I have a 1997 F150 4x4 4.6 I just got my 1715 from Troyer Performance a couple days ago and have some comments and questions.
The download went very smooth (running the 87 octane, unchanged settings from the tuner) and I took the truck out for an 8 mile test drive. On first wide open throttle it surged a bit throughout. On the ride back, surge almost gone, the next day gone totally. I assume it was learning. Anyway, my biggest problem before the download was the very slow (3/4 second) 12 upshift under wot and the downshift lag into passing gear.
I even first purchased the B&M electronic shift improver seeking the same remeadies. (By the way, during the super tune download and the test drives, the B&M was in # 2 stock setting).

The truck shifted noticably better on the 12 and the downshift to passing gear was perfect. I still wanted a better 12 tho so today I tried B&M #1. Better! Tried #3 and PERFECT!


So I'm thinking, great when ever I want the best shift, just flip the switch to number 3. #3 isn't to be used that much anyway. However, I also noticed two distinct downshifts to arrive at passing gear using #3. This one has me stumped. Ever hear of this Mike? Any suggestions? And of course ALL comments are welcome, I can't thank all of you enough for the information here.
Jeff in Florida

 

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for ordering the Micro Tuner.

And yes, I do have a suggestion - one that I hope you won't be offended by, as I'm going to state it rather vigorously so that everyone else reading this gets my point very clearly........................

Get that P.O.S. B&M electronic shift improver off of there and *never* use it again! That device should not be used on these Ford automatics, not on any setting - all it does is spike the voltage signal sent to the shift solenoids, hammering them & creating more electronic line pressure. And using it on level 3? Ever wonder why B&M says in their own documentation NOT to use it for any length of time on position 3?? Because that will damage the transmission - B&M knows that, which is why they say in it's booklet not to use that setting for any length of time.

Hammering the shift solenoids is a very bad idea, they are already a weak part to begin with in older FoMoCo vehicles - they have been revised numerous times all thru the 1990's. Those solenoids are constantly bathed in hot tranny fluid, and by now they are probably close to shot anyway even without that B&M piece, as in those model years they were still problematic sometimes. By now, after 7+ years of use and being bathed in hot tranny fluid all the time, *and* being subjected to that B&M piece cranked all the way up - they can't be in particularly good condition, so give 'em a break.

If you want to have instant upshift & downshift characteristics, we can certainly help you achieve that - you need not only the Superchips tuning, but you also need to mechanically modify the transmission so that it is actually capable of flowing enough fluid *volume* to do that without overworking the front pump, etc. All you are doing is pounding on it with electronic line pressure - not something you want to do. To get those near-instant upshifts & downshifts, order the Factory Tech Valve Body from us, as *that* in conjunction with the Superchips tuning will give you exactly what you're looking for without further damage to the transmission.

In short - Get that B&M piece off there, my friend - please.

Now, on to your observations about the Micro Tuner, etc...........

Anytime you change the PCM program or disconnect the battery, of course you'll go back thru the basic relearn cycle & adaptive strategy adjustments begin again from scratch as well - we've talked about that hundreds, if not thousands of times here over the past few years. After a PCM program change, you have to give it at least a dozen or more drive cycles, as well as at least 500 miles to see just how the shift characteristics are going to settle out.

In your F-150 owner's manual, you will see it says in there that the automatic transmission may shift differently for a while after a battery disconnect - same thing applies any time you change the program. When you flash the PCM with the MT, that clears the PCM - so you have to go thru all that (the basic relearn cycle and the adaptive strategy adjustments) from scratch. During that time, you can have temporary issues like idle speed & quality variances, surging, shift characteristics, etc. - that's how it is. Some vehicles exhibit no symptoms whatsoever during relearn, and some will exhibit grossly obvious symptoms. It varies that much from one vehicle to the next - them's the grits in any computer-controlled vehicle, not just F-150's, not just Fords, etc. - any computer controlled vehicle.

Now it *is* perfectly safe to have that tranny banging the gear changes hard, fast & furious like you want - but it's all in *how* you achieve that. What you want to do is properly achieved by using the Superchips tuning (and do not crank up the line pressure more than 2-3 notches above "ST" in the Micro Tuner, is my advice) in conjunction with the Factory Tech Valve Body. In other words, a combination of our tuning changes to correct the issues in the powertrain program, along with a mechanical modification to the transmission to make it physically capable of flowing more fluid *volume* - those two modifications will enable the tranny to shift as quickly as you want, both up and down.

There's fluid *pressure* and then there's fluid *volume* - a little bit more pressure is fine, but to get a really quick upshift & downshift, use more fluid *volume* combined with a relatively small increase in line pressure. What you're doing is akin to trying to drain a swimming pool thru a straw - it works, kinda-sorta, but it overworks a number of components inside that transmission in the process.

So please, whatever you do - get that B&M unit off of there right now and just throw it away - don't put it on a shelf, don't try to sell it to someone else - just put it where it belongs by throwing it away. Chalk that $49 up to a learning experience.

Give us a call if you'd like to go over this in more detail, & good luck!

 

Thanks Mike.
The only thread I could find on the B&M and the super tuner was that some of your customers use it along with. You certainly cleared that up! I never did like it much anyway, you feel it doing exactly what you described without making much of a shift improvement. Hard to describe to someone without feeling it, but you did it well. Also, the damn thing kept falling off the dash cuz the switch would never stay stuck to the velcro!
I'll get rid of it this weekend and maybe try setting the 12 shift +2 notches for now and look into the NEXT step in making me and my truck happier.....the FTVB!
Thanks once again

 

justusinfla, I have the Factory Tech Valve body that Mike sells in my truck and it's a BIG improvement. It shifts that truck hard. I also asked Superchips to give me hard shifts at WOT when they did the reburn. The truck shifts hard now. All the people I've given rides in/ let drive my truck that have F-150s w/ just chips all comment on how hard it shifts.

 

Thanks intel,
Leave it to Mike to explain that my infactuation with a 12 shift is a $600.00 fix. Hell, I had a hard enuf time with the wife on the $325 for the Micro Tuner!

 

Hi Jeff,

Yes, there were (and probably still are, though I hope not) some of our customers using that B&M piece - we've never sold it, we'd never sell that kind of device. Most people who have them got them a few years ago, back when it first came out for these vehicles - people saw something claiming to give better shifts for $49, and a lot of guys jumped on that bandwagon back then. And some people have used them on the lighter settings for some time, and not actually "broken" anything - heck, some people use it for years and don't have any "obvious" problem with the transmission. But it is harder on those solenoids, so it's just not a good idea long-term - thus we basically advise getting rid of them, preferably.

The Micro Tuner will increase the shift pressure, the way it does it is much better for the transmission than the B&M piece - but I still wouldn't crank the shift pressures in the MT all the way up. We prefer not to see them increased beyond about 3 notches above "ST" in the Micro Tuner. Raising it all the way up doesn't actually "hurt" the transmission, but it can potentially wear the front pump a bit quicker, I.E., you might see 80K miles worth of wear on the pump at say, 60K miles or so, for example - that's why I don't like to see the pressures cranked all he way up even with the Micro Tuner. If someone wants a tranny to shift really fast & hard, that can easily be done, and can be done safely - but it requires a combination of program changes *and* a mechanical change to allow the tranny to flow more fluid *volume*, so you're not just doing it with raw line pressure alone.

Once your budget recovers and you can get into the Factory Tech Valve Body (I should say *if* you decide to do that), you'll absolutely *love* what it does for the shift feel and how quickly it engages both upshifts & downshifts - that combination ( the MT & the FTVB) will do *exactly* what you're looking for, and will extend the service life of the friction materials inside the tranny - bands, clutches, etc.

Have fun & good luck with getting your wife's approval for the next purchase! (we all have to deal with that)

 

Mike...
I've been doing ALOT of reading ever since I joined this site and WOW...you're the best thing since cold beer and pretzels!!! Is answering these Q's a passion as well as a job for you(obviously yes), I mean do you answer these Q's during "work time?" It's obvious that you have a cultic following, and every time I log on I can't wait to buy something from "THE MIKE TROYER"



O.K. now some Questions:

I have just started to beef up my 2002 screw 5.4 4X4. I started with the K&N Filter kit, it's great(If I knew about this site I would've gone with one of your packages!!) but anyway that's where I stand right now.

1715 is the next logical step

dual exhaust next??Headers???cats???

33's(tires) next with a gear change(or can the 1715 be modified for the bigger tires?)

I'm looking for power, my truck does no pulling and very little hauling, so I guess I'm looking for some advice on a logical path to the build-up so I don't fall into the trap that MOST of us fall into, just like Jeff... buying equipment like the B&M or doing a mod to only realize that, if properly planned out, is unnecessary

 

by the way, Thanks for your time!!!

 

Hi Scottie,

Thanks, that's very kind of you. But I'm really just another completely fallible human being that drags his pants on one leg at a time - like everyone else.

First - I wouldn't say Jeff "fell into a trap" per se, he's a good guy and is now taking his time, doing his research and trying to do the most cost-effective mods. A LOT of people picked up that B&M piece just like he did - and truth be told, that B&M piece *does* do exactly what it claims to do - the manufacturer isn't lying or misrepresenting that product. It's just that because of how it does what it does, combined with what we know about the shift solenoids in these Ford trannies, we just don't like to see it used. That doesn't mean the manufacturer deceived anyone, as that product does in fact do exactly what it claims - and many manufacturers aren't that honest, especially in *this* business!

The Top 3 best bang for the buck mods are first, optimizing the powertrain program (using either the 1715 Micro Tuner, or, for the absolute *best* power & performance gains, having us to a more in-depth custom tune in the new custom SCT version of Micro Tuner) - and yes, we can compensate for changes to tire size and gear ratio do that your speedometer and odometer will be correct, no problem! Then next is to get the restriction out of the air intake tract with the Air Force One intake (and the K&N FIPK kit works too, it just makes a few less HP than the AF1). Then get the restriction out of the exhaust, by using a properly flow-engineered cat-back system - and there Magnaflow is doing the best job hands down.

No, I do not advise doing a true dual exhaust system on these trucks, unless you are either going to be bolting on a supercharger, or you are willing to spend a LOT of money to "do it right" - this is a very important area that has changed *radically* from when lot of us were growing up, back when you installed true duals and you automatically gained both horsepower and torque everywhere, at any throttle position, and at any rpm - that isn't eh case any more in these trucks! Any of the "name brand" true dual setups will actually *reduce* available torque below about 3000 rpm, even though there is a horsepower gain at higher rpms & heavy throttle. That's OK on a 3400 lb. Mustang, but *not* on a 5000 lb. truck or SUV, due to changes in the factory exhaust flow engineering. This is something you'll need to call us to have us go with you properly - there is a lot you will want to know about this issue specifically.

The easiest way to get up to speed on what mods to do first is to drop by our web site at www.TroyerPerformance.com and take a look at our Performance Packages section - there we list Stage 1 thru Stage 5 packages, listing the exact components & gains and costs, etc.

And of course, please feel free to give us a call so we can spend some time going over with you these things in proper detail, and helping you map out a plan of modifications, the costs, benefits, considerations, etc. - that is always the best thing to do, so I can explain things like why & how exhaust technology has changed to the point where automatically doing a true dual setup isn't the way to go, what we can do for you with an in-depth custom tune setup in a Micro Tuner, etc., etc. So do give us a blast at our number listed below when you get a chance & we''ll cover all of this & more.

Thanks for your post & good luck with your truck!

 

I picked this thread to update because I have a hell of a goood story to tell and didn't want to repeat myself. Everything with the truck came together today and the results were unbelievable. But in order to show proof, I'm going to have to go into a little (OK alot) of background and detail, so you can see what baseline I've been working with and towards. Stay with it tho, it's all good....promise!
I bought the truck new (740 miles). A red over silver 1997 F150 XLT Long Bed Style Side 4x4 with the 4.6L. It already had the matching glass shell and the LT285/75R16 Dunlop's when I bought it. Absolutley love at first site. Besides the look, I went with this truck because of the third door and the new (for Ford) torsion bar suspension. I was sold on torsion bar suspension because it excels in handeling, weight trasfer to the rearend under WOT and ease of raising or lowering the front end.
I know this because I used to race Mopars on the street and the dragstrip in the 70's. Earned my living as a mechanic until 1985 then enforced a very strick emission control program for another 15 years. During the emission years, I was provided with training to keep me current but rarely got any hands on experience. Book smart, but still way behind on practical experience.
Of all the 97's I test drove (at least a dozen over the course of a year) all exhibited a slow 12 upshift and the very long hesitation on the downshift to passing gear. I adapted and learned to live with it.
The truck had about 67K when just a few months ago, I stumble onto this site.......and everything changed. You guys charged me up and before I knew it, I had this plan laid out to fix things that were important to me, namely:
#1 Make it roar
#2 Fix the speedo (8 mph slow due to the tires)
#3 Fix the 12 upshift and the downshift to passing gear.
#4 Keep it on 87 octane and all for under $500.00

#1 and 2 was easy. I got rid of the muffler by replacing it with a straight pipe and keeping the stock single side exit. I cut off a foot of the tailpipe and reduced it down to a 2 1/4 chrome dual slash tip. Yes Mike, I gave up a couple of ponies there but spent $70.00 and it was the sound I was after, the money I had and I wanted it now, now now!! Speedo? 20 tooth to 18. 10 minutes and 8.00 and that was done! Thanks guys!
#2 Well, we all know how that turned out...loss on the B&M unit? about $50.00 I did it why? Cuz I wanted it RFN! Yes Mike, it went in the garbage can this weekend.
#2, 3 & 4: Had me baffled. I spent over $400.00 and it still was not performing the way I wanted. After the B&M got tossed I kept feeling like I'd done something wrong adjusting the 12 shift.
Here I am, the right side voice saying angel: "do what Mike says give it time... you get used to it, it gets used to you"... while the says: "You know you want it, you know you can figure this out, FIX IT!!".
Jeez!
So I get up at 7 am and look at threads til I get blurried eyed and crammed coursed on my issues. This is what I found and correct me if I'm wrong Mike...just don't expect me to change anything without a fight!
The shift pressure set by supertune is somewhere in the *middle* between Min and Max. When I set my pressure +2 it was from the minimum setting, thinking this was where the super tune baseline was. I think I got confused because there are differences in the 1715 since Sept of last year. Also, there is STK and ST issues too..getting them confused some times. Anyway, I go into to reset the 12 pressure and I counted nine dashes and also add one for min and one for max making a total of 11 possible adjustments. So 5.5 plus the no more than the 3 rule equals.....and I told the evil one I was going to average DOWN to the #8 spot and just deal with it.
So I made the adjustment and took it out on my 8 mile test drive.
12 upshift near perfect. Now let me explain this...how would you expect a bone stock factory brand new tranny to shift? Exactly, it's THAT good! I did not expect to get a trans shft kit response, but I nearly did! I never expected a 12 chirp. I was lucky to get that off the line! It wouldn't, so why bother? And why should it? The weight, the weight transfer under WOT and the 32" tires easily made it hook up and go.

Now, for some incredible "side" benifits.
If I want to break just about every known speed limit in the state, the 23 upshift is just, well, let me put it this way....the truck wanted to keep going even more than I did at that point. Don't need no ticket$!
With cruise control on, coming up on hills, there were reduced and even non existant downshifts. Why? More power, doesn't need to anymore! Yeah!
When I gently go from 55 to 60, the only way I can tell is by watching the speedometer. I could Always hear the load thru the exhaust before under these conditions, but not now. why? More power! Double yeah!
Then the ol left side goes "Hmmmm more power huh? How much more? Huh?"
OK, ultimate test. Off the line, no tricks with the brakes, dry flat pavement...idle to WOT. As I said, this is something the truck never did well other than to "pickup"and go. Nothing inspiring but acceptable. So I gave it a try...
They chirped! Let it run thru 12 and did it again.
They squealed! Let it run thru 12 and did it again.
OK, got 6 foot of serious patch that time. Let it run thru 12 and did it again.
As I'm mashed back into the seat, both tires are wailing and I look into the mirrors to see two 12' long (yes I went back and paced them off) by 9" wide black tire marks rapidly disappearing behind me I think "My gawd, mission acomplished!" Then the :devil says..."Ahem, now about that FTVB and of course 93 octane will come back down someday and you KNOW you never tow anything and that US AIR should would look good under the ol hood..you know you want it!"
Look, I KNOW setting a 12 shift pressure did NOT make all of this just "happen". Everything on this is set to the ST factory setting except for that 12 shift and hey, the time and driving cycles did happen, in spite of me. It was the operator who was holding back the show!
And Mike, you may not be able to feel the seat of the pants difference in some 6000 trucks, but it sure was something to see, feel and hear her lite up those Dunlops for the first time in her life.
Thanks Mike and to all of you!
Jeff
PS: And when Mike and Anita say call? Call them! Don't be shy and don't be cheap, spend the buck or two and call them! I did and Anita told me about the coming price hike..meaning I had 1 day to think it over. 30 minutes later I called back and ordered my 1715. And just lookey at what I got, well under budget too!

 

Hi Jeff,

Heh-heh.......... so you're an "old" Mopar drag racer too, eh? You'll love this - that's exactly what I used to do, drag race those older Mopar's - both in bracket racing as well as C-Modified. Torsion bar front suspensions, cheap & easy pinion snubbers in the rear, took all of $100 and just a few minutes to get a decent suspension setup for the drag strip for a 12-second car. And less than $1K (in the 70's) for a top-shelf 9-second car that could be street driven (again, for $1K I'm talking about getting the suspension setup up for excellent weight transfer, no wheel hop, harnessing the torque that is always wasted squatting the body in the rear coming off the line & trying to pick the right rear wheel off the ground and instead, use that torque to *force* the rear tires right into the pavement as *ALL* drag race vehicles should be setup, etc.) .

A *proper* suspension setup or *any* drag car or truck when leaving the line yields a vehicle attitude of front end up, back end UP - no dip in the rear! When you dip the rear, you are WASTING that torque instead of capturing it and refocusing it to *plant* the back tires into the pavement. The result is, the vehicle looks like it was hit from behind and underneath with a giant sledgehammer, as the front end domes up AND the distance between the top of the back tires and the bottom of the wheel well actually GROWS - and yields the best short times. That is the ONLY proper suspension setup for a drag strip configuration for virtually any doorslammer, car or truck - yet so few people do that. Even most Lightning owners waste time & $$$ trying to get the back of the body to squat and use 4-5 ft. long lift bars (well, they're really nothing more than slightly modified Rancho pieces) - well, that helps a bit, but you'll never cut the short times you could squatting the body and not capturing all that torque to plant the tires into the pavement.

We are the only company I know of that actually makes a pinion snubber made specifically for pickup trucks - and for the F-150 (patent pending, would-be imitators need not bother). This is done in conjunction with a good friend of mine whose Lightning & Cobra we also tune, and who is also a long-term member here, Marc Carpenter. We came up with the design together over the phone, tested, reconfigured, tested & reconfigured & tested again, and we've been shipping them for a few years now. And it's much cheaper than those 4-ft. long lift bars, but still people would rather spend 3x as much and get so much less, because they don't really understand that the back of the vehicle has no business dipping coming off the line - one of the most very basic things any old Mopar drag racer knows.

So it's *wonderful* to see another old Mopar drag racer, as *you* understand all of that - those Mopar's had the right setup, torsion bars up front for great lift, and a nice mounting boss on the 8 3/4 rear end for an inexpensive Mr. Gasket pinion snubber - heck, even the older 5.0 Mustangs had a snubber!

OK, I feel better now - I just had to get that out of my system..............

Jeff - it's amazing just how much difference there is when you set up the shift points & pressures as we recommend, and then go out & let it rip. We like the 2-3 WOT upshift point set *exactly* 2 notches above the middle ("STK," if memory serves), and then the shift pressures 2-3 notches above the middle ("ST," if memory serves), and *that* is a very nice configuration - it reduces upshifting under load up a grade by a good bit, also allows it to get back up into Overdrive a lot quicker after cresting a long grade that required a downshift. Then the shift pressures - once you wipe out the adaptive strategy by either clearing the PCM or by just going out and doing a half-dozen 1/4 mile passes - it's amazing what a difference it can make.

This is precisely why some drag racers will clear the PCM as soon as they get to the drag strip with their daily driver - normal driving causes adaptive strategy to dial back engine power a bit, and it also softens up the shift points, increases slip times, etc., etc. And your post is an *excellent* example of all of this working together correctly when you let 'er rip.

Thanks for your post & have fun!

 

I bought my pinion snubbers from Sox & Martin but it was only because of the name!
Its been a long time for both of us I can see. Thankfully my wife, 3 big dogs and lack of any serious $$$ helps to keep that insatiable appetite for the quarter mile at bay. Why do you think I bought a truck? No reputation to back up at every light, no 150 mph top end races and then looook who shows up on one of my random web searches!??!!
Just kidding! Thank you Mike and each member of F150 online. You all have given something back to me that has been repressed long enuf!
It's been 36 hours now and I still can't wipe the smile off my face over the performance of this truck! I verified again today that the 23 shift snaps in at exactly 80 mph. The 12 foot tire patch is still right where I left it yesterday too!
In hindsight, I now really wish I had gotten before and after 0-60 and quarter mile times but as I said, I didn't really expect much in that department, I had a different aganda.
I like yours better!
Ps....want to put one of those snubbers on order for me? Looks like I need one now!
Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

Good source - He (Ronnie Sox) was the best rower I have ever seen - *nobody* could shift like Ronnie - speaking of memory lane, do you remember that old video that showed him taking a factory stock oh, I forget, some kind of Mopar muscle car (don't remember if it was a 440 or a Hemi, but it was a B for sure).anyway, that video showed just how lighting quick he really was with that 4-speed - you could hear the rear tires chirping before you could see his hand come off the shifter, the camera was on his hand at all times, along with other shots - none of which ever showed his left foot technique, heh-heh..........

You can only keep those good things repressed for so long, and then when you least expect it...............Of all the gin joints..................

The snubbers are ready any time you are, we keep 'em in stock of course - so there's no rush.

Have fun,

 

To Mike and Jeff,
I mean ABSOLUTELY no disrespect to either of you OR the B&M company, my point was simply to cut down on the double whammy's when attempting to create the ultimate "play/work/honey, I need this mod" vehicle. The only example I can think of is when I swapped out tires in my past vehicle and had the gears re-done, only to have them re-done again, because I wanted bigger tires...should've just waited. If this site was around back in '95, I probably would've been able to figure it out that 32" tires weren't gonna be big enough for me.(man, I miss that truck).

Heck, if it weren't for you and the great members of this site, I probably would've done the old true dual exhaust trick that obviously doesn't work only to be disappointed by the results. It's great to know that there are peeps out there that can relate to what you want to accomplish with your vehicle and guide us "non-professional" types in the right direction.
And so I wait... and save...for the 1715!!!!

Scott

 

Learning is ALWAYS humbling but ALWAYS benefical.
-or-
Lessons learned hardest are lessons learned best
-or-
That which does not kill you makes you stronger
-or-
Knowledge is wisdom, wisdom is power
-or-
First one to the finish line WINS!
It's all relative to getting what you want, I got mine, now go get yours!


And as for you Mike, as soon as I get 8 or more hours sleep, I'm gonna send you an e-mail and pics that will make you as happy as you did me with my 1715! (Figured I'd better do the e-mail before they start calling this site the "Old Fogies Mopar Arm Chair Racers Association".