Does the Xcal2 void warranty?
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From: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
Hello AnotherNew Owner,
I sure hope you haven't stopped even further (if that's even possible given your conduct to date) to calling me a lair - I don't tolerate cowards hiding behind monitors to say things they'd *never* say to my face for fear of losing some teeth - so I really hope you haven't' stopped to that level.
I also hope you don't think or are trying to pass off what you have posted here merely represents healthy "skepticism," as if so, I'd say you really need to learn some manners, son.
Its' a shame there's just no entrance exam for the Internet.
I sure hope you haven't stopped even further (if that's even possible given your conduct to date) to calling me a lair - I don't tolerate cowards hiding behind monitors to say things they'd *never* say to my face for fear of losing some teeth - so I really hope you haven't' stopped to that level.
I also hope you don't think or are trying to pass off what you have posted here merely represents healthy "skepticism," as if so, I'd say you really need to learn some manners, son.
Its' a shame there's just no entrance exam for the Internet.
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Joined: Jun 2005
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From: NEVADA
I want to play Devil's advocate for one minute.......
If I was FOMOCO I would blow off all the aftermarket vs warranty issues I could.
Face it the auto manufacturers keep making better and more complicated products for every bone head in the world to experiment with using the latest mods off the internet ........... of course they don't want to share the burden of our screw-ups. I don't blame them.
If you reflash, don't bring yor problems to me!
As pertains to Troyer Perf, they are really good ..........I have purchased most of my mods from them and received them with no problems, and got a little needed tech help along the way ....that's all we can ask.
LOL to all .....I'm gonna go check out the sex thread........
If I was FOMOCO I would blow off all the aftermarket vs warranty issues I could.
Face it the auto manufacturers keep making better and more complicated products for every bone head in the world to experiment with using the latest mods off the internet ........... of course they don't want to share the burden of our screw-ups. I don't blame them.
If you reflash, don't bring yor problems to me!
As pertains to Troyer Perf, they are really good ..........I have purchased most of my mods from them and received them with no problems, and got a little needed tech help along the way ....that's all we can ask.
LOL to all .....I'm gonna go check out the sex thread........
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From: CA
Originally Posted by jpdadeo
Excellent advice that is ultra-rarely followed * if ever
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From: Ogden, UT
AnotherNewOwner,
Please grow up and lose the sarcastic, antagonistic demeanor. I am surprised Mike Troyer would actually give you the time of day with the type of attitude you display on this board.
I have witnessed dealers who will try to deny warranty coverage for anything under the sun and I have also seen dealers who strongly support the aftermarket and even sell and install many aftermarket items at their dealerships. There are many manufacturers' who have performance divisions. Ford has SVT, Nissan has NISMO, Dodge has MOPAR performance. Using your flawed logic, a consumer could never install any of these parts on their vehicle because they would cause excessive wear and tear and in turn be denied warranty coverage. The bottomline is, the dealership must prove the aftermarket part in question caused or at the minimum, contributed to the failure before denying warranty service. I have personally observed that those dealerships that are quick to deny warranty service normally back down when an educated consumer presses them on specifics.
If you would like to become better educated on the subject, a good place to start would be to do a search on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
Please grow up and lose the sarcastic, antagonistic demeanor. I am surprised Mike Troyer would actually give you the time of day with the type of attitude you display on this board.
I have witnessed dealers who will try to deny warranty coverage for anything under the sun and I have also seen dealers who strongly support the aftermarket and even sell and install many aftermarket items at their dealerships. There are many manufacturers' who have performance divisions. Ford has SVT, Nissan has NISMO, Dodge has MOPAR performance. Using your flawed logic, a consumer could never install any of these parts on their vehicle because they would cause excessive wear and tear and in turn be denied warranty coverage. The bottomline is, the dealership must prove the aftermarket part in question caused or at the minimum, contributed to the failure before denying warranty service. I have personally observed that those dealerships that are quick to deny warranty service normally back down when an educated consumer presses them on specifics.
If you would like to become better educated on the subject, a good place to start would be to do a search on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
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From: NH
Originally Posted by Eric H
If you would like to become better educated on the subject, a good place to start would be to do a search on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C))
This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of the law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part:
“No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name...” (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)).
This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of the law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part:
“No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name...” (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)).
The act does NOT protect anyone, nor does it in anyway force a dealer to prove that an aftermarket part, designed solely to enhance vehicle performance (i.e. tune, chip, blower, pulley’s etc) caused the damage. It is not covered under this act.
For example, if you take your vehicle in with a blown motor, or seriously damaged motor and the dealer sees evidence that a chip had been used, or is in use that is it, it stops their. The dealer tells you tough luck and don’t have to prove anything. Why? Because Ford’s warranty clearly states that if you modify your vehicle you void your warranty.
Now, if you have a chip and your wipers stop working, or the electric windows don’t work then the dealer has to repair that since it has nothing to do with a performance chip.
As some people continue to state over and over read and study the act and you will find that NO performance enhancing device (i.e. tune, chip, blower, pulley’s etc) is covered under the act.
Performance related sites like SEMA, who profit from the sells of performance related merchandise, falsely mislead people to believe this act protects them when it does not. It only protects you if you use a different brand of oil, or filter or any other “replacement” part on your vehicle, NOT when you modify the “original” design from the manufacture.
Also, all the manufacture has to do is write into the warranty, as Ford does, that any modifications done to the vehicle, which modifies its original design from the factory (i.e. tune, chip, blower, pulley’s etc), can VOID a warranty and then the manufacture, like Ford, is protected by this very same act everyone keeps referring to…
Research, reading and comprehending goes a long way…
Last edited by 01 XLT Sport; Aug 27, 2005 at 01:53 PM.
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From: Dayton, OH
Someone posted that a dealer could not tell if a tuner had ever been installed, then someone else (sorry, didn't pay attention to the names) stated they could... I know zilch about vehicle systems, what is the reasoning behind each position? Is it simply that many have done it without incident? With my luck, I'd be the first.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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From: ???.....depends on the day
Originally Posted by AnotherNewOwner
Seriously, how old are you? I'm having a lot of difficulty with the concept of you running your own business. You don't understand most of what I've said, you can't back up your claim about the info you say is on SEMA, you apparently don't know what a non-profit is, and now you're threatening me over what amounts to your own ignorance. Hey, didn't I ask you nicely not to be a jerk? So much for manners. An entrance exam to the Internet? You should hope not.
This boards primary purpose is to provide assistance to fellow F150 owners (and other auto owners via the GD Forum)...and to be quite blunt....you are doing nothing but providing counter-productive posts that are just wasting fellow members time...
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From: New Jersey
[QUOTE=01 XLT Sport]From: http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/magnusonmoss.htm
Why is it so hard for so many people to understand that the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act has absolutely NOTHING to do with MODIFIYING ones vehicle?
The act does NOT protect anyone, nor does it in anyway force a dealer to prove that an aftermarket part, designed solely to enhance vehicle performance (i.e. tune, chip, blower, pulley’s etc) caused the damage. It is not covered under this act.
Says you...your NON-legal opinion.
Research, reading and comprehending goes a long way.
Your not a Lawyer....even if you stayed at a Holiday Express...so how can you say...with ABSOLUTE confidence...your correct?
"manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge"
In other words...they can't tell you what to use as long as it meets minimum spec.
"However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part:"
Notice the sentence....where such parts ACTUALLY caused damage....theres where the burden of proof lies on the Manufaturer not the consumer....it's not hard to understand. Yes, I realize the dealer will put you through the ringer and void the warranty at there fancy but that dosen't make them correct legally. Here's where you need an attorney.
"Also, all the manufacture has to do is write into the warranty, as Ford does, that any modifications done to the vehicle, which modifies its original design from the factory (i.e. tune, chip, blower, pulley’s etc), can VOID a warranty and then the manufacture, like Ford, is protected by this very same act everyone keeps referring to…"
There is NO law that prevents them from writing what they want in there manual....that dosen't make them imune or unable to follow pertinent federal and state law.
IMHO, there is NO way a programer that gives an additional 50-60 hp is going to damage my 5.4 and if it does the engine is a piece of CRAP to begin with so why worry about a warranty...get a Dodge. This debate/discussion is beat to death all of the time and NO resolution will EVER be found here by all the legal beagles who claim to know the truth, including me. So everyone chill and do want ya want to your vehicles...if you are worried and have trouble sleeping at night wondering if you used the correct air filter, oil, tires then my advice is, don't modify your vehicle and have them service it when called for in the maual...me I sleep great
Why is it so hard for so many people to understand that the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act has absolutely NOTHING to do with MODIFIYING ones vehicle?
The act does NOT protect anyone, nor does it in anyway force a dealer to prove that an aftermarket part, designed solely to enhance vehicle performance (i.e. tune, chip, blower, pulley’s etc) caused the damage. It is not covered under this act.
Says you...your NON-legal opinion.
Research, reading and comprehending goes a long way.
Your not a Lawyer....even if you stayed at a Holiday Express...so how can you say...with ABSOLUTE confidence...your correct?
"manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge"
In other words...they can't tell you what to use as long as it meets minimum spec.
"However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part:"
Notice the sentence....where such parts ACTUALLY caused damage....theres where the burden of proof lies on the Manufaturer not the consumer....it's not hard to understand. Yes, I realize the dealer will put you through the ringer and void the warranty at there fancy but that dosen't make them correct legally. Here's where you need an attorney.
"Also, all the manufacture has to do is write into the warranty, as Ford does, that any modifications done to the vehicle, which modifies its original design from the factory (i.e. tune, chip, blower, pulley’s etc), can VOID a warranty and then the manufacture, like Ford, is protected by this very same act everyone keeps referring to…"
There is NO law that prevents them from writing what they want in there manual....that dosen't make them imune or unable to follow pertinent federal and state law.
IMHO, there is NO way a programer that gives an additional 50-60 hp is going to damage my 5.4 and if it does the engine is a piece of CRAP to begin with so why worry about a warranty...get a Dodge. This debate/discussion is beat to death all of the time and NO resolution will EVER be found here by all the legal beagles who claim to know the truth, including me. So everyone chill and do want ya want to your vehicles...if you are worried and have trouble sleeping at night wondering if you used the correct air filter, oil, tires then my advice is, don't modify your vehicle and have them service it when called for in the maual...me I sleep great
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From: Detroit Rock City
Originally Posted by JerseyGeorge
...there is NO way a programer that gives an additional 50-60 hp is going to damage my 5.4...
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From: NH
there is NO way a programer that gives an additional 50-60 hp is going to damage my 5.4
Anyway, yes there is such a programmer, the Predator, which is like the XCal2. It came, or still comes with a tune for the Lightning’s. There have been at least 3 5.4 supercharged motors blown using that tune. So yes it is very possible to blow a motor with a programmer and in doing so it does not mean the motor is a POS.
The same motors blown with a simple programmer tune, which may have gave 40 additional horsepower, are quite capable of putting out 450hp with no problems. Of course the catch is to have someone like Mike or the other professional tuners, who are supporting vendors here, do the tune.
All I was trying to state, and I believe you agreed, is nobody can tell another person there is any such law that protects a consumer against having part of their warranty denied because they modified their vehicle beyond the original manufacture design.
If someone could truly do that, a vendor or business, then I would expect them to step up to the plate and offer a warranty to the customer that states something along the lines of:
”If you should experience a warranty denial due to our product we will fully pay to have your vehicle repaired or pay all of your legal expenses with no questions asked.”
Until someone can give that kind of warranty it is buyer beware, and as I pointed out, very easy to find information on the internet that will give you the reality of what the “act” was designed for and it has nothing to do with changing the original manufactures design…
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From: Ogden, UT
01 XLT Sport,
Please take your own advice and re-read the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act more carefully. If you read it carefully, you will see it affords the consumer certain rights and also spells out the parts suppliers' responsibilty to the consumer. This is not all bad for the supplier. Spelling out the suppliers' responsibilties also protects them from over-zealous consumers who might "ask for the moon" in the event of a failure.
As far as your statement: ”If you should experience a warranty denial due to our product we will fully pay to have your vehicle repaired or pay all of your legal expenses with no questions asked.” There are already auto manufacturers out there that do, in essense just that. Toyota comes to mind. They sell bolt on superchargers that fit the Scion TC, Camry and a few others. Yes, they are covered by the factory warranty and yes their warranty contains the legal speak you were referring to. Check out this website: http://www.trdusa.com/warranty.asp
Please take your own advice and re-read the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act more carefully. If you read it carefully, you will see it affords the consumer certain rights and also spells out the parts suppliers' responsibilty to the consumer. This is not all bad for the supplier. Spelling out the suppliers' responsibilties also protects them from over-zealous consumers who might "ask for the moon" in the event of a failure.
As far as your statement: ”If you should experience a warranty denial due to our product we will fully pay to have your vehicle repaired or pay all of your legal expenses with no questions asked.” There are already auto manufacturers out there that do, in essense just that. Toyota comes to mind. They sell bolt on superchargers that fit the Scion TC, Camry and a few others. Yes, they are covered by the factory warranty and yes their warranty contains the legal speak you were referring to. Check out this website: http://www.trdusa.com/warranty.asp
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From: NH
Eric,
With all due respect I have read the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. I did so some time ago due to the fact I have thought, and still thinking, about modifying my Lightning.
Therefore I’ll tell you what. I challenge you or anybody else to please quote to me directly from the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act where it states you can modify your vehicles original design, specifically involving the motor, and how this act will force a manufacture to repair a motor under warranty?
I don’t want anything related to “aftermarket” parts because a Fram oil filter is an aftermarket part that is a “replacement” part.
I want something directly related to what we are talking about which is performance chips or performance tunes uploaded into the ECU via XCal2 or any other flash programmer.
Neither of those mentioned above are direct replacement parts, which in my opinion, is what the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act describes. The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act was written, in part, to protect consumers against the manufacture forcing an owner to use their specific brand for a replacement part UNLESS the manfacture provided that part free of change, then the manufacture could force the consumer to use theirs and only their parts.
The word “aftermarket” is what gets thrown around by everybody when they want to misquote the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.
Your correct, the XCal2, by itself won’t void your warranty. However, once you plug it in and upload a program it very well could void part of your warranty. So, the same challenge to you as well. Please quote me directly from the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act where you believe ”it can’t 
”
Just a little more side information. Did you know that even though Ford can not dictate to you what brand of oil or filter or any other replacement part to use that they can force you to use something that meets “their” specifications?
It’s true, the manual tells you what specifications the oil must meet, transmission fluid ect. So, even if you use a different brand, which is completely legal, if it doesn’t meet Ford’s specification you can still get part of your warranty denied.
With all due respect I have read the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. I did so some time ago due to the fact I have thought, and still thinking, about modifying my Lightning.
Therefore I’ll tell you what. I challenge you or anybody else to please quote to me directly from the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act where it states you can modify your vehicles original design, specifically involving the motor, and how this act will force a manufacture to repair a motor under warranty?
I don’t want anything related to “aftermarket” parts because a Fram oil filter is an aftermarket part that is a “replacement” part.
I want something directly related to what we are talking about which is performance chips or performance tunes uploaded into the ECU via XCal2 or any other flash programmer.
Neither of those mentioned above are direct replacement parts, which in my opinion, is what the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act describes. The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act was written, in part, to protect consumers against the manufacture forcing an owner to use their specific brand for a replacement part UNLESS the manfacture provided that part free of change, then the manufacture could force the consumer to use theirs and only their parts.
The word “aftermarket” is what gets thrown around by everybody when they want to misquote the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.
Originally Posted by jpdadeo
The XCal2 won't void your warranty; it can't
”Just a little more side information. Did you know that even though Ford can not dictate to you what brand of oil or filter or any other replacement part to use that they can force you to use something that meets “their” specifications?
It’s true, the manual tells you what specifications the oil must meet, transmission fluid ect. So, even if you use a different brand, which is completely legal, if it doesn’t meet Ford’s specification you can still get part of your warranty denied.
Last edited by 01 XLT Sport; Aug 27, 2005 at 10:18 PM.
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From: New Jersey
"Actually I believe your just throwing some numbers out there since there is no programmer that will give you and additional 50-60hp. You would be lucky to see 30 – 40 additional horsepower"
I'm just throwing numbers out...yes. Okay 40 HP...is that better....now if that blows a 5.4, it's definately a CRAP engine? What are you shoveling out...I need hip-boots for the BS flowing. Three blown motors...I think your just throwing that out. Without a doubt there is more to the story than just a Lightning with a custom tune and a blown motor
I've had an F250 PSD programmed, two F150's programmed and one Chevy and NEVER have I had a problem...NEVER! Now if I was to add a Rousch SC and run it with an overdrive pully and get a custom tuner with a shot of Nitrous, HP fuel pump and some bigger injectors couple that to a high stall converter and some slicks I wouldn't expect the oem engine to last and wouldn't expect to get the dealer to warrant it. Now that being said...I surrender
I'm just throwing numbers out...yes. Okay 40 HP...is that better....now if that blows a 5.4, it's definately a CRAP engine? What are you shoveling out...I need hip-boots for the BS flowing. Three blown motors...I think your just throwing that out. Without a doubt there is more to the story than just a Lightning with a custom tune and a blown motor
I've had an F250 PSD programmed, two F150's programmed and one Chevy and NEVER have I had a problem...NEVER! Now if I was to add a Rousch SC and run it with an overdrive pully and get a custom tuner with a shot of Nitrous, HP fuel pump and some bigger injectors couple that to a high stall converter and some slicks I wouldn't expect the oem engine to last and wouldn't expect to get the dealer to warrant it. Now that being said...I surrender