performance issues with flip chip.
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 246
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From: Monument, CO
performance issues with flip chip.
I've got a three program flip chip that I had dyno tuned and I have some concerns with the programming. When I first tested my truck after doing the L conversion, with the stock L motor. No chip. My best 1/4 mile time was a 14:30@95.6mph w/ 2.186-60'.
After installing traction bars, 4lb lower pulley, JLP intake box, 180 thermostat, and supposedly having it dyno tuned. The best I can muster up on the race program is a 14:22@94.9mph w/ 2.104-60'. So I said screw it, I pulled off the chip and ran on the factory program. It ran a best of 14.22@94.5mph w/ 2.075-60'. Same time as with the chip on race, and only .08 quicker then without mods.
I can tell the traction bars are working. I am baffled at the times and mph!
Shouldn't it have run much better with the mods on the factory program, then when it was stock on the factory program?
shouldn't it have run even better with the mods and the chip on race program?
The chip and dyno tuning wans't cheap, and to not get any performance gain from it is making me think it was a big waste of money. What should I do? Anyone have any insight?
After installing traction bars, 4lb lower pulley, JLP intake box, 180 thermostat, and supposedly having it dyno tuned. The best I can muster up on the race program is a 14:22@94.9mph w/ 2.104-60'. So I said screw it, I pulled off the chip and ran on the factory program. It ran a best of 14.22@94.5mph w/ 2.075-60'. Same time as with the chip on race, and only .08 quicker then without mods.
I can tell the traction bars are working. I am baffled at the times and mph!
Shouldn't it have run much better with the mods on the factory program, then when it was stock on the factory program?
shouldn't it have run even better with the mods and the chip on race program?
The chip and dyno tuning wans't cheap, and to not get any performance gain from it is making me think it was a big waste of money. What should I do? Anyone have any insight?
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi svt,
There's really nowhere near enough information or data in your post (or any realistic way of doing all of that here) to even begin to be able to troubleshoot, diagnose or find your problems.
Having done these conversions there can be any number of things going on, and the way it will be best diagnosed is by an experienced F-150 performance specialist. I see in your profile that you're a Ford tech, so you should be able to provide some good data with the tools you have access to, and thus be able to work well with an F-150 performance specialist to go over your vehicle.
Just guessing (and that's all it could be, a pure guess), if any of these times were run on different days, as most people tend to do, will not give accurate comparisons. No 2 days will have identical weather, temperature, humidity, baro pressure, track conditions, etc.
In a Lightning motor, just a 10 degree difference in temperature can easily mean a loss of 3 tenths on the track. And the difference between the quickest times of the year and the slowest times of the year (the difference between winter & summer) can be a 6-8 tenths or more. The Lightning's supercharger 5.4 motor & intercooler setup is very susceptible to summer heat & atmospheric changes. So the way to do comparisons at the track is to do them on the same day, under a strictly controlled before & after format. You can, if your track gives them, compare "corrected" times, but don't expect that to be extremely accurate.
We have no idea of the vehicle's configuration, what PCM is being used, was the Lightning's complete harness, fuel delivery system, all sensors, etc. used, what tranny, or things as seemingly mundane but important as how it's being staged when you run at the track, all the exact atmospheric data for each run, etc.
One thing that is helpful is to keep a log of each run, the place, date, exact time, and the temperature & humidity (at a minimum) so you can see just how your truck responds to variances even on the same day. Even if you just write it on the time slip, keep track. Heck, my Lightning can run times well into in the 11's with temps below about 85 degrees and humidity below about 70%, but you let it hit 80% or higher humidity, and/or temps anywhere near getting up into the 90's, and it slows right back down into the 12's, losing an easy half-second. Now in my case, that is because I am not running *any* enhancement to the stock intercooler, and I'm still using the stock Eaton M112 blower @ 17 PSI with no supplemental cooling spray, etc. Improving intercooler efficiency makes a big difference in hot weather in terms of running consistently quick ET's, & I haven't done that yet, so I see a BIG difference from what would seem to be relatively small changes in atmospheric conditions.
One very important point that nails us especially in summer is that the Ford COP ignition is relatively weak, you have to run very small plug gaps, and heat range is very important as well. Higher humidity just *kills* this ignition system's ability to fire the plugs under high cylinder pressure, a factor that we have to deal with every summer.
You're complaining about your tuning (or perhaps I should say, you suspect there may be an issue with the tuning), yet you say the vehicle was "dyno-tuned." Do you have all that data, including not just the A/F's but all other operational data logged during the dyno pulls, like fuel trims, MAF voltage curve, timing, IAT, ECT, load, etc.? That's what is needed, preferably overlaid on top of the dyno plot's rpm/power curve. If you don't have all of that data, you can't really know just what conditions the engine was actually operating under throughout the dyno pull(s). We like to see the dyno plot and the operational data from data logging, even if it's just using an NGS, you can write down the MAF voltage @ each sample rpm, timing at each sample rpm, etc., with every operational parameter logged, so you can see a good snapshot of just exactly what's happening at each sample point in the data logging, right on the dyno plot. That gives you a nice picture of what's really going on. If you don't have that data arranged in that manner, it's much harder to evaluate tuning parameters, IMHO, but of course different tuners have their own methods. I'm really just trying to say that you need to have all that data to know what the engine was doing while it was being tuned.
I do see very clearly where you mention running basically the same times with and without the chip - if this was done on the same day, after a proper cool-down, then this would tend to indicate that you're not getting further reductions in ET from the chip. There may be some more ET available in the tune, but then again, there just might not be. Usually you'll see at least 3+ tenths (and many times 5-7 tenths, depending on the year) reduction from running an optimized powertrain program on a Lightning, but then again, we don't know your configuration, are you using the Lightning's specific 4R100-HD tranny, or is this tied to a 4R70W, etc.
This is all really just non-specific information, some or all of which you may already know all about, so I'm most likely not being any real help to you here with my response. If you really feel you have a problem, and want to go over your situation to see if this vehicle is fully optimized for what is has done to it, you need to work with an F-150 performance specialist who can tell you all the ins & outs of your entire configuration, go over how you're running at the track, review your dyno plots & any other data you have, etc. That kind of thing can't be done on a message board, though of course it's quite natural to ask around here as F-150 Online is about the exchange of information to help all owners. It's just that this is far too involved & detailed to solve on any message board.
There's really nowhere near enough information or data in your post (or any realistic way of doing all of that here) to even begin to be able to troubleshoot, diagnose or find your problems.
Having done these conversions there can be any number of things going on, and the way it will be best diagnosed is by an experienced F-150 performance specialist. I see in your profile that you're a Ford tech, so you should be able to provide some good data with the tools you have access to, and thus be able to work well with an F-150 performance specialist to go over your vehicle.
Just guessing (and that's all it could be, a pure guess), if any of these times were run on different days, as most people tend to do, will not give accurate comparisons. No 2 days will have identical weather, temperature, humidity, baro pressure, track conditions, etc.
In a Lightning motor, just a 10 degree difference in temperature can easily mean a loss of 3 tenths on the track. And the difference between the quickest times of the year and the slowest times of the year (the difference between winter & summer) can be a 6-8 tenths or more. The Lightning's supercharger 5.4 motor & intercooler setup is very susceptible to summer heat & atmospheric changes. So the way to do comparisons at the track is to do them on the same day, under a strictly controlled before & after format. You can, if your track gives them, compare "corrected" times, but don't expect that to be extremely accurate.
We have no idea of the vehicle's configuration, what PCM is being used, was the Lightning's complete harness, fuel delivery system, all sensors, etc. used, what tranny, or things as seemingly mundane but important as how it's being staged when you run at the track, all the exact atmospheric data for each run, etc.
One thing that is helpful is to keep a log of each run, the place, date, exact time, and the temperature & humidity (at a minimum) so you can see just how your truck responds to variances even on the same day. Even if you just write it on the time slip, keep track. Heck, my Lightning can run times well into in the 11's with temps below about 85 degrees and humidity below about 70%, but you let it hit 80% or higher humidity, and/or temps anywhere near getting up into the 90's, and it slows right back down into the 12's, losing an easy half-second. Now in my case, that is because I am not running *any* enhancement to the stock intercooler, and I'm still using the stock Eaton M112 blower @ 17 PSI with no supplemental cooling spray, etc. Improving intercooler efficiency makes a big difference in hot weather in terms of running consistently quick ET's, & I haven't done that yet, so I see a BIG difference from what would seem to be relatively small changes in atmospheric conditions.
One very important point that nails us especially in summer is that the Ford COP ignition is relatively weak, you have to run very small plug gaps, and heat range is very important as well. Higher humidity just *kills* this ignition system's ability to fire the plugs under high cylinder pressure, a factor that we have to deal with every summer.
You're complaining about your tuning (or perhaps I should say, you suspect there may be an issue with the tuning), yet you say the vehicle was "dyno-tuned." Do you have all that data, including not just the A/F's but all other operational data logged during the dyno pulls, like fuel trims, MAF voltage curve, timing, IAT, ECT, load, etc.? That's what is needed, preferably overlaid on top of the dyno plot's rpm/power curve. If you don't have all of that data, you can't really know just what conditions the engine was actually operating under throughout the dyno pull(s). We like to see the dyno plot and the operational data from data logging, even if it's just using an NGS, you can write down the MAF voltage @ each sample rpm, timing at each sample rpm, etc., with every operational parameter logged, so you can see a good snapshot of just exactly what's happening at each sample point in the data logging, right on the dyno plot. That gives you a nice picture of what's really going on. If you don't have that data arranged in that manner, it's much harder to evaluate tuning parameters, IMHO, but of course different tuners have their own methods. I'm really just trying to say that you need to have all that data to know what the engine was doing while it was being tuned.
I do see very clearly where you mention running basically the same times with and without the chip - if this was done on the same day, after a proper cool-down, then this would tend to indicate that you're not getting further reductions in ET from the chip. There may be some more ET available in the tune, but then again, there just might not be. Usually you'll see at least 3+ tenths (and many times 5-7 tenths, depending on the year) reduction from running an optimized powertrain program on a Lightning, but then again, we don't know your configuration, are you using the Lightning's specific 4R100-HD tranny, or is this tied to a 4R70W, etc.
This is all really just non-specific information, some or all of which you may already know all about, so I'm most likely not being any real help to you here with my response. If you really feel you have a problem, and want to go over your situation to see if this vehicle is fully optimized for what is has done to it, you need to work with an F-150 performance specialist who can tell you all the ins & outs of your entire configuration, go over how you're running at the track, review your dyno plots & any other data you have, etc. That kind of thing can't be done on a message board, though of course it's quite natural to ask around here as F-150 Online is about the exchange of information to help all owners. It's just that this is far too involved & detailed to solve on any message board.
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
From: Monument, CO
Thanks for all that great info Mike. I know it's too difficult to discuss this on the boards. I was just trying to find out if the mods that I put on would make such a small gain. The truck is a complete L conversion, from wiring harness to rear end. PCM is a '01 L. I never got any dyno printouts from him. I did however notice that they installed a bung in my exhaust. I'm guessing they used a wide band 02 for the tune. Maybe my expectations were too high. But only seeing a .08 gain in the 1/4 with the addition of 4 lb pulley, that seems odd to me even taking the climate into consideration. The times I got for with and without the chip were on the same day, about 1/2 hour apart. I am going call the person that tuned it and discuss this with him. Maybe he is just used to tuning Mustangs. Maybe I'll call you and discuss this in further detail after I've talked to him. Plus he just bought an L, maybe he's been able to mess around and come up with some better programs. Maybe the VID block not being programmed has something to do with it too. I'll have to do some research. Thanks again. Adrian..............
Last edited by svt_sc_f150; Aug 17, 2003 at 11:43 PM.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Mar 1998
Posts: 13,385
Likes: 4
From: Virginia
Hi Adrian,
OK, sounds like you did the conversion "right" then, using all the Lightning hardware from front to rear, excellent!
On a 2001 & up Lightning motor, a 4 PSI pulley and a good tune will usually net you anywhere from 3-6 tenths off the ET's, depending on weather & track conditions, and that is *easily* within the variance for weather alone. So it really looks to me like most of your basic "problem" here is simply from comparing times run on different days, something most people do - you just can't use that data for a valid comparison, unfortunately. Remember in my last post talking about just a 10 degree difference in the right temperature range can cost you a few tenths ET on an L motor.
I have no doubt that you gained good power from the pulley and the tune - having the vehicle dyno tuned with that pulley installed, I can just about *guarantee* you that you had to have gained some nice power from this change. The tune would have to be *WAY* off for you not to have gained a very nice boost in power there, so far off that it's overall driveability would be worse. You'll usually feel the increased torque on part-throttle from the pulley change alone, that's usually the most noticeable aspect of installing a pulley, the part-throttle torque gain. But if you compare the "before" numbers in cooler weather to the "after" numbers run in warmer weather, you can basically throw those comparisons right out the window.
Make sure you're staging consistently as well, for the quickest ET's (and the easiest way to stage consistently), is to just do a shallow stage to maximize rollout.
Start noting all the conditions (temperature, humidity & baro pressure if you can get it) at the track **each time you make a pass,** not just once a day, but for each run, and you'll quickly see a pattern emerge directly related to both ambient temperatures & powertrain heat. If you do any "hot-lapping" or back to back runs either at the track or on a dyno, each successive pull or run will be a bit slower/lower, as you'll usually drop 5-8 HP each successive run or pull due to powertrain heat causing the PCM to pull timing & add more fuel. This is why when we do A/F's, we do a series of runs, because the first pull will always be the leanest, as there isn't as much heat in the powertrain yet. So the first pull with the wideband O2 in place might be 12.4:1, and the second pull at 11.5:1, and so on, until you usually bottom out at about 11.0:1 or so on most '01 & up L's.
Sounds like they did things right, by welding in that bung they went to the effort to not use a tailpipe sniffer as most do, and instead installed the O2 bung and dropped in a wideband O2 sensor ahead of the catalytic converters. That's the best way to get the A/F's, so it sounds like their basic methodology was fine, that's nice to hear. Too bad they did not give you any of the dyno plots. This is at least a good learning experiences as from now on you'll know any time you go to the dyno to make sure to tell the dyno operator that you want a printout of each pull, and all of the operational data they log as well. By the way, do you have any idea where the A/F's (Air/Fuel ratio) landed at?
The dyno plots themselves *might* have been saved to their hard drive, you can always call them to check on that. If they were saved on the hard drive, then they can always print out the plots and send them to you at any time, as it's just another file to the PC. Just a thought..............
Good luck!
OK, sounds like you did the conversion "right" then, using all the Lightning hardware from front to rear, excellent!
On a 2001 & up Lightning motor, a 4 PSI pulley and a good tune will usually net you anywhere from 3-6 tenths off the ET's, depending on weather & track conditions, and that is *easily* within the variance for weather alone. So it really looks to me like most of your basic "problem" here is simply from comparing times run on different days, something most people do - you just can't use that data for a valid comparison, unfortunately. Remember in my last post talking about just a 10 degree difference in the right temperature range can cost you a few tenths ET on an L motor.
I have no doubt that you gained good power from the pulley and the tune - having the vehicle dyno tuned with that pulley installed, I can just about *guarantee* you that you had to have gained some nice power from this change. The tune would have to be *WAY* off for you not to have gained a very nice boost in power there, so far off that it's overall driveability would be worse. You'll usually feel the increased torque on part-throttle from the pulley change alone, that's usually the most noticeable aspect of installing a pulley, the part-throttle torque gain. But if you compare the "before" numbers in cooler weather to the "after" numbers run in warmer weather, you can basically throw those comparisons right out the window.
Make sure you're staging consistently as well, for the quickest ET's (and the easiest way to stage consistently), is to just do a shallow stage to maximize rollout.
Start noting all the conditions (temperature, humidity & baro pressure if you can get it) at the track **each time you make a pass,** not just once a day, but for each run, and you'll quickly see a pattern emerge directly related to both ambient temperatures & powertrain heat. If you do any "hot-lapping" or back to back runs either at the track or on a dyno, each successive pull or run will be a bit slower/lower, as you'll usually drop 5-8 HP each successive run or pull due to powertrain heat causing the PCM to pull timing & add more fuel. This is why when we do A/F's, we do a series of runs, because the first pull will always be the leanest, as there isn't as much heat in the powertrain yet. So the first pull with the wideband O2 in place might be 12.4:1, and the second pull at 11.5:1, and so on, until you usually bottom out at about 11.0:1 or so on most '01 & up L's.
Sounds like they did things right, by welding in that bung they went to the effort to not use a tailpipe sniffer as most do, and instead installed the O2 bung and dropped in a wideband O2 sensor ahead of the catalytic converters. That's the best way to get the A/F's, so it sounds like their basic methodology was fine, that's nice to hear. Too bad they did not give you any of the dyno plots. This is at least a good learning experiences as from now on you'll know any time you go to the dyno to make sure to tell the dyno operator that you want a printout of each pull, and all of the operational data they log as well. By the way, do you have any idea where the A/F's (Air/Fuel ratio) landed at?
The dyno plots themselves *might* have been saved to their hard drive, you can always call them to check on that. If they were saved on the hard drive, then they can always print out the plots and send them to you at any time, as it's just another file to the PC. Just a thought..............
Good luck!