Not sure if belongs in here or not, but the experts seem to hang out here...

i had my truck dynoed this weekend and wanted to compare the 1714 tunes to stock. I had a problem with running the 1714 tune because i couldnt lock out 3rd gear to get a full run (3000 - 5500). How can i get a decent run with the 1714? I had the shop loan me a chip that didnt alter anything but the speed limiter and the 3rd gear lockout, so i got a baseline. 229 hp, 288 tq.

The other question is: Is a tailpipe sampler ok? Obviously the cats alter the emissions but the tech said that the dynojet software compensated for it. My a/f was 14.5 so i'm not sure.

I really wanted to see the difference before i ponied up for the xcal2.

 

HI!... 14.5 A/F ratio at WOT is really lean! In N/A form you should be around 12.5:1. I personally don't like the tailpipe sniffers when running cats. They can be off as much as 2 full A/F points from what I have seen. That's why I run a INNOVATE MOTORSPORTS wide band. (LC-1/XD-1). If it's possible have another 02 bung welded in just before your cats. This way the dyno shop can screw in their wideband sensor and get you a more accurate reading.

 

Yah, I know it's Lean (LEan is MEAN, right???). I don't think it is my shaker though. When i had my supercharged 95 cobra, street tuned, they just pulled an existing o2 sensor and replaced it with the wideband sensor. I got a CEL, but the eec4 didnt put the car in limp mode or anything. Will the 04 F150 processor allow you to do that or will it put the truck in limp mode or something similar.

I am thinking that whatever was going on with Marc Carpenter's truck when MT was tuning it is what's happening to mine. MT has documented how trying that was.... I wonder if i will have to get MT to tune it on the dyno or can he work his magic long distance

 

ditto what neal said-i had an extra bung added to the exhaust on my "little v-6" trans am-makes for much accurate redaings for tuning!-phil

 

Hi Gobra,

First, you are not going to get something like a 1714 to lock into 3rd gear at idle, nor should that ever be expected - you have no control over that, neither does any dyno operator. The ONLY way you can do that is thru CUSTOM tuning to control the transmission.

To do real "testing" that has any validly requires a LOT of knowledge and experience, experience that I find the vast majority do not have (and I mean even shop owners who are good people in many cases, and I mean NO offense to ANYONE!!! ) In other words, you can't just take a vehicle to a dyno and do some runs, that won't work, as you will never get "accuracy" or correct procedure, etc.

For example, anyone who knows the 2004 & up F-150 should do only 2nd gear pulls using a stock driveshaft anyway, unless they want to potentially chew up the tail stock of your transmission or throw a u-joint, wheel weights, etc., due to the poor balance of all these items & more from the factory. We've seen it happen - just FYI so you'll know, OK?

And by the way - nor will any 2004 & up 5.4 3V make 228 Hp to the rear wheels in stock trim, unless maybe it was done at 30 degrees or something similar - we've never seen those numbers at even 45 degrees and we have dyno'd *many* bone-stock 2004 & up 5.4 3V F-150's, no matter what kind of dyno, what gear, or how the pull was done - sounds like either an optimistic Dynojet or some very cold weather (most likely, this time of year), but that truck will never make that power stock at say, 70-80 degrees, it would be 10-20 Hp less. This is just FYI so you will know, AND you need to do ALL your testing in the exact same conditions, otherwise your data means nothing - and forget any "compensation" factors in the dyno's software, that is not accurate, either. Many shop owners think it is - I do not, and I've been doing this a very long time, longer than most.

Next - I disagree with claims saying that you cannot get a correct A/F ratio from sniffing the tailpipe - that is absolute hogwash today as far as I am concerned.

Now a number of YEARS ago, we used to feel the exact same way! But that was before proper equipment was designed that allowed that to be done properly. The very LM-1 that Neal brags about is precisely what we use to do tailpipe sniffing, and is EXACTLY what DYNOJET uses in THEIR wideband A/F setup, whether it's mounted in a bung ahead of the cats or up the tailpipe - how's THAT for some reality! It's the exact same Bosch LSU4 wideband O2 sensor, friends. With the properly designed and patented exhaust clamp we use, we easily get repeatable readings within 2-3 tenths of a point comparing with A/f's sampled from welding in a bung AHEAD of the cats (the ONLY other way to compare, not plugging into the O2 socket of a cat!!) to what we get from the tailpipe using the clamp design we use that is based on the venturi principle to get proper airspeed & space sampling. The MAIN thing about sniffing at the tailpipe (which is fine for emissions testing, by the way, though unfortunately being phased out to lower the cost of gear for shop owners) is the type of exhaust clamp used, and knowing the pattern of the oxygen storage of the catalytic converters involved - which also means that whoever is doing the "testing" needs to know this platform very well, including the cat temp override constants & numerous other characteristics, such as how long it takes the cats to dump their stored oxygen at various power levels & exhaust pipe diameters, etc.

By the way Gobra, running at 14.5:1 is most likely a CORRECT number, and is not at all acceptable at full-throttle - the 1714 does NOT cause that on a bone-stock vehicle, that is happening most likely because that vehicle itself is running lean on it's STOCK factory tuning with no other modifications. See, there are a number of these 2004 & up F-150's that do this, regardless of what engine they have - we have seen this happen in 2004 & up F-150's time after time, and this is just one of many reasons why we say you really need to properly datalog and have us do our custom tuning if you want every vehicle to nail it's A/F's properly, and thus really be safe and get proper power and performance.

Con't.......

 

Con't......

By the way, if you use the SEARCH feature to read the results of our Dyno Day before last (2 dyno days ago, in other words), you can see that we already did exhaustive proper controlled comparison tests between stock, the 1714, and then our custom tuning on the 2004, and then again we did the same thing between stock, the Superchips 1745 and then our custom tuning on a 2005, in front of dozens of F-150 Online members, and in each case, we easily blew away the standard Superchips tuning - it was no contest, and both the 2004 an the 2005 were vehicles that, like yours, were running lean in stock trim. We also had duplicate vehicles of the exact same computer code that ran dead on their commanded 12.0:1 in stock trim, so we had proper control factors from that standpoint too - this was NOT a PCM revision differential, we read the strategy or each truck. There simply is no contest between them and our custom tuning, and everyone who has attended that Dyno Day (actually, weekend) knows that.

Now you please feel free to try to do "testing" of your own, by all means make yourself happy! But you have to actually know how to do that properly to get anything resembling accuracy - far too many people think that just because their vehicle was on a "dyno," that they got good numbers that tell the story because all "dyno's" are some mythically accurate machine, and that is all that is required - and few things could be further from the truth. I wish it WAS that easy, it would sure save us hundreds of thousands of dollars every single year!

Dynos vary widely, even the same dyno from day to day will vary a good deal, and you cannot depend on "compensation" factors plugged into many of the lower-cost inertia dyno's - you need extremely sophisticated datalogging that handles everything from every powertrain operating parameter & sourcing & conditions to also include true ambient, humidity, baro, and density altitude - without ALL of that done correctly and being virtually identical for each run, you simply do not have a chance to get *accurate* data.

This is just some general FYI for you, as far too many people try to do "testing" without really knowing just what is actually involved in doing proper comparative testing, and then post data that makes people think is "accurate," when in fact that vast majority of the time we find it is not accurate. And please understand, I do NOT mean to "rain on your parade" or "criticize," please do not misunderstand - I'm just trying to share with you here, and I hope that helps you, my friend.

Good luck!

 

Mike, Thanks for the reply. I know how big you are on controlled testing and i agree. My thoughts were that i could get a baseline stock (not really thinking about locking the converter up), a 1714 pull (probably could have lowered the 2-3 shift point and got a decent pull) and an xcal2 performance tune (from an unnamed SCT vendor). I put in an xcal2 with the 3rd gear locked up (where it would not kick down) and no other programming (this is what i was told) and I put down 229 hp and 288 tq. I have the shaker (was told it was 6 hp) and no muffler, and the temp was 60 and 25% humidity. I dont think those numbers are too far out. Marc Carpenter had 210 with a 4x4. Again different day , different dyno.

To be honest, i had the xcal 2 performance tune and it made LESS power than stock. There were a few spots where the xcal 2 was better but not overall. Of course, this was not a Troyer Performance Tune .

I DO know how to use the search feature and i HAVE READ your posts regarding the Dyno days and the information gained form your posts have been a big help. If you gain 30 hp over what i have now, i would be truly impressed.
My question still is: How do you get a baseline ,stock and with the 1714, when you cant control lockup?
How did you get your baseline ?

How do i know when i get a tuner that i am getting what i paid for (performance wise)? I would have been mad as HELL if i mail ordered this thing and got zero performance out of it. I would like to talk to you personally but everytime i've called i have not been able to talk to you.

OK, I have tossed you some softballs, so your turn to knock them out of the park.

 

Oh yeah, I 've ordered a chip for my old 01 4x4 and a 1714 from you. Where's MY ding dang Christmas card? :santa:

 

Mike was saying how after a couple hundred miles the Truck's performance will get better than it is immediately after the re-flash...Therefore I'm going to dyno my truck the opposite way:

Roll onto the dyno with the 92 Perf tune having been installed for a couple weeks. Then, re-flash to the stock Tune and pull again. This way, I'll have the best-case performance of the 92 Perf tune vs. an OEM 'right off the shelf' tune. Anyone see any glaring problems with the technique?

 

As I understand it, the stock tune will also take some time to adjust so either way, you are not getting an accurate measurement against each other..

 

well, I am in a way.

the third pull would be the Perf Tune again. I'd have back-to-back comparison of Perf tune vs oem tune. no?