What programmer should i get?
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,805
Likes: 2
From: NEVADA
Bill-
That's not really it.... no two trucks are the same.
Troyer has each new customer fill out work sheets to provide information about the vehicle and then provides "basline" and safe tunes. After dataloging or dyno pulls, the info goes back to Troyer for refining., at no charge within 60 days of purchase.... then you will have the best tunes.
I have not heard of Edge doing this type of retuning, and just programming to the vin and computer code qualifies as canned tunes. LOL
That's not really it.... no two trucks are the same.
Troyer has each new customer fill out work sheets to provide information about the vehicle and then provides "basline" and safe tunes. After dataloging or dyno pulls, the info goes back to Troyer for refining., at no charge within 60 days of purchase.... then you will have the best tunes.
I have not heard of Edge doing this type of retuning, and just programming to the vin and computer code qualifies as canned tunes. LOL
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
From: denver
Having done thousands of dyno runs at chrysler developing new cars, maybe I see this as an easier process then some do. If your truck is on a dyno, and it's reading somewhat lean (the dyno operator can interpret the results for you if you can not)...you simply turn up the fuel. The SCT is capable of this I am sure. However, so is the edge and I would imagine several other tuners. I'm not advocating the edge, nor am I discounting the troyer, however (unless one of my assumptions is incorrect) troyers is no more custom than edge in that both use a canned tune that you can refine using parameters within it. Maybe I'm just really confused about what MT is offering....but tell me...if a dyno tells me I'm slightly lean at WOT, and I turn my fuel up in the edge...while you send yours to troyer who does the same...how exactly does that make his custom and the edge canned? Because he's doing it for you? I guess I just don't see where the 'custom' line is drawn. Not trying to start any drama, just trying to see where the few of you are coming from...or where my reasoning is going south.
Bill
Bill
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
Bill, I have asked multiple times 1) why custom tune a stock truck 2) why buy from troyer and 3) Why should I wait for TPs month long process when I can get another vendors in less than 10 days?
I have never gotten an answer directly. Troyer himself has taken indirect shots at what I say the timeline is, claiming 14 days (of course those are business days turning 14 days into 19 days) when I had read upwards of 38 days when I was considering. ALl I ever got was drama and
drooling icons. I just keep my diablosport tunes and usually stay out of this forum, except to try and help some people save money.
I have never gotten an answer directly. Troyer himself has taken indirect shots at what I say the timeline is, claiming 14 days (of course those are business days turning 14 days into 19 days) when I had read upwards of 38 days when I was considering. ALl I ever got was drama and
drooling icons. I just keep my diablosport tunes and usually stay out of this forum, except to try and help some people save money.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,409
Likes: 1
From: Sunny FL
I suppose it boils down to weather or not you believe TP. After reading literally several hundred posts on this forum and in the Lightning forum, all positive, I believe he does the best job, that’s why I chose to have him do my tunes. If you like, you can take your truck to him and he’ll do the data logging and tune it right there on the spot, spot on. Customer support is also outstanding
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
(Snip)
if you want the *best* results, that is had with our Troyer Performance custom tuning. We go much further in depth in the PCM's programming, into areas not touched by chipmakers - we've specialized in performance tuning the F-150 longer than anyone else, and we get the best possible **safe & sustainable** results because of our many years of working on this platform (and to a certain extent, the tools we have at our disposal to do the job with).
if you want the *best* results, that is had with our Troyer Performance custom tuning. We go much further in depth in the PCM's programming, into areas not touched by chipmakers - we've specialized in performance tuning the F-150 longer than anyone else, and we get the best possible **safe & sustainable** results because of our many years of working on this platform (and to a certain extent, the tools we have at our disposal to do the job with).
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,278
Likes: 0
From: Seabrook,NH
Originally Posted by billindenver
Having done thousands of dyno runs at chrysler developing new cars, maybe I see this as an easier process then some do. If your truck is on a dyno, and it's reading somewhat lean (the dyno operator can interpret the results for you if you can not)...you simply turn up the fuel. The SCT is capable of this I am sure. However, so is the edge and I would imagine several other tuners. I'm not advocating the edge, nor am I discounting the troyer, however (unless one of my assumptions is incorrect) troyers is no more custom than edge in that both use a canned tune that you can refine using parameters within it. Maybe I'm just really confused about what MT is offering....but tell me...if a dyno tells me I'm slightly lean at WOT, and I turn my fuel up in the edge...while you send yours to troyer who does the same...how exactly does that make his custom and the edge canned? Because he's doing it for you? I guess I just don't see where the 'custom' line is drawn. Not trying to start any drama, just trying to see where the few of you are coming from...or where my reasoning is going south.
Bill
Bill
It is not the same as a 1714 or 1715 tuner. Those are canned tunes by ECM code.
The Edge looks like an awesome product but it is a canned tune for each ECM code just like my 1715 tuner. Meaning every one with an Edge and an ABC1 ECM gets the same tune regardless of driving habits or whether they have added an intake, MAF, Throttle body etc. Custom tuning would adjust for those variables. Datalogging makes sure that the custom tune is optimized.
Nothing wrong with a canned tune if it is done right. I am happy with my canned tune 1715. I may sell it and upgrade to a custom tune in the spring.
The TP XCAL is not a canned tune. It is custom.
Last edited by Norm; Jan 9, 2006 at 09:52 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
From: North Little Rock, Arkansas
Here it is. Hopefully this will stop some of the bickering back and forth. The SCT does ship blank. The following is taken from the sct website
*********************
The SCT XCalibrator 2 is designed for Custom Tuning applications and for use with our Advantage 3.0 Custom Tuning Software by our network of SCT dealers. This tool offers our network of Certified SCT Dealers a reliable and quick flash tool for your Ford Custom Tuning requirements. Tool stores up to 3 Custom Tune files while storing the factory tune, however ships blank.
************************
Now as far as what TP does with this blank SCT when he gets it...I have no clue. Does he have a database of all the various ford pcm's that he loads into a 2004+ truck, dyno runs it, then tweeks it....I don't know and I really don't care. I'm sure a search will find the answer to that.
I've got an Edge product and am happy with it.
*********************
The SCT XCalibrator 2 is designed for Custom Tuning applications and for use with our Advantage 3.0 Custom Tuning Software by our network of SCT dealers. This tool offers our network of Certified SCT Dealers a reliable and quick flash tool for your Ford Custom Tuning requirements. Tool stores up to 3 Custom Tune files while storing the factory tune, however ships blank.
************************
Now as far as what TP does with this blank SCT when he gets it...I have no clue. Does he have a database of all the various ford pcm's that he loads into a 2004+ truck, dyno runs it, then tweeks it....I don't know and I really don't care. I'm sure a search will find the answer to that.
I've got an Edge product and am happy with it.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,409
Likes: 1
From: Sunny FL
A few important facts that are sometimes overlooked is that Mike has specialized in tuning F150’s for 14 years and Troyer Performance is a major contributor to the research and development of SCT products
As long as everyone is satisfied with their product, that’s what counts
As long as everyone is satisfied with their product, that’s what counts
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,805
Likes: 2
From: NEVADA
Random House definition: forum - 3. a meeting place or medium for discussion of matters of public interest
bill - no drama here.
Very few members here will have your depth of experience, and you are prolly in the top 1% as far as that goes.
However, I bought an Edge last year with a credit card on line and received it by mail, and told the seller nothing other than shipping and credit card info.
To get my Troyer XC2, I filled out six pages of info, and received a phone call for clarification of some of the information I had provided.
OK, which is better?
bill - no drama here.
Very few members here will have your depth of experience, and you are prolly in the top 1% as far as that goes.
However, I bought an Edge last year with a credit card on line and received it by mail, and told the seller nothing other than shipping and credit card info.
To get my Troyer XC2, I filled out six pages of info, and received a phone call for clarification of some of the information I had provided.
OK, which is better?
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 798
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by ONELOWF
To get my Troyer XC2, I filled out six pages of info, and received a phone call for clarification of some of the information I had provided.
OK, which is better?
OK, which is better?
Just because you filled them out doesnt mean they had an impact on the final tune. If they did, im not sure it would make enough difference for you to worry about. It's not like changing 100 parameters will give you 30 hp and changing 10 will give you 10hp. By changing 10 (rough guess) parameters, im "sure" you can get VERY Close to that number (maybe better). Every tuner has a built in margin of safety as well, so that will close the gap regarding performance gains as well. My $0.02...
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
From: Kristiansand, Norway
Want one
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
Hi Gman,
Most of the people here have us do our Troyer Performance custom tuning, as we have specialized in the F-150 platform longer than anyone else, and are well known for getting the best results.
Now in terms of your fuel mileage, that is really up to you - how you drive the vehicle, how well you maintain it (not doing dumb things like leaving O2 sensor in for 70K miles, etc. and the quality of fuel you feed it - the better you maintain that vehicle, the better results you are going to get in terms of both mpg and to a lesser extent the sheer raw power gains at full-throttle, too.
It is true that the majority of our customers *do* in fact report MPG gains here - you can spend some time reading over posts and you will soon see a clear pattern of many people posting about gaining about 2 mpg overall in most cases. Some gain 1 mpg, some of the hot-roded trucks gain no mpg, and some gain 3.5 mpg, it all depends on your truck & how you treat it & feed it, basically.
Now of course, nobody with a brain thinks that performance tuning is somehow supposed to magically pay for itself, that isn't going to happen nor is it ever supposed to. It's *performance* tuning, so what it is supposed to do is to improve *performance* - any mpg gains that come along with that are icing on the cake, so to speak. But as long as you keep your foot out of the firewall, and use good quality fuel, then yes, you will generally see some mpg gains from our tuning, almost everyone who actually tracks that properly does report gains in those areas as well.
On a truck that only gets about 12-14 mpg at best, you are increasing that by on average anywhere from 8.3% to 14+ % better fuel economy with a 1-2 mpg gain, and that is very respectable indeed - nobody could ask for more, that is a huge extra bonus from performance tuning.
If you'd like to go over any of this in more detail so you'll have a good idea of exactly what you can reasonably expect, please feel free to give us a call at our number listed below, & we'll be happy to go over this with you, OK?
In the meantime, best of luck with your truck!
Most of the people here have us do our Troyer Performance custom tuning, as we have specialized in the F-150 platform longer than anyone else, and are well known for getting the best results.
Now in terms of your fuel mileage, that is really up to you - how you drive the vehicle, how well you maintain it (not doing dumb things like leaving O2 sensor in for 70K miles, etc. and the quality of fuel you feed it - the better you maintain that vehicle, the better results you are going to get in terms of both mpg and to a lesser extent the sheer raw power gains at full-throttle, too.
It is true that the majority of our customers *do* in fact report MPG gains here - you can spend some time reading over posts and you will soon see a clear pattern of many people posting about gaining about 2 mpg overall in most cases. Some gain 1 mpg, some of the hot-roded trucks gain no mpg, and some gain 3.5 mpg, it all depends on your truck & how you treat it & feed it, basically.
Now of course, nobody with a brain thinks that performance tuning is somehow supposed to magically pay for itself, that isn't going to happen nor is it ever supposed to. It's *performance* tuning, so what it is supposed to do is to improve *performance* - any mpg gains that come along with that are icing on the cake, so to speak. But as long as you keep your foot out of the firewall, and use good quality fuel, then yes, you will generally see some mpg gains from our tuning, almost everyone who actually tracks that properly does report gains in those areas as well.
On a truck that only gets about 12-14 mpg at best, you are increasing that by on average anywhere from 8.3% to 14+ % better fuel economy with a 1-2 mpg gain, and that is very respectable indeed - nobody could ask for more, that is a huge extra bonus from performance tuning.
If you'd like to go over any of this in more detail so you'll have a good idea of exactly what you can reasonably expect, please feel free to give us a call at our number listed below, & we'll be happy to go over this with you, OK?
In the meantime, best of luck with your truck!
I would really like to get an xcal 2 with custom chip.
How do i get one?
Thanks.
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA
WHat about when ford changes the motor? I mean, sure, 10 years ago you got your first looks at the 4.6, and then the 5.4.....Now you have a 5.4 with a different number of valves and a whole different tuning setup. If I have 20 years experience tuning a 5.0, does that mean that I know how to tune the newest 5.4? I'm not looking of the drama either, just a reasoning behind the apparent blind following here that rarely if ever has a base comparison. People scream TP and the xcal2, but few of them have ever had anything else. And some of those that have have reported some gains, but nothing absolutely spectacular. I still stand firm that you don't need a custom tune for a stock to mildly modified truck. Unless you have a real reason to increase your A/F ratios and curves, you're not really going to accomplish all that much. (and by good reason I mean some serious bolt ons, like heads cams or blower) Most trucks these days are coming factory set for high octane, so its already set to run a "premium" program. It will even revert to 87 settings if you so elect to fill it with cheap gas. Don't you think if there were 50 ponies hiding in the computer that you'd have heard about it on the 6 oclock news by now? We're in the times of HP wars and I don't personally think that Ford would let 50HP go the wayside without at least an option of such.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
I see a fair mount of childishness and some outright deliberate misrepresentations being made here................and they aren't fooling anyone with a brain or who actually knows anything about this, or about what we do in our custom tuning.
First, no we do NOT send our "canned Troyer tunes" - that is an outright false statement, end of story. There are no "canned" tunes in our custom tuning, and anyone making that claim is making it up, and further, knows absolutely nothing about what we really do - period.
Next - for anyone that actually knows anything about tuning mass-air vehicles - no, you DO NOT just "add fuel" to an engine that is running lean. The MAF transfer function must be completely re-written, requiring thorough datalogging. When you do not get the commanded A/F, you do NOT change that by making ANY changes to the fuel tables whatsoever, that is horse-hockey. No mass air vehicle is properly tuned that way, and anyone with a brain knows that would only result in the tuning constantly changing, as forcing fuel table changes is basically the same as doing stupid things like tuning around a peaked MAF - the tunes changes every time temperature, humidity, baro or density altitude changes - and that is NOT tuning, that is extremely poor guesswork that NO mass air tuner worth their salt would ever do (well, other than maybe as an emergency for a championship contender at the last points meet of the season, and that doesn't apply here, basically).
Once you are commanding the correct and desired A/F, any deviation from that requires MAF TF scaling, and that is something that NO product on the market can do by just pressing a few buttons. Not one. Sure, there are some that allow you to add a few percent of fuel, but they are just throwing gross adjustments across the board, they are NOT even remotely properly scaling the MAF TF, period.
Nobody who actually has any experience with us would *ever* call our Troyer Performance custom tuning "canned" - only those with an agenda would pull crap like that. And it's funny, every time a group of a few naysayers gets together and starts spouting nonsense as I see a fair amount of here in this thread, our phones ring just that much more with even more orders from people who want their vehicles tuned correctly.
Its' plain and simple - the off the shelf products change made 4 to 8 tables and that's it - period. Nobody who knows anything about "tuning" would ever call that a "tune," that's a guess, and it's completely generic, the same for all. Yep, that's really smart for those companies who are only concerned with craning out as many cookie-cutters as they can, but it sure as heck isn't proper tuning.
Now I'm glad for everyone that is happy with whatever they get - that's really all that matters for those who do not know about tuning, is that they get whatever makes them happy - and that is perfectly fine by us, we want *everyone* to be happy!
But don't try attacking us in the process, or making up crappola you know nothing about, or that doesn't' even remotely apply to these vehicles, etc. I dare say there probably aren't 2 of you (if that) who actually knows the difference between a generic off-the-shelf product and what it does versus s what we do in our custom tuning - or why it even matters.
For Ganners - if you are interested in our Troyer Performance custom tuning for these vehicles, the way to get our Troyer Performance custom tuning is to simply give us a call at our number listed below - that number is in each one of our posts & we'll be happy to go over this with you.
I wish you all well,
First, no we do NOT send our "canned Troyer tunes" - that is an outright false statement, end of story. There are no "canned" tunes in our custom tuning, and anyone making that claim is making it up, and further, knows absolutely nothing about what we really do - period.
Next - for anyone that actually knows anything about tuning mass-air vehicles - no, you DO NOT just "add fuel" to an engine that is running lean. The MAF transfer function must be completely re-written, requiring thorough datalogging. When you do not get the commanded A/F, you do NOT change that by making ANY changes to the fuel tables whatsoever, that is horse-hockey. No mass air vehicle is properly tuned that way, and anyone with a brain knows that would only result in the tuning constantly changing, as forcing fuel table changes is basically the same as doing stupid things like tuning around a peaked MAF - the tunes changes every time temperature, humidity, baro or density altitude changes - and that is NOT tuning, that is extremely poor guesswork that NO mass air tuner worth their salt would ever do (well, other than maybe as an emergency for a championship contender at the last points meet of the season, and that doesn't apply here, basically).
Once you are commanding the correct and desired A/F, any deviation from that requires MAF TF scaling, and that is something that NO product on the market can do by just pressing a few buttons. Not one. Sure, there are some that allow you to add a few percent of fuel, but they are just throwing gross adjustments across the board, they are NOT even remotely properly scaling the MAF TF, period.
Nobody who actually has any experience with us would *ever* call our Troyer Performance custom tuning "canned" - only those with an agenda would pull crap like that. And it's funny, every time a group of a few naysayers gets together and starts spouting nonsense as I see a fair amount of here in this thread, our phones ring just that much more with even more orders from people who want their vehicles tuned correctly.
Its' plain and simple - the off the shelf products change made 4 to 8 tables and that's it - period. Nobody who knows anything about "tuning" would ever call that a "tune," that's a guess, and it's completely generic, the same for all. Yep, that's really smart for those companies who are only concerned with craning out as many cookie-cutters as they can, but it sure as heck isn't proper tuning.
Now I'm glad for everyone that is happy with whatever they get - that's really all that matters for those who do not know about tuning, is that they get whatever makes them happy - and that is perfectly fine by us, we want *everyone* to be happy!
But don't try attacking us in the process, or making up crappola you know nothing about, or that doesn't' even remotely apply to these vehicles, etc. I dare say there probably aren't 2 of you (if that) who actually knows the difference between a generic off-the-shelf product and what it does versus s what we do in our custom tuning - or why it even matters.
For Ganners - if you are interested in our Troyer Performance custom tuning for these vehicles, the way to get our Troyer Performance custom tuning is to simply give us a call at our number listed below - that number is in each one of our posts & we'll be happy to go over this with you.
I wish you all well,