kurgan a call at Kurgan Motorsports.

The only other advice I could add is (I don't know how picky you are about your tune) you would probably want to stay away from any sort of canned tune with this stuff due to the inconsistant blends from state to state.

 

This is the main reason for the mpg losses. You can't build an engine that optomizes alcohol without hurting its gasoline performance. So they compromise, and it doesn't do either fuel very well. But ffv's will do either/or.

So they say. I haven't had any trouble with it. We use regular old rubber fuel hoses to pump it into the truck. Maybe it is bad for it, but I haven't had any trouble with it.
Since almost all gasoline has some quantity of ethanol in it, I venture to say that these vehicles (and our fuel hoses) are built to be resistant to it.