Question for Mike T.
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From: Saint Peters, MO USA
Question for Mike T.
Mike T:
Just wondering since you guys are able to affect shift points and line pressure, are you able to affect torque converter lockup with the Superchip? I am still trying to get rid of the hunting while in OD.
Happy Thanksgiving
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98 F-150 4X4 Ext Cab ORP 4.6L Superchip, Gibson Cat Back Single exit exhaust, TransGo Performance Shift Kit, K&N Filter. Future: 4.56 gear swap, shorty headers.
Just wondering since you guys are able to affect shift points and line pressure, are you able to affect torque converter lockup with the Superchip? I am still trying to get rid of the hunting while in OD.
Happy Thanksgiving
------------------
98 F-150 4X4 Ext Cab ORP 4.6L Superchip, Gibson Cat Back Single exit exhaust, TransGo Performance Shift Kit, K&N Filter. Future: 4.56 gear swap, shorty headers.
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Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
Hi Bill,
How are you? Nice to "hear" from you!
Well, that is part of the strategy to satisfy throttle demand, and that's really never going to change, as long as you have a lock-up torque converter in there, and you don't want to change that. Anytime it starts hunting, simply take it out of Overdrive, and leave it out, until either your load or the terrain changes to lessen the load on the powertrain. You see, it gets down to a matter of how much torque is available on part-throttle to satisfy throttle demand, whether it's from your right foot, or from the cruise control being set. And the only way to really affect that is to increase engine power. It probably *could* be programmed to stay *out* of lockup, but you just don't want to do that, in my opinion. You induce more slippage, heat, engine rpms, and worsen gas mileage for very little gain in performance, so it's really not the answer, again, in my opinion.
If I understand your complaint properly, and it's the same one that everyone else has about these vehicles, the torque converter coming out of lockup at the mere sight of an incline, I don't think keeping the torque converter at a higher rate of stall is the answer. You'll simply need to leave it out of Overdrive.
You might want to think about a gear change, as that is generally the most cost-effective way of multiplying torque to the rear wheels. In looking at your signature line, I see that you have a 4.56 gear swap and a set of headers in the works already, so I think you're already firmly on track. I think you're going to be much happier when you do the gear change. The engine will be back up in it's power band, where it can make a bit more horsepower, and have the torque multiplied even more by the gear change. I think you're going to find that this is the way to go. After all, you have an *extremely* heavy and also a tall vehicle, being propelled by relatively little horsepower. Under those conditions, there just isn't any way that vehicle is not going to come out of lockup & Overdrive under load.
I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear. This condition is improved with the Superchip, as it gives more torque on part-throttle, so it will tend to stay in Overdrive and/or lockup a bit longer. But any real load, like an incline, is still going to make it attempt to get the engine back up into it's power curve once it senses it cannot satisfy throttle demand at such a low rpm, so it's can do it's job. It's a matter of how much torque is available to overcome the weight and aerodynamic drag of the vehicle, and we're talking about a *lot* of weight and drag.
Best of luck, and please do let me know what happens after your gear change!
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
[This message has been edited by Superchips_Distributor (edited 11-26-1999).]
How are you? Nice to "hear" from you!
Well, that is part of the strategy to satisfy throttle demand, and that's really never going to change, as long as you have a lock-up torque converter in there, and you don't want to change that. Anytime it starts hunting, simply take it out of Overdrive, and leave it out, until either your load or the terrain changes to lessen the load on the powertrain. You see, it gets down to a matter of how much torque is available on part-throttle to satisfy throttle demand, whether it's from your right foot, or from the cruise control being set. And the only way to really affect that is to increase engine power. It probably *could* be programmed to stay *out* of lockup, but you just don't want to do that, in my opinion. You induce more slippage, heat, engine rpms, and worsen gas mileage for very little gain in performance, so it's really not the answer, again, in my opinion.
If I understand your complaint properly, and it's the same one that everyone else has about these vehicles, the torque converter coming out of lockup at the mere sight of an incline, I don't think keeping the torque converter at a higher rate of stall is the answer. You'll simply need to leave it out of Overdrive.
You might want to think about a gear change, as that is generally the most cost-effective way of multiplying torque to the rear wheels. In looking at your signature line, I see that you have a 4.56 gear swap and a set of headers in the works already, so I think you're already firmly on track. I think you're going to be much happier when you do the gear change. The engine will be back up in it's power band, where it can make a bit more horsepower, and have the torque multiplied even more by the gear change. I think you're going to find that this is the way to go. After all, you have an *extremely* heavy and also a tall vehicle, being propelled by relatively little horsepower. Under those conditions, there just isn't any way that vehicle is not going to come out of lockup & Overdrive under load.
I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear. This condition is improved with the Superchip, as it gives more torque on part-throttle, so it will tend to stay in Overdrive and/or lockup a bit longer. But any real load, like an incline, is still going to make it attempt to get the engine back up into it's power curve once it senses it cannot satisfy throttle demand at such a low rpm, so it's can do it's job. It's a matter of how much torque is available to overcome the weight and aerodynamic drag of the vehicle, and we're talking about a *lot* of weight and drag.
Best of luck, and please do let me know what happens after your gear change!
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
[This message has been edited by Superchips_Distributor (edited 11-26-1999).]
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Oklahoma City
Mine has to be going up a pretty steep incline before the OD/torque converter disengages.
When I test drove the F150s I noticed the 5.4L doesn't "hunt" or downshift as much as the 4.6L when going up an incline that was near the dealership.
Needless to say I was sold on the 5.4L
When I test drove the F150s I noticed the 5.4L doesn't "hunt" or downshift as much as the 4.6L when going up an incline that was near the dealership.
Needless to say I was sold on the 5.4L
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 81
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From: Greensburg, IN
Mike,
I have another question for you. What effect would a bad or improperly mounted cam position sensor have on the ability of the Superchip to maximize perfromance?
I posted in the engines section explaining the situation.
I removed the SuperChip before taking the truck to the dealer, and haven't reinstalled it yet.
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Michael
99f150@pickupman.com
mkrieger@mailcity.com
99 F-150 XLT Supercab, 4x2, Bright Red/Harvest Gold, 4.2L, Automatic, 3.55LS, 255/70R16 Goodyears, Captains Chairs, Keyless Entry, CD Changer, Tow Package
Accessories: SuperChip, Donnelly Compass Mirror, Lariat Wheelwell Moldings and Bumper Cap, Ford Splash Guards, Bug Shield, Bed Mat, WeatherTech Deflectors, Mobil1 Synthetic Oil
Modifications: Painted Tailgate Handle, A/C on/off switch
I have another question for you. What effect would a bad or improperly mounted cam position sensor have on the ability of the Superchip to maximize perfromance?
I posted in the engines section explaining the situation.
I removed the SuperChip before taking the truck to the dealer, and haven't reinstalled it yet.
------------------
Michael
99f150@pickupman.com
mkrieger@mailcity.com
99 F-150 XLT Supercab, 4x2, Bright Red/Harvest Gold, 4.2L, Automatic, 3.55LS, 255/70R16 Goodyears, Captains Chairs, Keyless Entry, CD Changer, Tow Package
Accessories: SuperChip, Donnelly Compass Mirror, Lariat Wheelwell Moldings and Bumper Cap, Ford Splash Guards, Bug Shield, Bed Mat, WeatherTech Deflectors, Mobil1 Synthetic Oil
Modifications: Painted Tailgate Handle, A/C on/off switch
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From: Saint Peters, MO USA
Thanks for the response Mike. I figured that was the case. I was just hoping that I could get it to delay say from 50% throttle to say 75% to help the symptoms. I do not like running out of overdrive since I usually run 70-80 MPH and with the 3.55's and 3rd gear that equals about 3,000 RPM, too high for me for that long. You would think Ford would take steps to correct this with their new models.
I will have that gear swap done here in the next couple of months. I am still looking for someone to do the work here in St. Louis. Any suggestions?
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98 F-150 4X4 Ext Cab ORP 4.6L Superchip, Gibson Cat Back Single exit exhaust, TransGo Performance Shift Kit, K&N Filter. Future: 4.56 gear swap, shorty headers.
I will have that gear swap done here in the next couple of months. I am still looking for someone to do the work here in St. Louis. Any suggestions?
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98 F-150 4X4 Ext Cab ORP 4.6L Superchip, Gibson Cat Back Single exit exhaust, TransGo Performance Shift Kit, K&N Filter. Future: 4.56 gear swap, shorty headers.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
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From: Virginia
Dear 54regcab,
Your response makes my point exactly; the 5.4 has more power with which to satisfy throttle demand, and therefore tends to "hunt" in and out of Overdrive less, or perhaps later, than the same truck with a 4.6 would. It's a matter of available torque at cruising rpms on part-throttle, combined with your overall effective final drive ratio. If there's enough torque to overcome the load weight & drag, then it'll stay in gear and locked up. If not, the TQ unlocks, and then it downshifts, until it can satisfy throttle demand.
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Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Your response makes my point exactly; the 5.4 has more power with which to satisfy throttle demand, and therefore tends to "hunt" in and out of Overdrive less, or perhaps later, than the same truck with a 4.6 would. It's a matter of available torque at cruising rpms on part-throttle, combined with your overall effective final drive ratio. If there's enough torque to overcome the load weight & drag, then it'll stay in gear and locked up. If not, the TQ unlocks, and then it downshifts, until it can satisfy throttle demand.
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Dear Mike,
Good question. And one that I don't know the correct technical answer to. What I don't know is, just exactly what does the cam positon sensor do, and what do any irregularities thereof cause to happen elsewhere in the system? Does it serve primarily as a verification of crank postion sensor data, keeping an eye on how close cam timing is to crank timing for example, or does it have a more active role, in other words. Any good Ford technician could probably answer this immediately, but a good Ford technician/line mechanic I am *not*! Perhaps we'll get lucky and a Ford tech will pop up and give us an answer to that.
At any rate, the effect on the Superchip could well be negligible, or it may be substantial, like the crankshaft position sensor and it's control over timing. With bad crank sensor data, the vehicle either will not fire, or it will get progressively harder to start, particularly in humid weather, acting like it's not getting any fuel. In fact, it's not getting any spark. I'm sorry I can't answer your question any better than that. I am not an expert on all of these systems, by any means, so while I'm happy to answer what I can, you've got me on this one! I've never observed this happening, so I just can't tell you what the result might be. Have you had the cam sensor replaced? If so, did that clear up any problems you were having?
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
Good question. And one that I don't know the correct technical answer to. What I don't know is, just exactly what does the cam positon sensor do, and what do any irregularities thereof cause to happen elsewhere in the system? Does it serve primarily as a verification of crank postion sensor data, keeping an eye on how close cam timing is to crank timing for example, or does it have a more active role, in other words. Any good Ford technician could probably answer this immediately, but a good Ford technician/line mechanic I am *not*! Perhaps we'll get lucky and a Ford tech will pop up and give us an answer to that.
At any rate, the effect on the Superchip could well be negligible, or it may be substantial, like the crankshaft position sensor and it's control over timing. With bad crank sensor data, the vehicle either will not fire, or it will get progressively harder to start, particularly in humid weather, acting like it's not getting any fuel. In fact, it's not getting any spark. I'm sorry I can't answer your question any better than that. I am not an expert on all of these systems, by any means, so while I'm happy to answer what I can, you've got me on this one! I've never observed this happening, so I just can't tell you what the result might be. Have you had the cam sensor replaced? If so, did that clear up any problems you were having?
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
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From: Saint Peters, MO USA
Jean,
4.56's will not put me at 3,000 RPM in OD if my calculations are correct. Right now with 3.55's I run about 1,850 RPM @ 70MPH in OD. With the 4.56's I will be at 2,350 RPM @ 70MPH in OD. I do not want to step down to say 3.08's because I drive a bit in town and this would hurt acceleration. I am running the stock ORP tires P265/70R17(31.6"). Here are the formulas I used:
3.55's
1,849.595=3.55*70*0.7*336/31.6
4.56's
2,375.818=4.56*70*0.7*336/31.6
Does this look correct? Let me know if not, I got the formula off a tire website.
I have also expermented by running the truck in 3rd @ 60MPH which equals 2,350 (give or take) to gage fuel economy in this realm. To my surprise, I got 15.5 MPG on hilly roads vs. 15.9 MPG on the same roads in OD and the truck pulls great to boot. I take the 1/2-1 MPG loss for the added power.
Regards,
Bill
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98 F-150 4X4 Ext Cab ORP 4.6L Superchip, Gibson Cat Back Single exit exhaust, TransGo Performance Shift Kit, K&N Filter. Future: 4.56 gear swap, shorty headers.
4.56's will not put me at 3,000 RPM in OD if my calculations are correct. Right now with 3.55's I run about 1,850 RPM @ 70MPH in OD. With the 4.56's I will be at 2,350 RPM @ 70MPH in OD. I do not want to step down to say 3.08's because I drive a bit in town and this would hurt acceleration. I am running the stock ORP tires P265/70R17(31.6"). Here are the formulas I used:
3.55's
1,849.595=3.55*70*0.7*336/31.6
4.56's
2,375.818=4.56*70*0.7*336/31.6
Does this look correct? Let me know if not, I got the formula off a tire website.
I have also expermented by running the truck in 3rd @ 60MPH which equals 2,350 (give or take) to gage fuel economy in this realm. To my surprise, I got 15.5 MPG on hilly roads vs. 15.9 MPG on the same roads in OD and the truck pulls great to boot. I take the 1/2-1 MPG loss for the added power.
Regards,
Bill
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98 F-150 4X4 Ext Cab ORP 4.6L Superchip, Gibson Cat Back Single exit exhaust, TransGo Performance Shift Kit, K&N Filter. Future: 4.56 gear swap, shorty headers.
Technical Article Contributor
Joined: Dec 1997
Posts: 9,417
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From: Windsor,Ontario,Canada
wschubbe,
If I understand your complaint is that your truck unlocks and locks the TC in OD and that 3000 rpm is too high for you in 3rd. My question is why then switch to 4.56:1 gears from 3.55? That will put you back up to 3000 rpm in OD. The switch is a 28% step so add 28% to your RPMs in OD to see what they will be. Unless you plan on changing the tires to taller ones?
Regards
Jean Marc Chartier
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00 F-150 XLT SC Flairside 4x4 4.6 w/5spd
Warn XD9000i, skid plates, Draw tite class III,
Rancho RSX Reflex shocks,
SmittyBilt Nerfs, Borla Cat Back
Modified Air Cleaner Outlet Tube
To Be installed;
Superchips
If I understand your complaint is that your truck unlocks and locks the TC in OD and that 3000 rpm is too high for you in 3rd. My question is why then switch to 4.56:1 gears from 3.55? That will put you back up to 3000 rpm in OD. The switch is a 28% step so add 28% to your RPMs in OD to see what they will be. Unless you plan on changing the tires to taller ones?
Regards
Jean Marc Chartier
------------------
00 F-150 XLT SC Flairside 4x4 4.6 w/5spd
Warn XD9000i, skid plates, Draw tite class III,
Rancho RSX Reflex shocks,
SmittyBilt Nerfs, Borla Cat Back
Modified Air Cleaner Outlet Tube
To Be installed;
Superchips
Member
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 81
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From: Greensburg, IN
Mike,
Thanks for the reply. My understanding is that data from the CPS (Cam position Sensor) is used in the timing the fuel injectors. I didn't realize how sluggish my truck was before. It runs excellent now, without the SuperChip installed, I will reinstall the chip once I get this tank of 87 fuel used up.
The thing that I'm concerned about is that if one engine was made with the CPS put in backwards ther are bound to be others with the same problem.
When you hit the gas with the CPS installed backwards there is a deffinite hesitation, with the CPS in properly ther is absolutely no hesitation. This may be something for other 4.2 owners to pay attention to.
------------------
Michael
99f150@pickupman.com
mkrieger@mailcity.com
99 F-150 XLT Supercab, 4x2, Bright Red/Harvest Gold, 4.2L, Automatic, 3.55LS, 255/70R16 Goodyears, Captains Chairs, Keyless Entry, CD Changer, Tow Package
Accessories: SuperChip, Donnelly Compass Mirror, Lariat Wheelwell Moldings and Bumper Cap, Ford Splash Guards, Bug Shield, Bed Mat, WeatherTech Deflectors, Mobil1 Synthetic Oil
Modifications: Painted Tailgate Handle, A/C on/off switch
Thanks for the reply. My understanding is that data from the CPS (Cam position Sensor) is used in the timing the fuel injectors. I didn't realize how sluggish my truck was before. It runs excellent now, without the SuperChip installed, I will reinstall the chip once I get this tank of 87 fuel used up.
The thing that I'm concerned about is that if one engine was made with the CPS put in backwards ther are bound to be others with the same problem.
When you hit the gas with the CPS installed backwards there is a deffinite hesitation, with the CPS in properly ther is absolutely no hesitation. This may be something for other 4.2 owners to pay attention to.
------------------
Michael
99f150@pickupman.com
mkrieger@mailcity.com
99 F-150 XLT Supercab, 4x2, Bright Red/Harvest Gold, 4.2L, Automatic, 3.55LS, 255/70R16 Goodyears, Captains Chairs, Keyless Entry, CD Changer, Tow Package
Accessories: SuperChip, Donnelly Compass Mirror, Lariat Wheelwell Moldings and Bumper Cap, Ford Splash Guards, Bug Shield, Bed Mat, WeatherTech Deflectors, Mobil1 Synthetic Oil
Modifications: Painted Tailgate Handle, A/C on/off switch
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
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From: Virginia
Dear mkrieger,
OK, thanks for filling me in on the rest of it. So the CamPS didn't prevent the engine from running like the CrankPS would, but it sure affected power & driveability, which isn't surprising, of course. I'm glad you got it taken care of!
It should run much better now, with and without the Superchip, so let's hope the Superchip puts a BIG smile on your face when you reinstall it.
Matter of fact, I'd be curious to hear back from you on that, to see if it runs better with the Superchip than it did before fixing this camPS, it should, I would think!
Good luck,
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com
OK, thanks for filling me in on the rest of it. So the CamPS didn't prevent the engine from running like the CrankPS would, but it sure affected power & driveability, which isn't surprising, of course. I'm glad you got it taken care of!
It should run much better now, with and without the Superchip, so let's hope the Superchip puts a BIG smile on your face when you reinstall it.
Matter of fact, I'd be curious to hear back from you on that, to see if it runs better with the Superchip than it did before fixing this camPS, it should, I would think!Good luck,
------------------
Mike Troyer
Performance Products, Inc.
National Distributor of Superchips
(540) 862-9515
Email: mtroyer@compuserve.com