Pro-M 77 mm vs Chip ?
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
From: California
Gorp - or is that Gump - your scources do not know what they are talking about. In California there are Ford dealers selling K&N Fipks and all types of chips. One is Fairway Ford in Placentia, California. Believe me, they would not sell a product that would possibly damage a vehicle that they would have to cover under warrenty. Your friend must work at a Ford dealer with limited technical knowledge. If your motor did not run properly when you put chip in you may have damaged your motor or trans when you had the supercharger on it. I have had a Superchip on a truck for 50,000 miles and it never skipped a beat and ran like a bat out of hell. Of all the people on this board that run the Superchip (has to be over 100 by now, I have only heard 2 or 3 people complain. What's wrong with this picture?
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2000 F150 SuperCab, Short Bed, 4X4, ORP, 5.4L, Auto Trans, 3.55LS, Captains Chairs with power drivers seat, rear slider, class III towing package, remote entry with alarm and just about everything you can get on this truck. Added a Ford bug deflecter, floor mats, a Dynamax Race magnum muffler and 3" mandrel bent pipes, Superchip, K&N FIPK Gen II and Bilstein shocks.
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2000 F150 SuperCab, Short Bed, 4X4, ORP, 5.4L, Auto Trans, 3.55LS, Captains Chairs with power drivers seat, rear slider, class III towing package, remote entry with alarm and just about everything you can get on this truck. Added a Ford bug deflecter, floor mats, a Dynamax Race magnum muffler and 3" mandrel bent pipes, Superchip, K&N FIPK Gen II and Bilstein shocks.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
From: Champaign,IL USA
If you don't like your Superchip post in the classified of the site I'm positive someone will take it off your hands. As far as product, and company/ salesperson to slam, i believe you picked to wrong one. I have seen a few cases of a Superchip not working right and have seen nothing but effort on Mike Troyer's part to right the problems. There's no snake oil being sold here. Most of us here bought our chip from him and have conversed with him in the process and would be hard pressed to find another buying experience that was as pleasant. Maybe he should give Ford dealers lessons I have found most of them to be a pain in the @ss to buy from. Now to say that you would never put your chip in again for fear of damaging your engine then in the same breath say you would not hesitate to reinstall your supercharger, I'm can't quite figure out your angle on this. If you think for one sec that your friends that won't do warranty work on chipped vehicle would do it on one with a supercharger that was not installed at the factory, you had better think again.
Member
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
From: Friendswood, TX, US
First let me say this... I am not bashing anybody. These are my options and experiences.
I will say this…
If chip companies really cared about what product they sold they would have worked with Ford and made a flash programmer to write there program to the computer, Then if your truck had a problem Fords SBDS system could read it. But no, you have to scrape the contacts of the service port and install the chip on that and then tape it to the box... What a way to install... Ford SBDS system will not read the processor if you have a chip installed. They would also have worked with Ford to make sure their product does not void your warranty. This is not the case ether. Instead they try to hide behind the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that is not worth the paper it is written on. So tell me this how many aftermarket companies will come to court and stand by my side, help me out with the court cost while I fight Ford telling me that my nice after-market product toasted my motor. I think the answer is none.
I will say this…
If chip companies really cared about what product they sold they would have worked with Ford and made a flash programmer to write there program to the computer, Then if your truck had a problem Fords SBDS system could read it. But no, you have to scrape the contacts of the service port and install the chip on that and then tape it to the box... What a way to install... Ford SBDS system will not read the processor if you have a chip installed. They would also have worked with Ford to make sure their product does not void your warranty. This is not the case ether. Instead they try to hide behind the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that is not worth the paper it is written on. So tell me this how many aftermarket companies will come to court and stand by my side, help me out with the court cost while I fight Ford telling me that my nice after-market product toasted my motor. I think the answer is none.
Gorp, no flame intended, but I'm afraid that you don't understand the technology behind these engine computers. Let me try to clarify why the need for a chip instead of a eeprom flash, and also why the chips don't work with Fords SBDS system.
First, they (chip makers) have to distribute the new program as a chip. It would be too cost prohibitive to sell everyone an EEPROM programmer, as the cheaper ones are still well over $500, and require the use of a PC!
Second, in Ford vehicles prior to 1996, (or '97, can't remember) the computers weren't flash upgradeable. The whole computer had to be replaced. Thus another reason for the use of a chip.
Third even if they could distribute the new firmware as a flash, you would have no way to revert to the original program without having to take it in to a dealer. With any chip, you simply disconnect the battery for a few minutes, remove the chip and you're back to factory programming.
And finally, there are 2 reasons why aftermarket chips don't work with the SBDS system. It has something to do with how the computer locks out the diagnostic port when service port is in use. I'm a little fuzzy there, perhaps someone here could expand on that. The second is that Ford (and all automakers in general) really don't want you using aftermarket parts and accessories in your vehicle. I can guarantee if Ford thought there was enough money to be made in performance chips, they'd be offering them.
You claim that the Magnuson-Moss Warranty isn't worth the paper it's writen on. Do you have anything to back that up like a bad personal experience? The act was created to prevent manufacturers offering product warranties from requiring the use of factory parts and accessories in order for the warranty to be valid.
If your dealer has given you a hard time with warranty service because of an aftermarket part, without a convincing explanation linking the problem to the part then try another dealer. I always do business with the purchasing dealer, that way I can always threaten to buy elsewhere if they give me hard time. So far I have never had to do that.
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2000 F-150 XLT, Styleside, White, Dark Graphite Int., 4x4, 4.6L, 3.55 L/S, Off-Road pkg (Skid Plates, Cab Steps, Heavy Duty Shock Absorbers, LT265/70R17SL), Class III Towing pkg with Heavy Duty Cooling pkg, 4 wheel disk ABS, Overhead Console, Factory In-Dash CD, Remote Keyless Entry, and Sliding Rear Window.
Added: K&N FIPK, Cabin Air Filtration, Ventvisors, Ford Bug Deflector
[This message has been edited by Y2K OffRoad (edited 05-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Y2K OffRoad (edited 05-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Y2K OffRoad (edited 05-11-2000).]
First, they (chip makers) have to distribute the new program as a chip. It would be too cost prohibitive to sell everyone an EEPROM programmer, as the cheaper ones are still well over $500, and require the use of a PC!
Second, in Ford vehicles prior to 1996, (or '97, can't remember) the computers weren't flash upgradeable. The whole computer had to be replaced. Thus another reason for the use of a chip.
Third even if they could distribute the new firmware as a flash, you would have no way to revert to the original program without having to take it in to a dealer. With any chip, you simply disconnect the battery for a few minutes, remove the chip and you're back to factory programming.
And finally, there are 2 reasons why aftermarket chips don't work with the SBDS system. It has something to do with how the computer locks out the diagnostic port when service port is in use. I'm a little fuzzy there, perhaps someone here could expand on that. The second is that Ford (and all automakers in general) really don't want you using aftermarket parts and accessories in your vehicle. I can guarantee if Ford thought there was enough money to be made in performance chips, they'd be offering them.
You claim that the Magnuson-Moss Warranty isn't worth the paper it's writen on. Do you have anything to back that up like a bad personal experience? The act was created to prevent manufacturers offering product warranties from requiring the use of factory parts and accessories in order for the warranty to be valid.
If your dealer has given you a hard time with warranty service because of an aftermarket part, without a convincing explanation linking the problem to the part then try another dealer. I always do business with the purchasing dealer, that way I can always threaten to buy elsewhere if they give me hard time. So far I have never had to do that.
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2000 F-150 XLT, Styleside, White, Dark Graphite Int., 4x4, 4.6L, 3.55 L/S, Off-Road pkg (Skid Plates, Cab Steps, Heavy Duty Shock Absorbers, LT265/70R17SL), Class III Towing pkg with Heavy Duty Cooling pkg, 4 wheel disk ABS, Overhead Console, Factory In-Dash CD, Remote Keyless Entry, and Sliding Rear Window.
Added: K&N FIPK, Cabin Air Filtration, Ventvisors, Ford Bug Deflector
[This message has been edited by Y2K OffRoad (edited 05-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Y2K OffRoad (edited 05-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Y2K OffRoad (edited 05-11-2000).]
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Dear Y2K Offroad & others,
Just to let everyone reading this thread know exactly where we stand on this, I am not going to encourage a pointless and endless debate; suffice it to say that the Superchip will *NOT* cause *damage* to anyone's engine installed and used as per the manufacturer's instructions. We simply would not have anything to do with a manufacturer whose products did cause damage, as our reputation would instantly suffer, and I think it's pretty obvious what our reputation really is. As we have seen from other posts already, people here have been using them for many thousands of miles, with no problems, and that simply could not happen if the product had any tendency to cause damage, let alone if they automatically damaged all vehicles, as claimed. Installed and used as per the manufacturer's instructions, the Superchip cannot cause engine damage, period.
I will state that if anyone has a concern over this, they are welcome to call us and we'll be happy to go over this in detail, as we always have for almost a decade now.
Just to clarify what happens when your vehicle is connected to Ford's SBDS (Service Bay Diagnostic System) with the Superchip installed.....
First, contrary to what was claimed, the Superchip does *not* in any way prevent the SBDS system from retrieving any error codes that may be present. What *will* happen is that the technician will get a code telling him or her that the computer's internal eprom chip is not functioning, which anyone with half a brain would know cannot be possible if the vehicle was driven into the dealership. And all techs know whether a vehicle was towed in or not, it's right on the service ticket paperwork. So much for that "theory".
What is *really* happening in this specific regard, SBDS, is Ford's own design. When you attach the Superchip to the J3 connector, the design of that circuit is such that is overrrides the computer's internal eprom by TURNING IT OFF! That is Ford's design, and it's a neat one. Attaching the Superchip engages this override circuit, which then tells the computer to turn off it's internal eprom, and seek it's instructions externally. Conversely, as soon as you remove the Superchip, once again the override circuit acts like an on/off switch, and tells the computer to turn back on the internal eprom. This clears that "false" error code and restores the factory program.
So if you do an SBDS read with the Superchip attached, you will get an additional "false" error code telling the technician the computer's internal EPROM has failed. Because there are no serviceable parts inside that computer, the technician's next step, if they breeze thru this without thinking, it to replace the computer! This is exactly why we suggest removing the Superchip prior to service, simply because most people do not have a thorough working knowledge of this circuit of course (including most techs unless they have direct experience with chips), and consequently do not feel comfortable telling the technician how to do their job, by telling them what's going to happen and that they basically need to simply ignore it.
That ends my comment on this, as I felt it was important for people to know just what happens with SBDS, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time in this debate.
Maybe we should take up a collection and send someone a Webster's......
Our bests to all,
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Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Online Superchip ordering system:https://www.f150online.com/scpp/index.html
Just to let everyone reading this thread know exactly where we stand on this, I am not going to encourage a pointless and endless debate; suffice it to say that the Superchip will *NOT* cause *damage* to anyone's engine installed and used as per the manufacturer's instructions. We simply would not have anything to do with a manufacturer whose products did cause damage, as our reputation would instantly suffer, and I think it's pretty obvious what our reputation really is. As we have seen from other posts already, people here have been using them for many thousands of miles, with no problems, and that simply could not happen if the product had any tendency to cause damage, let alone if they automatically damaged all vehicles, as claimed. Installed and used as per the manufacturer's instructions, the Superchip cannot cause engine damage, period.
I will state that if anyone has a concern over this, they are welcome to call us and we'll be happy to go over this in detail, as we always have for almost a decade now.
Just to clarify what happens when your vehicle is connected to Ford's SBDS (Service Bay Diagnostic System) with the Superchip installed.....
First, contrary to what was claimed, the Superchip does *not* in any way prevent the SBDS system from retrieving any error codes that may be present. What *will* happen is that the technician will get a code telling him or her that the computer's internal eprom chip is not functioning, which anyone with half a brain would know cannot be possible if the vehicle was driven into the dealership. And all techs know whether a vehicle was towed in or not, it's right on the service ticket paperwork. So much for that "theory".
What is *really* happening in this specific regard, SBDS, is Ford's own design. When you attach the Superchip to the J3 connector, the design of that circuit is such that is overrrides the computer's internal eprom by TURNING IT OFF! That is Ford's design, and it's a neat one. Attaching the Superchip engages this override circuit, which then tells the computer to turn off it's internal eprom, and seek it's instructions externally. Conversely, as soon as you remove the Superchip, once again the override circuit acts like an on/off switch, and tells the computer to turn back on the internal eprom. This clears that "false" error code and restores the factory program.
So if you do an SBDS read with the Superchip attached, you will get an additional "false" error code telling the technician the computer's internal EPROM has failed. Because there are no serviceable parts inside that computer, the technician's next step, if they breeze thru this without thinking, it to replace the computer! This is exactly why we suggest removing the Superchip prior to service, simply because most people do not have a thorough working knowledge of this circuit of course (including most techs unless they have direct experience with chips), and consequently do not feel comfortable telling the technician how to do their job, by telling them what's going to happen and that they basically need to simply ignore it.
That ends my comment on this, as I felt it was important for people to know just what happens with SBDS, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time in this debate.
Maybe we should take up a collection and send someone a Webster's......
Our bests to all,
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Online Superchip ordering system:https://www.f150online.com/scpp/index.html
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,565
Likes: 1
From: Columbus, Georgia
Gorp...
"you have to scrape the contacts of the service port" ...this is to prevent the contacts of the circuit board from corroding. Any electrical board or component that is exposed to even the slightest moisture will begin to corrode or fail if not properly protected. This is why ALL circuit boards are coated with a material to block out moisture. I use to build circuit boards many years ago...and it is important to protect them.
FORD puts a grease/rubber material on the contacts where the Superchip is installed because they know that some vehicles will have to be diagnostically checked..meaning...the material needs to be fairly easy to remove yet properly protect the contacts.
I recently helped a friend of mine install a Superchip in his 97 F-150...and I noticed corrosion on his computer bracket under his dash. He bought it used...so the history is not known (flooded..or ??). But if it is from a very small leak over the years..what do you think it would do to the internal computer components? The rubber/plastic cover over the port is not enough alone to protect exposed contacts.
And honestly...do you think a company such as Superchips would still be in business after 10 years + if they sold a bad product. Not a chance.
"Talking about after market stuff. I have heard it all and have seen Ford reps refuse warranty work on cars and trucks with aftermarket parts on them." ABSOLUTELY TRUE in some cases! This is why many owners contact zone reps, threaten to never return for future purchases or take the vehicle to another dealer. I can tell a good dealership from a bad dealership..I will not even let my local dealership check the air in my tires because of so many BS stories I have experienced and hearing what my friends have gone through.
And trust me...MIKE IS ONE OF THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE INDIVIDUALS you will find on here...not just with the superchip. I was on here for almost a year before I became a member and I frequent this site..almost daily. I can't begin to tell you what I have learned from Mike and everyone else in this time!!
Take it easy!!
Oh..I forgot to mention...it might interest you to know that many of my former peers, who flew in Vietnam, used 100 mph tape (duct tape basically..and very strong) to wrap around helicopter rotor blades to keep them flying after bullets put holes in them. If it works..use it! Sure Superchips could invent a fancy bracket to hold the chip in place...but that would increase the cost and installation time.
[This message has been edited by Dustoff (edited 05-11-2000).]
"you have to scrape the contacts of the service port" ...this is to prevent the contacts of the circuit board from corroding. Any electrical board or component that is exposed to even the slightest moisture will begin to corrode or fail if not properly protected. This is why ALL circuit boards are coated with a material to block out moisture. I use to build circuit boards many years ago...and it is important to protect them.
FORD puts a grease/rubber material on the contacts where the Superchip is installed because they know that some vehicles will have to be diagnostically checked..meaning...the material needs to be fairly easy to remove yet properly protect the contacts.
I recently helped a friend of mine install a Superchip in his 97 F-150...and I noticed corrosion on his computer bracket under his dash. He bought it used...so the history is not known (flooded..or ??). But if it is from a very small leak over the years..what do you think it would do to the internal computer components? The rubber/plastic cover over the port is not enough alone to protect exposed contacts.
And honestly...do you think a company such as Superchips would still be in business after 10 years + if they sold a bad product. Not a chance.
"Talking about after market stuff. I have heard it all and have seen Ford reps refuse warranty work on cars and trucks with aftermarket parts on them." ABSOLUTELY TRUE in some cases! This is why many owners contact zone reps, threaten to never return for future purchases or take the vehicle to another dealer. I can tell a good dealership from a bad dealership..I will not even let my local dealership check the air in my tires because of so many BS stories I have experienced and hearing what my friends have gone through.
And trust me...MIKE IS ONE OF THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE INDIVIDUALS you will find on here...not just with the superchip. I was on here for almost a year before I became a member and I frequent this site..almost daily. I can't begin to tell you what I have learned from Mike and everyone else in this time!!
Take it easy!!
Oh..I forgot to mention...it might interest you to know that many of my former peers, who flew in Vietnam, used 100 mph tape (duct tape basically..and very strong) to wrap around helicopter rotor blades to keep them flying after bullets put holes in them. If it works..use it! Sure Superchips could invent a fancy bracket to hold the chip in place...but that would increase the cost and installation time.
[This message has been edited by Dustoff (edited 05-11-2000).]
Thanks for the enlightenment Mike. Guess I was a little off-base on the SBDS/Computer/Chip concept.
Based the testimonials of others I've read about the SuperChip I plan on buying one in the near future! As soon as I add my Tonneau cover!
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2000 F-150 XLT, Styleside, White, Dark Graphite Int., 4x4, 4.6L, 3.55 L/S, Off-Road pkg (Skid Plates, Cab Steps, Heavy Duty Shock Absorbers, LT265/70R17SL), Class III Towing pkg with Heavy Duty Cooling pkg, 4 wheel disk ABS, Overhead Console, Factory In-Dash CD, Remote Keyless Entry, and Sliding Rear Window.
Added: K&N FIPK, Cabin Air Filtration, Ventvisors, Ford Bug Deflector, New: Ford Bedliner
Based the testimonials of others I've read about the SuperChip I plan on buying one in the near future! As soon as I add my Tonneau cover!
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2000 F-150 XLT, Styleside, White, Dark Graphite Int., 4x4, 4.6L, 3.55 L/S, Off-Road pkg (Skid Plates, Cab Steps, Heavy Duty Shock Absorbers, LT265/70R17SL), Class III Towing pkg with Heavy Duty Cooling pkg, 4 wheel disk ABS, Overhead Console, Factory In-Dash CD, Remote Keyless Entry, and Sliding Rear Window.
Added: K&N FIPK, Cabin Air Filtration, Ventvisors, Ford Bug Deflector, New: Ford Bedliner
Member
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
From: Friendswood, TX, US
Y2K OffRoad:
I have not had any bad experances with Ford dealerships. As a matter of fact I get first class treatment, Helps when family and friends work at one and another good friend owns the dealship. I understand a lot more about these trucks than most.
Talking about after market stuff. I have heard it all and have seen Ford reps refuse warranty work on cars and trucks with aftermarket parts on them. However, having a connection on the inside I do not worry about that. I just don't think any aftermarket company will stand by your side in court and help you fight your case. You would have better luck smoozing your service rep for help.
The Superchip I purchased gave me nothing but problems. It screwed up my TP sensor, caused my transmission to shift sporadically and caused my engine to surge a high RPM's. These all went away when I took the chip out.
Before I bought the chip my friends warned me about the troubles thay have seen with them and I did not beleave. I do beleave them now.
I have not had any bad experances with Ford dealerships. As a matter of fact I get first class treatment, Helps when family and friends work at one and another good friend owns the dealship. I understand a lot more about these trucks than most.
Talking about after market stuff. I have heard it all and have seen Ford reps refuse warranty work on cars and trucks with aftermarket parts on them. However, having a connection on the inside I do not worry about that. I just don't think any aftermarket company will stand by your side in court and help you fight your case. You would have better luck smoozing your service rep for help.
The Superchip I purchased gave me nothing but problems. It screwed up my TP sensor, caused my transmission to shift sporadically and caused my engine to surge a high RPM's. These all went away when I took the chip out.
Before I bought the chip my friends warned me about the troubles thay have seen with them and I did not beleave. I do beleave them now.