Bill...

I don't want to get into a pissing match with you -- I have no skin in the game as I don't sell tunes or tuning hardware. I'll fully admit when I'm wrong, but at this point there are still a few questions I have, in part based on your post.

What happens if a customer tells you he wants to show up at your shop/house for a custom supercharger dyno tune?

How many of all the tables, at once, can it change? In calibrator mode of SCT's software there are literally thousands of changes that can be made and loaded into the PCM. How much memory does the Edge have to hold calibration changes, per tune? What happens if the entire set of maps, functions, scalers, etc.) were changed? Could the Edge hardware hold 3 tunes which changed everything?

In part, I get my information from those in the industry, looking closely at what is being done by tuning hardware, asking many questions, a lot of reading of Ford engineering data, researching calibration changes, and lots of other research, etc. Been around a long time...

For the Edge hardware, all I have to do is look at the number of parameters changed once its loaded into the PCM. Very easy stuff. I didn't see a lot of changes made... actually better wording would be that there were a lot of changes made in some places, but some things which I would consider to be very important changes weren't done. I don't know why... maybe Edge compromises because the tunes are canned, or because the hardware is limited?

 

I ran stock with 35's on a 3.55 gear ratio with my 5.4 for a couple months and it ran sluggish like you were saying and my gas tank seemed to empty pretty quick I was getting around 10-11 mpg's then I went with the gryphon with three custom tunes and a cai and after market axhaust and let me tell you know its got some get up and go, it actually feels like I can pass some people now.. the whole truck drives so much better then it ever has and my mpg's are now around 14-15 and its nice to be able to monitor all your temps, mpgs, rpms and on and on with the gryphon. Would definitely recommend it for what your looking for since it sounds like you are in the same boat I was in.

 

I don't know much about all the technical stuff involved with programmers and I am glad I don't have to worry with setting or adjusting thousands of parameters myself. All I know is the end result is that Gryphon tunes worked great for me and the truck is so much more fun to drive.

 

No worries. Not into pissing matches as they're a waste of time.

We have three local performance shops that we are able to rent dyno time from. If someone was to schedule an appointment for custom tuning, we can certainly accommodate their needs regardless of the modifications.

Without getting into hardware specifics, the Evolution/Gryphon has more than enough memory to handle all the changes necessary to accommodate a modification to every scalar, function and table that is in the PCM for at least 4 calibrations.

Also, our tuning software has mapped every function in the calibration so I am completely capable of making every change that SCT's Advantage software does. The reason I know this is because we are also SCT dealers and I use both software and hardware platforms. I just happen to have much more control over the Gryphon platform so I tend to use quite a bit more.

There absolutely has to be a compromise on the complexity of the tunes because they are canned. It is impossible to predict what a customer is going to do with a vehicle when he/she puts a programmer on it so there has to be a degree of safety built in and canned tunes will always be a bit more conservative than custom tuning. Don't take this as a lack of capability or functionality. (As Joe Pesci said in Lethal Weapon, "Don't let the earring fool ya', pal!") Looks can be deceiving and the Gryphon hardware has a great deal of capability, even if all of it isn't utilized.

Aside from the OP's question which was a bit general, the responding posts addressed custom tuning and the capability of the Gryphon to meet the customer's custom tuning needs. Your comments regarding the capabilities of the Gryphon (and the Edge hardware platform to a large degree) were inaccurate, although they were represented as fact.

Being that nobody has ever called me to discuss the capabilities of the hardware or any possible limitations of the Gryphon, I can only surmise that you made some basic assumptions about the hardware/firmware which is fine; Just indicate that they are assumption and don't represent them as facts. If there is anything you're unclear on, I am always more than happy to answer questions about our products and take a great deal of pride in what we sell, especially since I helped design it.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Take care.

 

Okay... Just want a friendly discussion.

Understood. Just that I didn't know you did custom supercharger tuning until now as I don't see much mention of PHP when it comes to superchargers on any forums. They tend to stick to JDM, Troyer, VMP and JL (when the Lightnings were all the rage).

Thank you for clearing that up! What level access do you have in the pull down menu on Advantage?

Its not just that... its that I see things I believe are "not right" in my opinion for stock F150 tuning.

In all fairness you have an issue with me drawing conclusions based on observed behavior of the device, but not with others stating their opinions as fact when it's in your favor.

When others in this forum state PHP is the "best" as fact, yet don't state its opinion, nor back it up with dyno evidence or their own driving comparisons with competitors tunes... I don't see you (or any other tuner for that matter when its in their favor) complaining that they are stating their opinions as fact.

Well, I've watched how tunes are loaded into Edge hardware, and in part, based my conclusions on that. And there are some things I believe the Edge hardware, based on its model of uploading the changed data parameters rather than the entire PCM image, cannot address. For instance, sometimes the underlying calibration executable is not the best selection for a particular application and its often desirable to use a different calibration as a starting point, write changes to that, and then upload the image into the PCM (over writing the tables as well as the executable code). There are box codes out there, when the values in tables, scalars, etc. are compared appear identical, but in operation are not. Can the Edge hardware change out the entire calibration to cover instances like this (it can be very useful for some supercharger applications)?

This is interesting stuff. I need to put my y-cable on an Edge box to see what it's sending to the PCM --- I'm been consider writing some code on a microcontroller to download quick timing and fueling changes into the PCM. Bully Dog takes it to another level, allowing changes on the fly while the vehicle is running --- I have a feeling I know how they do it, but the interesting part is that they actually change the executable to support their try before you buy feature (utterly cool stuff, too bad their tunes, imho, aren't as good as the rest of the features and it doesn't support custom tuning either at this point).

I do this as a hobby, not in the business of tuning, and like spending time figuring out what's going on with the devices and their tunes. The Predator, at one point, had some real hardware advantages such as Linux-style underlying OS but they never seemed to take advantage of that. Too bad they didn't -- could have been some really cool open source applications written by users which would have boosted the market.

 

Ken,

To be fair, you're not comparing the same thing.

In regards to all those "who is the best tuner" discussions that always seem to persist in the forums, it's common sense that everyone pretty much accepts the responses as OPINION, not qualified fact. However, when you are discussing the technical aspect of a product or service, then you are no longer offering opinion.

For example...

Opinions:

JVC makes the best flat screen TVs every! I love mine. The picture is bright and I can view from any angle with no loss in picture quality.

Facts:

The JVC LT-46P300 has a 20,000:1 contrast ratio, 500cd/m2 luminosity and a 178º viewing angle. (Yeah... I Googled it.)

Big difference.

When you post things like...

...you are stating what is perceived as technical information as fact, not opinion.

First, yes the hardware can support full reflashing. We don't because 99.998% of the time there isn't any need to change the RTOS or the Strategy of the PCM and we'd much rather be able to change levels in 15 seconds. In fact, the only incidence I've found where crossing to another strategy has been useful is on the diesels. But this isn't a diesel forum so I don't see how that's pertinent.

I'd gladly put my tunes up against anyone else's tunes. After more than 12 years of tuning strictly Fords and 25 years in the automotive performance business, I've been around a while, too.

While we're at it... I've tuned a number of supercharged applications for Panoz and Steeda, developed many of the calibrations for Paxton and Vortech for Mustangs, F-150s and other Ford platforms, and worked with the Ford Focus SVT group on a few projects. I did the first Gen. 2 SVT Lightning tunes for Johnny Lightning along with many of the Lightning owners in the Charlotte area. I've worked with Jim DiAmore from JDM on his Lightning, and yes... I even used to do custom files for Mike Troyer back when he was a Superchips dealer. The list goes on.

The reason I generally do not provide custom tuning on forced induction gas applications is because they are often time consuming and people seem to frequently have a problem paying for good tunes. They'll spend $5000.00 on wheels and tires, $6000.00 for an intercooled twin-turbo setup, $4000.00 for a stereo and DVD player, and then try to nickel and dime the guy that does the tuning because it's not something they can put their hands on or get their head around. Don't get me wrong, I love forced induction applications... but sometimes it's just a big hassle.

My wife and I have worked hard to build a business that has a strong reputation in the F-150 community and while we've had a few bumps along the way I think we've done a pretty good job. We don't bash anyone and in fact often send people to Justin and Mike because honestly, they're really good guys. I think we get along pretty well with everyone.

I'm not sure what I did to get on your bad side, but it appears (to me) that you have some reason for trying to discredit us or our products. If you have a problem with me, then let's hear it and get it figured out. If not, then maybe I'm misunderstanding something and would appreciate if you'd let me know. I'm certainly big enough to admit if I'm wrong.

Take care.

 

In my opinion DM is partially correct with his initial comment about some tunes being semi-custom. All the rest of the conversation above is the babble of apples and oranges.....

The best custom tuning is done on a dyno by a tuning professional. The next best routine would be a base tune combined with datalogging by the end user with the data being sent to a tuning pro for adjustments....and the last choice would be a tune based on a tuning pro's depth of experience. The last choice is the most common.

I am not questioning anyone's expertise here.



To my question.....

 

We're going to just have to disagree and move on from this point.

Its good to know it supports full calibrating. But, on the F150 cross flashing can be useful, same with the 1997-2003.

I never questioned your abilities or questioned your resume. I already know it. Rather, I stated the reality of who people are going to these days for supercharged tunes. You aren't known these days for it and maybe that will change, but that's up to you.

Been there, done that. When I stopped putting up with it people stopped expecting it, and soon 99% of the people show up with fat wallets. The other 1% walk away when they realize this isn't Walmart. The people looking for miracles and bargains... end up getting what they pay for and nothing more. This comes from experience in more than one industry and applies when dealing with 6-7 figure numbers as it does with 3-4 figure numbers.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=465959860

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=466172981

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=466173540

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=466173867

You're not on my bad side. When I see what I believe to be wrong information I'll comment -- and when I am proven wrong I admit it. Likewise when I believe I can be helpful, I'll comment. I was wrong about the Edge hardware capabilities and admit it.

I've posted about Edge, SCT, Superchips, Diablo, HP Tuners, Jet, Hypertech, Bully Dog, etc. for years (on many sites). I've said many great things about the Edge hardware platform in the past, and will continue to do so, especially now that I know more about it. The more I know about the pluses and minuses the better. But I can only base what I post the evidence/data available to me, and that's what I did. Take it personally if you wish, but data isn't personal.

It was merely a discussion about product data/information --- nothing personal and no problems with you. Perhaps you're seeing attacks but I'm not making any.

 

ken , what's your opinion on tuning by jody at dp tuner ,i know it's diesel ,but...

 

I had no complaints with the tunes he loaded when I had them. Frankly, I've didn't look at the cal changes he made ... didn't interest me because diesel tuning doesn't hold the excitement that gas tuning does for me. It did have great cold weather startup and idle. Also had a great experience as well with Bill's FICM programming - and someone I know is happy with his F150 tuning.

I don't run either these days. My diesel runs my own tunes and I switched FICM calibration to the buzz cal because I started having cold weather issues without it. Switching out tunes is a comment on my motivation/fun, not on their abilities. I got out of the game for a while for many reasons, but have spent a lot of the past couple of years really getting back in for my personal vehicles, because its now "fun" again.

I doubt you were just curious though.... there was a long standing feud between them and I don't/won't take sides though some have tried. I've met both personally, and both were friendly, nice guys, and both have good reputations in their fields.

 

Ken,

I think on most stuff we are in agreement. You know very well that I have a good deal of respect for you and we have discussed that at length. We have also discussed the reasons for why Corey and I don't get along with DP-Tuner.

For what it's worth, yes... Corey and I have our differences with DP-Tuner but what we post on our MySpace is strictly our personal reflection on how we have been treated by DP-Tuner following our brief cooperation and subsequent separation and honestly has no reason to be posted on a public forum such as this. I think your posting the blog links is in poor taste and actually dredges up issues that have long since been forgotten about.

The fact is that Corey and I often try very hard to post positive comments about DP-Tuner when it comes to the forums and offer positive advice whenever possible. I've had customers call me with concerns about their tuning and I advise them to please get in touch with Jody and give him the opportunity to make things correct. It's the same thing I would do for ANY tuner or company.

I continue to hope we can get past this and move forward.

Take care.

 

As I said earlier, I'm trying to learn and inform (except when that might share information I promised not to share), admit when I am wrong and its not personal. Never was. I honestly don't see how this thread got to this point. Didn't think anything said was a big deal. Heck, I've recommended PHP more than once, I think we both know that.

This thread outcome, well, I've learned a lot more about the Edge hardware. It appears it has a lot more memory than I thought it did. I've watched two different people demonstrate that it's address block based, but didn't know it had the capacity to do every single block. It would be very interesting for me to see what its doing and mimic it with a micro-controller, but for a hobbyist... too much damn work especially since I have a DashDAQ and might be able to accomplish something there since its open source.

Likewise. Not once have I questioned your ability. You did surprise me though... I didn't have any idea that you did supercharger applications currently or what's available out there in boonieville (I drove within a couple miles the other day, but had an appointment to make). That changes some things when it comes to the Gryphon, if you make it known more.

Correct. That's why I stated in the post above that I won't comment about what either side has said its position is, or pit one's tuning against the other. I have many friends in the tuning industry these days, and let them comment about each other while I smile and don't "cross share". People need to blow off steam. Some are former competitors, and funny thing is one of my biggest competitors I've become good friends with.

Weren't those blog posts... in hindsight, poor taste? Ultimately someone who makes public statements about their competitors... they end up paying for the comments, not their competitor. Been there, watching yuk yuks attack while I kept building 3 businesses. Laughed all the way to the bank, and hope you do to. Have also been on the other side, and learned to not comment on competitors in public. Have fun with it Bill - let the other teams show there *****!

That's the thing Bill, I don't think there is anything to get past. I brought up what I thought were valid technical points, was proven wrong, admitted it, and had some minor debate. Its not like I said "Bill's tuning sucks! Stay away!" Hell, as I mentioned, I've run your stuff in my own truck!

As an aside, I finally got nailed for speeding in the truck! Tell you about that next time I see you.

 

Speeding? You? Naaaah! It was obviously a case of profiling, and profiling is WROOOONG!.

As for the posts? They are what they are. We've been criticized for them and congratulated for them. I don't really care one way or the other... it was just a way us to vent frustrations. As I said, on the forums we have been extremely civil and positive towards DP and everyone else.

Anyway, if you have any questions on how the hardware platform works then I'd be happy to offer what I know, so long as it doesn't violate any confidential I/P agreements that I have with Edge.

Oh, and to the O/P - I'm really sorry about the hijacked thread here and I'm sure Ken is as well. Our conversation should probably have continued somewhere else, although I'm sure it made for entertaining reading. We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread.

Catch y'all later.

 

Just ordered Blinder's LIDAR jammer and signed up for Trapster. Going to try to avoid a repeat!

 

ROFL!!! Putting the cart before the horse on that one, eh?



That's something NOBODY likes to see.